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Dev Blog: Fast Forward

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Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#281 - 2012-10-23 07:09:18 UTC
Aww.. and I was hoping to make some ISK off the current system; then my computer broke, and now it'll be theoretically much more difficult Cry

Constructively:

Interesting changes. I can see this ending up being one FW with all upgrades and being uncontestable though. Probably back to Amarr? No idea really, but if maxing upgrade tiers is where the ISK is, you can bet one FW Militia is going to do it and make sure it stays that way.

That's good for conflict initially, but once achieved, will it remain so? I can't say for sure, but defensive plexing will be where the ISK is now apparently. Should be interesting to see how it turns out.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#282 - 2012-10-23 07:44:51 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
SURPRISE!


not empty quoting

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#283 - 2012-10-23 07:56:05 UTC
So after retribution... Will CCP finally be able to do something about the rest of low sec out of FW?


Saaaay, for dedicated low sec pvpers who feel that its highly unfair that they are being punished for only wanting to pvp without ratting?

Adding some benefits to being -10 along with the long heap of flaws? ^^ Some system? Yes? Maybe?

I don't think any playergroup in eve has been waiting as long for some attention...

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

I BuildStuffs
Dark Energy LLC
#284 - 2012-10-23 08:11:22 UTC
kalath1032 wrote:
Well done CCP, you just handed total control of the warzone to the Gallenteans forever!



Should of plexed bro so now it's my job to drop t3 fleets on your bunker bashing fleets
Sui'Djin
State War Academy
Caldari State
#285 - 2012-10-23 08:15:32 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
I still don't like the idea of plexes showing up on the overview for everyone, especially if there's going to be a clock next to it showing it counting down (btw, don't recall seeing that suggested in any of the FW threads).
Pirates camping plexes is a great source of pvp.


fully agreed
Sui'Djin
State War Academy
Caldari State
#286 - 2012-10-23 08:33:37 UTC
Weitkunat wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:
I personally think the current tier system encourages conflict. Why not change everything BUT the tier system?

The new upgrade system is good, there are now measures to stop overplexing, and now gunless frigate noobs will no longer easily do them.

The current tier system will make it so that militias will have to go in fierce fighting to get better rewards.


I forsee the value of FW LP to be pennies. The problem I saw was that it was too easy to do for the amount you could make.

Honestly I'd stay in FW even if there was zero reward. PVP is fun.


way to go, very much appreciated. There is more in FW than farming. At least some people remember that ...
Luke Visteen
#287 - 2012-10-23 08:51:43 UTC
Imagine thousands of flopping fish.

Now relate that image to gunless merlins and the new FW changes.

.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#288 - 2012-10-23 09:03:08 UTC
I don't know if anybody has brought this up before but:

Lets assume our warzone is at its original state:

This puts Minmatar at 42 systems and amarr at 28 systems. (The situation is eve worse for amarr atm. They are working hard before DT though so that they'll be somehow closer to these numbers)

Even at original state:
42*6= 252 (Borderline T4)
28*6= 168 (Borderline T2)

Even if Amarrians manage to get to original state, max they can get will be T2 where as we can push our systems to T4 (and it is much harder to degrade systems now) and enjoy %150 gains in LP

So to compete with us Amarrians need to hold some of our systems and settle there, which is quite hard because of the geography of the region. Furthermore there is the difference of 0.7% gains vs 1% gains in original homelands.

Now....I hate amarrians...every single one of them...

But this pattern will just turn into a snowball, which will end with a permanent T5 holding minmatar militia.

...and this is not really what CCP would want.

Link to an amarrian post(yuck!) here is a good way to rebalance amarr / minmatar FW zone.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#289 - 2012-10-23 09:03:41 UTC
One thing i've missed (and it may have been addressed already), but what's happening to the LP stores themselves? Are the cashout prices going to be brought more or less equivalent with current non-FW LP stores, since they don't change with warzone control anymore?

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#290 - 2012-10-23 09:18:58 UTC
Deerin wrote:


Now....I hate amarrians...every single one of them...

But this pattern will just turn into a snowball, which will end with a permanent T5 holding minmatar militia.

...and this is not really what CCP would want.



They MUST have considered this!
But I also can't see how this should be working.

Assume somehow one faction gets to T5.
Then their enemies have to push back at 50% LP gains while the defenders get up to 325%*75%=243,75% - even in a system that is only contested 50% thats twice as much as the attacker gets.

Then there is this "diminishing returns" argument:
Fozzie states that there will be a donation tax of about 70% at tier 5.
At tier 5 you get 325% LP. If you donate, only 30% of that will effectively be used to upgrade the system - 325%*30%=97,5%. Basically, you need the same amount of work to upgrade a system like without tax+multiplier.
If I am not completely wrong and the tax is not 0% at lower tiers, it will still be EASIER to upgrade systems on tier 5 (i.e. less work) than on lower tiers.

