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Retribution Tengu OP?
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Cap James Tkirk
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#21 - 2012-10-19 16:28:55 UTC
emo kid for the win -_o'
Justin Valentine
Mickey Mouse Club
#22 - 2012-10-19 20:46:08 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
jesus F christ. ok FINE. apparently being stupid pays out nowadays. so here is a short selection of popular missions that include rats that are 60k+ from warpin:
- The Assault (Guristas, Serpentis, Minmatar)
- The Blockade (Angel, Serpentis, Sansha, Blood, DED)
- Dread Pirate Scarlet
- Silence the Informant
- Pirate Invasion (Angel, Sansha)
- Gone Berserk
- Vengeance(Angel, Blood, Serpentis, ...)
- The [X] Spies (Angel, Serpentis, Guristas, Sansha, Blood)
- Massive Attack (several factions)
- Mordus Headhuunters
- The Damsel in Distress
- [X] Extravaganza (Angel, Guristas, Serpentis, ...)
- Worlds Collide
- Enemies Abound
- Duo of Death (all pirate factions)
- Unauthorized Military Presence (various factions)
- Infiltrated outposts
- Intercept the Saboteurs
- Right Hand of Zazzmatazz
- The Score
- Smuggler Interception (Angel, Blood)
.
.
.

if you look closely, you will notice that almost all lucrative missions are in this list, and i did not even mention the storylines. now you can continue being an emo kid in denial or accept the fact that 30km HAMs will not get you anywhere in lvl4s.

OK thank you very much for the effort in compiling this list but most of these missions once you warp in it takes 10 seconds to get into range and hit the targets for the rest of the mission without 30km being an issue eg..

- [X] Extravaganza (Angel, Guristas, Serpentis, ...)
- Worlds Collide

These missions pretty much will need next to no travel time once you have began firing, you can be hitting 1 target and closing in on the next without stopping firing.
I still beleive the 1k dps will show itself to be the better choice ( will be killing battle cruiser up twice as fast )

Lastly do you blitz or grind these missions? I was running about 4 certain missions and declining the rest back in my mission days.

As the the emo kid comment, why? just why?
Weak to insult someone who you do not know in any shape or form, you are just pathetic for even going down this road!
Tragedy
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-10-20 00:40:01 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
jesus F christ. ok FINE. apparently being stupid pays out nowadays. so here is a short selection of popular missions that include rats that are 60k+ from warpin:
- The Assault (Guristas, Serpentis, Minmatar)
- The Blockade (Angel, Serpentis, Sansha, Blood, DED)
- Dread Pirate Scarlet
- Silence the Informant
- Pirate Invasion (Angel, Sansha)
- Gone Berserk
- Vengeance(Angel, Blood, Serpentis, ...)
- The [X] Spies (Angel, Serpentis, Guristas, Sansha, Blood)
- Massive Attack (several factions)
- Mordus Headhuunters
- The Damsel in Distress
- [X] Extravaganza (Angel, Guristas, Serpentis, ...)
- Worlds Collide
- Enemies Abound
- Duo of Death (all pirate factions)
- Unauthorized Military Presence (various factions)
- Infiltrated outposts
- Intercept the Saboteurs
- Right Hand of Zazzmatazz
- The Score
- Smuggler Interception (Angel, Blood)
.
.
.

if you look closely, you will notice that almost all lucrative missions are in this list, and i did not even mention the storylines. now you can continue being an emo kid in denial or accept the fact that 30km HAMs will not get you anywhere in lvl4s.

You land withing 20kms of all rats in vengeance, damsel in distress all rats are within about 25, the assault they're all in a group so your flight time to get in range would be about 30 seconds and from then on you're in range the entire mission, same with many of the others you listed.

All of you need to quit crying about Hmls being brought in line with other medium long range weapon systems. Its getting old.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-10-20 07:08:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
Justin Valentine wrote:
OK thank you very much for the effort in compiling this list but most of these missions once you warp in it takes 10 seconds to get into range and hit the targets for the rest of the mission without 30km being an issue eg..

- [X] Extravaganza (Angel, Guristas, Serpentis, ...)
- Worlds Collide

These missions pretty much will need next to no travel time once you have began firing, you can be hitting 1 target and closing in on the next without stopping firing.
I still beleive the 1k dps will show itself to be the better choice ( will be killing battle cruiser up twice as fast )

Lastly do you blitz or grind these missions? I was running about 4 certain missions and declining the rest back in my mission days.

