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So the DEVs are listening now.

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#21 - 2011-10-18 20:45:45 UTC
Holy crap people. I fully support leveling the playing field between tiers -- no one would be happier to see a few more T1 BCs and a worthwhile T1 laser cruiser -- but could you pretty please stop throwing around specialized legal terms like you know what they mean?
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#22 - 2011-10-18 22:30:54 UTC
NoLimit Soldier wrote:
Sydney Nelson wrote:
NoLimit Soldier wrote:

Because you need a better dictionary, 3rd entry for "prejudice" :

"Harm or injury that results or may result from some action or judgment"

I spent a few minutes looking on google for your definition of prejudice, and I can't seem to find it anywhere.
Maybe you can post a link?

For argument's sake, let's just use your definition of prejudice and insert it into your statement:
"I beg to differ with 'Harm or injury that results or may result from some action or judgment'"
Sure, that makes sense...
I'm pretty dumb (as you say), maybe you could explain to me what you were trying to say?

Also I'm pretty sure you can't just make up numbers to support your argument. I'm not even a care bear and I know 20MIL an hour is horrid.

I didn't make that number up. That's what most people I've talked-with make running lvl4s. Some people exagerate hugely, or forget to account for time spent selling loot, selling things bought from the LP store etc.

I'd say 20mil/hour isn't far-off for most players. Sure, if you bust your ass, and work like 4 agents at the same time, you can do better, but there again, that's what Care Bears who play the game FREQUENTLY do. The casual player doesn't do that. They log-in, run a couple missions, salvage, sell loot, etc.

So, yeah. Let's say a casual player makes about 20mil/hour and a frequent player makes more like 40mil/hour.
I think you can see where I'm going with this...

On the whole it doesn't really matter though. The RATIO of what a casual player makes vs what a frequent player makes will still remain the same REGARDLESS of total income. (1:7 for a weekly vs daily player.)
UNLESS of course we factor-in the great point you brought-up about how much more effecient frequent players are vs casual players.

[quote=Sydney Nelson]

Using your provided ship-price examples...
Oops! It seems you "accidentally" left-out the lower-tier frigs which are MUCH cheaper. (That was the whole point of the debate right?)
Seems you also left-out the first couple tiers of Cruisers, and the top tier of BS. (Biased info much?)

Jesus you have be the biggest tool ever. My whole argument is that some ships are sub-par for no reason and you mention that I left out the 2 cruisers in the caldari line up that HAVE A CLEAR AND DEFINED ROLE. The blackbird and Osprey? Really?

Again with the insults... Don't get mad, we're just debating, not a big deal...
I will be honest, I probably shouldn't discuss Caldari ships with you as I don't fly Caldari. I fly mostly Galente.
Having said that, If I WAS a new player running missions with Caldari ships, stuck on lvl1s and 2s because I can't do lvl3s with my frig, I would be more inclined to pick the Osprey over the Caracal because of the 500k price difference. That 500k means probably 2 weeks extra to get-into lvl3s for me. By having that Osprey, I can now carefully run lvl3s and make ISK faster. Then I can upgrade to a Caracal faster than if I had stuck with my frig on 1s and 2s and skipped the Osprey all-together. Having cheaper lower-tier ships, helps new players immensely.

I only put frigates in there for comparison considering you kind of get them for free when you start out.

They're not free. You have to spend time running missions to get them. More time if you're a casual player.

[quote=Sydney Nelson]
If the Caracal was "just as good" as the Moa, it would cost about the same. If they cost about the same, it would mean about an extra month for a starting player to get into a cruiser.

Again, my ignorance of Caldari ships prompted this poor example. Sorry

This is where I really lost it. You really have no idea what game you are even playing do you? The caracal is 100x better at runing missions than the moa. And not only that, it isn't the demand for this T1 piece of poop that determines the cost. It is the PRODUCTION COST. I know you don't play this game but a few hours a week but come on.

Caracal vs Moa Production Cost.
338,237 vs 608,212
Pyerite ...

You're missing my point.
If you were to make the "useless" tier 1 ships better. CCP would HAVE to make them cost more (by increasing production cost).
Otherwise everyone would use the cheaper ship with equal performance and the more expensive ship would get no use.
(Which ironically, is what has seemed to happen with the Caracal and Moa.)
So, by your logic we should either create more of these situations, or make all of the ships in the same class cost the same.

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make sense. You have hundreds of ships to choose from, faction, T2, all sorts of specialized stuff... And you think CCP should take all the cheaper, underpowered, "useless" ships and change them into something new players can't afford anymore?
For what?
Because you don't already have enough to choose from?

You're suggesting putting a hurt on the new guys, so you can have more ships that you feel are "usefull".

By that logic, we should get rid of all the economy cars in the world, and make them all into Ferraris, Lambos, Bentleys, etc. So that the rich-folk have more toys to play-with. "F- everybody else, that Camry is useless, let's turn it into a M5. If you can't afford-it, you can walk."

The logical solution would be for CCP to introduce more T2, and faction versions of the bigger ships, and some new big ships.
They seem to be doing something like this with the Tornado.

Yeah, I "don't even play" this game..
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#23 - 2011-10-19 16:08:06 UTC
NoLimit Soldier wrote:
Headerman wrote:
I beg to differ, pricing is VERY important for newbies up to several months when they can run L4's on their own. People still use cheaper ships, and some of them like the Cyclone are pretty underrated as it is.

The only thing cost has ever determined is the HULL SIZE/TECH LEVEL. I have never met some one who said they couldn't afford a moa so they bought a caracal. Or couldn't afford a drake so they went ferox. Or scorp instead of raven.

Wierd, because I know loads.

I know pilots who bought Scorpions to run L4s because Ravens would take them a long while more of running L3s in a Caracal to achieve. I know people who bought Ospreys and mined their way to their first Caracal...

The Tier 2 Battlecruisers were what changed that - suddenly the Drake allowed missile pilots to fit a tank as well as damage and therefore to stroll through L3s rather than kiting them and warping out when things got too close, similarly with the Myrm and drones. The Hurricane and Harb had a lesser, but still significant effect over the Cyclone and Proph...
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