So my best guess is: static warzone control, one faction at tier 4/5 and the farmers are running missions for hilarious amounts of LP.
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#291 - 2012-10-23 09:28:03 UTC
Just realized my post sounds a bit pessimistic. ^^

I am actually very happy that CCP addresses the current issues and does the rollout faster than planned.
Nevertheless, I try to forecast the behaviour of EVE players regarding potential flaws of the new system. So lets see how things turn out...
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#292 - 2012-10-23 09:36:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Iris Bravemount
Ok, I have spent the night thinking about this. Here are my conclusions.

Having fixed LP store prices should fix cash out spiking, which is a good thing.

AFK plexing sucks. Forcing players to kill the rats fixes it for offensive plexing. So this is a good thing.

As a consequence, defensive plexing will be a lot easier than offensive plexing, since it can (and will) still be done afk in a gunless frig. The suggested change to the formula, lowering the LP yield as system vulnerability is good. However, def plexing may still yield up to 75% the LP of offensive plexing, while not even requiring 50% the effort. This is a bad thing.

Having the winning side earning up 6.5 times the LP of the losing side makes it impossible for the losing side to recover. This is a bad thing.

Having an LP tax is frustrating and makes no sense from a "lore" perspective. This is a bad thing.

I have a short set of suggestions that may keep the above good things while fixing the above bad things:

First of all, replace this:

Quote:
New system is:

Tier1: LP gains reduced by 50%

Tier2: LP gains staying the same

Tier3: LP gains increased by 75%

Tier4: LP gains increased by 150%

Tier5: LP gains increased by 225%

A heavy tax is applied to LP donations in higher tiers.


with this:

Quote:
More reasonable system is:

Tier1: LP gains staying the same

Tier2: LP gains increased by 50%

Tier3: LP gains increased by 100%

Tier4: LP gains increased by 150%

Tier5: LP gains increased by 200%

A light tax is applied to LP donations in higher tiers.


And add the following rules:

Quote:
LP multiplier for offensive plexing:

Tier1: LP gains increased by 225%

Tier2: LP gains increased by 125%

Tier3: LP gains increased by 50%

Tier4: LP gains staying the same

Tier5: LP gains decreased by 50%

LP multiplier for defensive plexing:

Tier1: LP gains decreased by 25%

Tier2: LP gains staying the same

Tier3: LP gains increased by 25%

Tier4: LP gains increased by 75%

Tier5: LP gains increased by 175%


This would make sense and create some more balance (and in a less artificial way than an LP tax).

"We're at warzone control t4? Ok guys, It's time to defend our stuff and go back to business (missions)."

"What? We're at t1? Guys, we really need to grab some land!"

Please acknowledge that you read this team game of drones and Hans, even if you don't agree.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#293 - 2012-10-23 09:38:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Deerin wrote:
..But this pattern will just turn into a snowball, which will end with a permanent T5 holding minmatar militia...

Welcome to my world, been trying to get this point across to the decision makers in Iceland for years so all I can say is "good luck with that", the geography and "starting point" is stupidly lopsided on our front. The result of existing lowsec having been hijacked to serve FW instead of the Caldari solution which spawned an entire region tailor made for the purpose.
Edward Olmops wrote:
They MUST have considered this!...

You'd think. As I said, I have been requesting a revision of the Amarr/Shakorite map for what is literally years .. was bad before when it was just for honour/glory/RP but after wallets entered the picture the end result became a foregone conclusion.
Edward Olmops wrote:
Just realized my post sounds a bit pessimistic. ^^..

Logic has a tendency to come across that way, so don't fret Big smile

Human behaviour, especially when massed, is not rocket science .. predictable is what we are.

@Loads of people: With regards to idea of enemy NPC forces automagically appearing in a defensive plex .. WTF?!?
You first go out of your way to create a problem which you then try to sort by potentially creating even more, job security is important and all but holy crap.
I is like you deliberately and willingly gave away the cylinder and when you realised there was no longer anything to fit into the round hole you want to take a sledgehammer to the square peg to force it down.

The damn problem is LP for defensive plexing, not the fact that it can be done with 1-day gunless alts.
- Incentive ought to rest in the system, make space worth holding/defending.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#294 - 2012-10-23 09:42:40 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD TYPE40
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Quick clarification: With the patch tomorrow we will be reducing the over-vulnerability of many systems so that they cannot be defensively farmed for extensive periods of time after the deployment, and that with concerted effort each side can influence the vulnerability of systems in their warzone without being forced to use alts in the opposing side.