As the the emo kid comment, why? just why?
Weak to insult someone who you do not know in any shape or form, you are just pathetic for even going down this road!

i don't even know why i'm still answering...
1. in 10 seconds, your average mission tengu will travel about 4km or less, considering that you have a ~6sec align time.
2. you will not kill battlecruisers twice as fast. a correctly setup tengu can twoshot battlecruisers with almost no overdamage, that's one pop every 8 seconds.
3. if you are not blitzing in a tengu, you're doing it wrong. there are several ships that bring larger raw dps for burning rats faster. the whole point is to warp in, kill the serpentis spies ~80km out and warp out 30 seconds later without wasting any more time.
4. if you have to fly towards your targets, chances are, you will have to fly back again to use a warp gate.
5. as for the emo kid comment, thank you for confirming it.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2012-10-22 08:07:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Daniel Plain wrote:
i don't even know why i'm still answering...

Probably because you are so entitled to your ISK/LP printing that was never the point of Tengu introduction.

Daniel Plain wrote:
1. in 10 seconds, your average mission tengu will travel about 4km or less, considering that you have a ~6sec align time.
2. you will not kill battlecruisers twice as fast. a correctly setup tengu can twoshot battlecruisers with almost no overdamage, that's one pop every 8 seconds.
3. if you are not blitzing in a tengu, you're doing it wrong. there are several ships that bring larger raw dps for burning rats faster. the whole point is to warp in, kill the serpentis spies ~80km out and warp out 30 seconds later without wasting any more time.

If you feel that blitzing missions without having to tank entire room for meaningful time is "working as intended", then I have bad news for you...

Daniel Plain wrote:
5. as for the emo kid comment, thank you for confirming it.

...said someone who can't stop crying over HMLs for more than a month already.

As for OP, that is indeed gonna be great ship for full cleanup mission running for ones who do that. Blitzers can still get something like Machariel, doing that with this ship requires some piloting and tank management though, otherwise it's not that effective.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#26 - 2012-10-22 11:44:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
i don't even know why i'm still answering...

Probably because you are so entitled to your ISK/LP printing that was never the point of Tengu introduction.

1. look up the meaning of the world 'entitled' to understand how your statement makes no sense.
2. who said that the tengu was not meant for running missions? and even if, how would that be relevant? when the radar was invented, they did not have microwaves in mind, but now we have them and it is great to have them.
3. please excuse the **** out of me for enjoying lvl4 missions or as you call it "isk/LP printing".

Quote:
If you feel that blitzing missions without having to tank entire room for meaningful time is "working as intended", then I have bad news for you...

yes, please tell me how to do missions the right way, because how else would i know? stupid me optimizing my income by specializing and optimizing my mission times, how dare i!?

Quote:
...said someone who can't stop crying over HMLs for more than a month already.

i like how every time someone criticizes a nerf, the trolls instantly crawl out of their holes and yell 'crybaby' without even taking a look at the argument itself. in your head, i'm probably literally crying and cutting my wrists because someone nerfed my beloved tengu, whereas in reality all i ever pointed out is that the HML nerf is not justified and makes the game worse, whereas a direct nerf to the drake and tengu hulls would do the opposite.

Quote:
As for OP, that is indeed gonna be great ship for full cleanup mission running for ones who do that. [...]


you are wrong. i will repeat it, so that in one year, i can link to this post whenever i see you posting nonsense to demonstrate your record of bad predictions: you are wrong.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-10-22 12:54:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Daniel Plain wrote:
2. who said that the tengu was not meant for running missions? and even if, how would that be relevant? when the radar was invented, they did not have microwaves in mind, but now we have them and it is great to have them.
3. please excuse the **** out of me for enjoying lvl4 missions or as you call it "isk/LP printing".

[...]

yes, please tell me how to do missions the right way, because how else would i know? stupid me optimizing my income by specializing and optimizing my mission times, how dare i!?

You're not getting my point.
You are optimizing, and it's totally right thing to do. However, it doesn't mean that one day CCP won't look upon that and say "well, that should not happen becuse *insert any reasoning here, or just plain just because*". Then apply nerfstick. Of cource after that you will have to make your calculations again, try one ship and another, to find the new optimal way of doing missions. No guarantees on achieving pre-patch effictiency though, especaially with the same ship.

Back to point 2, IRL examples aren't really applied to games. For example, I've never seen nerfbats IRL.

Daniel Plain wrote:
i like how every time someone criticizes a nerf, the trolls instantly crawl out of their holes and yell 'crybaby' without even taking a look at the argument itself. in your head, i'm probably literally crying and cutting my wrists because someone nerfed my beloved tengu, whereas in reality all i ever pointed out is that the HML nerf is not justified and makes the game worse, whereas a direct nerf to the drake and tengu hulls would do the opposite.

You see, I'm not tracking your posts all over the forum, but those I see are not arguments on the matter. You wouldn't see me calling names in threads where you actually explain your ideas.

By the way, Drake and Tengu already scheduled to be hit with overhaul, just not this winter, unless situation changes in near future. Other HML platforms will also see attention, some of them even this winter. No worries there.

Daniel Plain wrote:
Quote:
As for OP, that is indeed gonna be great ship for full cleanup mission running for ones who do that. [...]


you are wrong. i will repeat it, so that in one year, i can link to this post whenever i see you posting nonsense to demonstrate your record of bad predictions: you are wrong.

You know, I don't have my standards too high, like "The best = great, everything else = crap". And I haven't said that I believe HAM Tengu to be the best.
For that matter, I'm pretty sure that Tengus will be still among the best ships for missioning. Especially among its class. Maybe I'm wrong, then you are free to call me out on that. As I've stated, I'm totally fine with accepting things.

P.S. I suppose I really have to browse through your posts arguing that HMLs are fine, just to see how, for once, medium rails and beams are in line with current (or even post-nerf) HMLs. Always nice to educate oneself.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Demolishar
United Aggression
#28 - 2012-10-22 15:04:23 UTC
So fit those rigs that make missile go further.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-10-22 17:00:10 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
3. please excuse the **** out of me for enjoying lvl4 missions or as you call it "isk/LP printing".


You could do it more efficiently in a battleship.
mama guru
Yazatas.
#30 - 2012-10-22 18:10:40 UTC  |  Edited by: mama guru
Daniel Plain wrote:
Angry Carebear is Angry



Take a chill pill and relax, Hams are getting buffed and heavies nerfed quite conciderably.

I think a Winter patch HAM tengu with range rigs can contend with a HML tengu once the patch hits.

Instead of 750 HML dps at 110km vs 950 HAM dps at 45km we will probablyy see 680ish vs 1000+ at around 80km vs 50-60km.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
GreenSeed
#31 - 2012-10-22 18:17:41 UTC
that dps gain is crap compared to the stupid dps gain that the ndomi got after drone mods. and ppl still dont fly ndomis.
mama guru
Yazatas.
#32 - 2012-10-22 18:28:55 UTC  |  Edited by: mama guru
GreenSeed wrote:
that dps gain is crap compared to the stupid dps gain that the ndomi got after drone mods. and ppl still dont fly ndomis.



Drone ships are still beat by missiles and turrets any day of the week, The day sentries orbit you drone ships are viable competition to the CNR/Tengu/Mach/Vargur. I've flown the ndomi/ishtar/rattlesnake and i was not impressed.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#33 - 2012-10-22 18:31:03 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
that dps gain is crap compared to the stupid dps gain that the ndomi got after drone mods. and ppl still dont fly ndomis.



Preference more than anything else. Domi = having to play with and fly back to stationary drones. Similar to the reason a lot of people try to use T3's and Command ships for L4's over Marauders and BS's (I am guilty of this as well, I do most of my L4's in my Legion, which I am repeatedly told is not optimum). The big ships are sloooow.

Does not mean they are not effective, or in many cases, more effective.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#34 - 2012-10-22 23:17:57 UTC
I don't have numbers to back it up, but I agree with Daniel, I have both a HAM and HML tengu for missions and I've flown both extensively but I found over time that the HML one outperformed the HAM one in most cases and eventually I turned my HAM tengu into a HML tengu, I kill all the rats in missions for bounty.

However I do have HML implants and my Tengus hit 800dps with fury, come the patch the bump down in damage and damage application might put HAM tengu on par with HML tengu for missions, but as of right now, HML Tengu wipes the floor with HAM Tengu for L4s.

That all being said, Mach/NM/Varg are all better for bounty killing missions. Guns are just better.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-10-23 07:45:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Whiite
Justin Valentine wrote:
So the Tengu is my Hi-sec pve ship of choice, the HML missile changes are going to really hurt, or are they?

Playing with EFT Retribution found Here I have come up with this fit-

[Tengu, New Setup 1]
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System

Target Painter II
Target Painter II
Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
Pith A-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Pithum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
10MN Afterburner II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir

I know it's expensive, gank magnet ect.. But compared to the current HML fit we gain-

(Implants)
1042 dps - 790
103 exp radius - 180!
137 exp velocity - 167.
30 range - 113

The range would be the only thing we lose but gaining so much dps and the far smaller explosion radius.
With the agility and speed of a Tengu, max damage at 30km the Range isn't really an issue or is it?
If/When they include the Tracking mods it will become even better.

Have Ham's become Viable and is the Tengu about to become better at what it does in Level 4 missions?




Although you're working with rather shady numbers to prove your point, damage HAM - HM, Exp radius/ Velocity new HAM old HAM, Range HAM- HM again.

I'll believe HAM will be VIable as a Mission ship, just not your fit. Ease down a little on the eplosion radius and fit a range rigg, TP's total waist of midslots, switch ammo for frigates CN_scorge will take care of them.

The 30km range is problomatic because the Tengu is speed tanked and getting close means more tiem to get to your target, wich gives the bigger ships more time to get to you, Webbing is the most serious thread to a Tengu, so I'd make sure I'd get a little more range in order to take the webbers out before they get you.

and do something that is not new to most missile pilots, switch ammo more often, action for small ship and T2 for larger.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#36 - 2012-10-23 11:44:14 UTC
mama guru wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Angry Carebear is Angry



Take a chill pill and relax, Hams are getting buffed and heavies nerfed quite conciderably.

I think a Winter patch HAM tengu with range rigs can contend with a HML tengu once the patch hits.

Instead of 750 HML dps at 110km vs 950 HAM dps at 45km we will probablyy see 680ish vs 1000+ at around 80km vs 50-60km.


gotta love 'special' people. show me where i am angry. or how i am a 'carebear' for that matter. also while we're at it please show me the HAMgu that will put 1k DPS out to 60km. then we talk. oh and btw in case you didn't know: range rigs are not really an option if you want to be hitting frigates and spider drones for decent damage.

I should buy an Ishtar.
mama guru
Yazatas.
#37 - 2012-10-23 13:49:34 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
mama guru wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Angry Carebear is Angry



Take a chill pill and relax, Hams are getting buffed and heavies nerfed quite conciderably.

I think a Winter patch HAM tengu with range rigs can contend with a HML tengu once the patch hits.

Instead of 750 HML dps at 110km vs 950 HAM dps at 45km we will probablyy see 680ish vs 1000+ at around 80km vs 50-60km.


gotta love 'special' people. show me where i am angry. or how i am a 'carebear' for that matter. also while we're at it please show me the HAMgu that will put 1k DPS out to 60km. then we talk. oh and btw in case you didn't know: range rigs are not really an option if you want to be hitting frigates and spider drones for decent damage.


What part of HML Nerf and HAM Buff slipped your mind?

and what makes me 'special' i wonder? The fact that i take future changes into account when planning ahead?

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-10-23 14:25:32 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
mama guru wrote:
[quote=Daniel Plain]Angry Carebear is Angry


: range rigs are not really an option if you want to be hitting frigates and spider drones for decent damage.



Caldari Navy HAM, with GMP 5 will have a an Explosion Radius close to 76 meters, now you can either place a rigor because of frigates need a extra volly or you put in a range and Rof riggs which work on all enemies.

76 meter radius will rid you of all frigates that might want to kill you.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#39 - 2012-10-23 15:35:17 UTC
mama guru wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
mama guru wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Angry Carebear is Angry



Take a chill pill and relax, Hams are getting buffed and heavies nerfed quite conciderably.

I think a Winter patch HAM tengu with range rigs can contend with a HML tengu once the patch hits.

Instead of 750 HML dps at 110km vs 950 HAM dps at 45km we will probablyy see 680ish vs 1000+ at around 80km vs 50-60km.


gotta love 'special' people. show me where i am angry. or how i am a 'carebear' for that matter. also while we're at it please show me the HAMgu that will put 1k DPS out to 60km. then we talk. oh and btw in case you didn't know: range rigs are not really an option if you want to be hitting frigates and spider drones for decent damage.


What part of HML Nerf and HAM Buff slipped your mind?

and what makes me 'special' i wonder? The fact that i take future changes into account when planning ahead?


again, show me the HAMgu that will project 1k dps out to 60km, because with the current state of proposed changes, you will have only one or the other(if any).

I should buy an Ishtar.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#40 - 2012-10-23 15:37:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
Mike Whiite wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
mama guru wrote:
[quote=Daniel Plain]Angry Carebear is Angry


: range rigs are not really an option if you want to be hitting frigates and spider drones for decent damage.



Caldari Navy HAM, with GMP 5 will have a an Explosion Radius close to 76 meters, now you can either place a rigor because of frigates need a extra volly or you put in a range and Rof riggs which work on all enemies.

76 meter radius will rid you of all frigates that might want to kill you.


i stand corrected on that one; i forgot about the rigor and GMP changes. i would still like to see a fit that will project decent DPS to decent ranges. with my current EFT-fu, HAMs will get nowhere near a decent range.

I should buy an Ishtar.