Merritoff wrote:
CCP is working via a variety of methods to bring the price of PLEX down, and FW has been identified as an area that can help the process along.
Can you elaborate on this comment in the blog? I am sure I am not only one with a ... limited period of vested interest.

The only method I'll be discussing at this time if FW changes, but rest assured that the price of PLEX is something that the Eve Central Bank is keeping a close eye on.


*snip* no one is going to defend systems for isk because LP is pretty much worthless *snip*


EDIT: You are more than welcome to discuss this matter, but in future I ask you to refrain from rumour-mongering and from hurling insults at CCP staff - ISD Type40.
Generals4
#295 - 2012-10-23 10:02:12 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD TYPE40
Bad Messenger wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Quick clarification: With the patch tomorrow we will be reducing the over-vulnerability of many systems so that they cannot be defensively farmed for extensive periods of time after the deployment, and that with concerted effort each side can influence the vulnerability of systems in their warzone without being forced to use alts in the opposing side.


Merritoff wrote:
CCP is working via a variety of methods to bring the price of PLEX down, and FW has been identified as an area that can help the process along.
Can you elaborate on this comment in the blog? I am sure I am not only one with a ... limited period of vested interest.

The only method I'll be discussing at this time if FW changes, but rest assured that the price of PLEX is something that the Eve Central Bank is keeping a close eye on.


*snip* no one is going to defend systems for isk because LP is pretty much worthless *snip*.


I second this statement.
Reducing the vulnerability is just going to **** up amarr and caldari. Defensive plexing will only give 75% of the pay out of offensive plexes and the LP will be worth 4x less. Why would Minnies and Galls waste their time defensively plexing? And what made you think those vulnerable systems wouldn't be flipped over before they could be over-farmed (assuming they would actually waste their time defensively plexing them).

I truly hope you will rethink that because it's plain silly.


EDIT: Excuse me, just had to edit that quoted post - ISD Type40.

_-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. _
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#296 - 2012-10-23 10:24:42 UTC
Please make it so that defending NPC's have a chance to use warp scramble or disruptors. This at least gives us a chance to catch the solo farmers (Which will remain, regardless of whether they now have to kill the NPC's, which is a bonus for sure, but still)

This would encourage teamwork and make PvP more likely and farming solo a darn sight more risky.

The chance of them being scrambled or disrupted could be tied to upgrade level of the system, to further encourage upgrading.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Mc Stealth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#297 - 2012-10-23 10:56:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mc Stealth
I guess they finally saw the screenies of people having stacks of implants worth 100s of billions. Again, the sheer incompetence of ccp when it comes to the economy. It boggles the mind. First of all, FW should be about PVP!!!! People all over eve do pvp without any financial inventives. FW should enable pvp and make it easier to get fights. You only add money to attract carebears, who you think will be targets for the hardcore pvpers. But instead you end up adding way too much isk and people forgot all about pvp. Now you've made a mockery of every other profession in eve, people who have spent years building empires only to be outearned by people taking advantage of ccps incompetence. All you have to do is listen to the players.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#298 - 2012-10-23 11:21:18 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
You really are stupid, no one is going to defend systems for isk because LP is pretty much worthless, but you really favor minmatar and gallente on this change by making sure that they manage to defend several systems from vulnerable to contested.

Maximize the fuckup ! Well done, CCP should really kick some devs who 1st made horrible isk farm and then they fix it by favoring some sides that happend to be represented by current CSM members.


It's better for them to take the hatchet to the massive LP faucet and then address any imbalances in future iterations than to delay fixing the massive LP faucet because of imbalances that a fix is likely to create. ~hth~

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#299 - 2012-10-23 11:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Bad Messenger
Andski wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
You really are stupid, no one is going to defend systems for isk because LP is pretty much worthless, but you really favor minmatar and gallente on this change by making sure that they manage to defend several systems from vulnerable to contested.

Maximize the fuckup ! Well done, CCP should really kick some devs who 1st made horrible isk farm and then they fix it by favoring some sides that happend to be represented by current CSM members.


It's better for them to take the hatchet to the massive LP faucet and then address any imbalances in future iterations than to delay fixing the massive LP faucet because of imbalances that a fix is likely to create. ~hth~


i am sure you can fix lp faucet without ******* up possibility to adapt

It is almost same that thinking theoretical situation where example goons will lose all systems soon, but CCP comes and makes patch less than 24h warning and saves goons.

Who will accept that ?

CCP says clearly that no point to play this game because we will **** up it and do not give you time to adapt.
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#300 - 2012-10-23 11:32:10 UTC

I approve of this product and/or service.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli