These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Why a high sec nerf is good for industrialists.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#61 - 2012-10-22 20:19:12 UTC
Robert De'Arneth wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:
Why not create more industry PvP and just reduce the availability of all high-sec minerals by 5% or so?
Systems that have stations would be stripped out a lot faster, and corps would need to increase their membership in order to accommodate mining setups that allow for higher yield in systems with no stations (boost orca, hauling orca, mining ships, etc.).
This wouldn't necessarily drive them into low-sec, but it would spread things out a bit more, and make high-sec industry require a little more planning.


Have you polled every player who plays this game? I keep seeing people say high sec is broken, yet a clear fact says that over 60% of the paying customers like to play in high sec, no one who has ever said nerf high sec has proven it is broken to all of those people. CCP made the sandbox, 60% of the player base plays in that part of the game. You may not like what they do, but I am betting the majority of players in the game will say they are fine with high sec.



I did not state that high-sec was broken. If anything is "broken" it's low-sec.
The primary focus of my suggestion is actually to increase mineral prices due to scarcity, thus removing the need for doing things like tweaking station refining, and manufacturing prices, slot amounts, etc.
Additionally, encouraging the use of high-sec systems which do not have stations in them creates a large problem for bots, because the solo bot miner has a substantial increase in travel time for dumping ore. Do you have an issue with this?

Profit favors the prepared
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#62 - 2012-10-22 20:24:59 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
That "fee incease" would be ofset by high sec industrialists actually making MORE MONEY.
Everything I would do to improve null sec, and encourage more peopel to come do industry here, would literally involve high sec making more money. It sounds so insane doesn't it?

A healthy high sec leads to a healthy null sec. I really believe this, truely.

The side effect of what I suggest would hopefully ENCOURAGE more people to come to null.



Hi sec industrialists wouldn't be making more profit, they would be looking at increased captial costs to do business. This is turn would be passed on teh consumer causing market inflation on anything that is manufactured (which is nearly everything).

The only people that would see an income increase from null manufacturing are those that have access to alliance wallets.

The side effect of what you suggeseted for me personally would cause me to bazaar my indy alt or unsub him, and just get a scanning alt and do low sec exploration or something. I can only speak for myself here I'm not sure how many industrialists are willing to go to null to do their thing, but I sure wouldn't even if I was able to make double the isk, which with all the changes you proposed isn't the case. Personally I made my alt to make money and have some fun with manufacturing, not to deal with null politics and logistics etc.
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-10-22 20:26:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmy Zeta
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

+snip+

Industry is all about economics though.

Are there people that do industry because mining fun, or because manufacturing is fun? For me at least it's fun because I like to make money. As a dedicated industrialsits it's not like I'm doing much. I mean it's fun to provide the things that goonies need on a daily basis, but again that's mostly because they give me ISK.

Mining is ******* boring. The process of science and industry is ******* painful. click. click. click. click. click. click. click. click. click. click. click. click. click. click. click. click. click. click...


That "fee incease" would be ofset by high sec industrialists actually making MORE MONEY.
Everything I would do to improve null sec, and encourage more peopel to come do industry here, would literally involve high sec making more money. It sounds so insane doesn't it?

A healthy high sec leads to a healthy null sec. I really believe this, truely.

The side effect of what I suggest would hopefully ENCOURAGE more people to come to null.


Industry is all about economics. Right.
But this is also a game, and a game is all about fun.

I am not saying that you are wrong, it's just my opinion that CCP should be very careful with those changes, lest they would be considered unfair by highsec industrialists.

But I just realized that we are maybe talking on different levels here- you seem to be a professional industrialist who takes his job serious to keep a large alliance supplied.
For me, it is just a convenient way to make just enough profit to to keep every fourth ship I build for myself and get myself killed in it in the most hilariuos ways...

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#64 - 2012-10-22 20:30:58 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:


The primary focus of my suggestion is actually to increase mineral prices due to scarcity, thus removing the need for doing things like tweaking station refining, and manufacturing prices, slot amounts, etc.

That's how it currently attempts to work, which is to say it doesn't.

Due to the sheer numbers in high sec, the value of low ends low ends mined in high sec eclipses the worth of high end minerals.

It is impossible to compete with high sec, short of removing a large portion of the asteroids there. That's obviously not how you fix things.

In a free market, scarcity is but a small portion of what something costs. An individuals desire to sell more than you will always have the greatest impact on the price. The other factor is going to be, what did it cost to mine it in the first place, usually in the form of mining crystals; which is how CCP attempts to set a baseline for that mineral.


Another option would be for them to adjust T1 manufacturing requirements to have more items require high end minerals in there production. I can't see that happening. Short of potentially collapsing the market, I could see it being a huge undertaking for CCP to impliment and balance.


Reducing the potential output of low ends in high sec should help with the value of low ends mined in null, and wouldn't hurt the wallet of the high sec industrialist becuase the minerals would go up in value anyways. There value in null would go up more due to perfect refines only being available there. That would hopefully entice more people to actually go to null and mine.
Robert De'Arneth
#65 - 2012-10-22 20:38:29 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
Robert De'Arneth wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:
Why not create more industry PvP and just reduce the availability of all high-sec minerals by 5% or so?
Systems that have stations would be stripped out a lot faster, and corps would need to increase their membership in order to accommodate mining setups that allow for higher yield in systems with no stations (boost orca, hauling orca, mining ships, etc.).
This wouldn't necessarily drive them into low-sec, but it would spread things out a bit more, and make high-sec industry require a little more planning.


Have you polled every player who plays this game? I keep seeing people say high sec is broken, yet a clear fact says that over 60% of the paying customers like to play in high sec, no one who has ever said nerf high sec has proven it is broken to all of those people. CCP made the sandbox, 60% of the player base plays in that part of the game. You may not like what they do, but I am betting the majority of players in the game will say they are fine with high sec.



I did not state that high-sec was broken. If anything is "broken" it's low-sec.
The primary focus of my suggestion is actually to increase mineral prices due to scarcity, thus removing the need for doing things like tweaking station refining, and manufacturing prices, slot amounts, etc.
Additionally, encouraging the use of high-sec systems which do not have stations in them creates a large problem for bots, because the solo bot miner has a substantial increase in travel time for dumping ore. Do you have an issue with this?



You did suggest a 5% decrease in minerals in high sec yes? See to me that suggest you think High sec is broken, or there would be no need to make this game more like a job rather then the game it is. When I look at suggestions that is how i look at it, how would that increase my fun? I fail to see how making people grind is going to add to the fun of thie game, please explain that to me. To be fair, I have yet see a suggestion from anyone who says nerf high sec would add to the fun, and I will be against any changes until they add to the fun factor, I am already having fun, and anything that would subtract from that fun is really bad idea from where I sit.

I'm a nerd, you can check my stats!! Skilling Int/Mem at 45 sp per minute is how I mack!     I'm like a lapdog, all bark no bite. 
Da'iel Zehn
Evil Frosty's Premium Liqours and Fine Wines
#66 - 2012-10-22 20:40:41 UTC
If you change the game from the basics that we have today, all you will get is a smaller player base.

There should be more awesome things to do in high sec that brings in new players and then leads them out to low and null sec space.

One of the best ways to get people out to low/null sec is to give us better tools of travel. There are many people who don't venture out because inevitabily they will get shot into dust at choke points.

Its not fun for people who don't like to PvP to lose all their ships/gear to pirates or territorial organizations.

People ***** and gripe about the vacancy out in low/null sec, and those of you who kill everything in sight are to blame. The other is CCP's travel system.

And moving ships/gear out to the ends of space is simply just a huge pain in the ass. Or transporting stuff back to sale. Pain in the ass. A lot of people don't enjoy traveling for hours. Its a bore.

Got a problem with my opinion? Talk to my gun.
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-10-22 20:41:13 UTC
Geligdio Khan wrote:
This is a pretentious, pseudo-intellectual whine, as to why it is in a pure industrialist’s best interest to nerf the industrial potential of high sec. Yeah, I know, lol.
I haven’t played the game long,


This is where I stopped. Without reading I am going to go ahead and say you really have no idea at all how eve works and anything you suggested I am pretty sure would break the game, This of course based on the title as well .
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-10-22 20:42:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Zimmy Zeta wrote:


But I just realized that we are maybe talking on different levels here- you seem to be a professional industrialist who takes his job serious to keep a large alliance supplied.
For me, it is just a convenient way to make just enough profit to to keep every fourth ship I build for myself and get myself killed in it in the most hilariuos ways...


Exactly.

There are a lot of guys in high sec like me, and a lot of them aren't coming to null to play and it has nothign to do with PvP.
It's simply not worth it.

Currently, as a dedicated inustrialist, the only reason to come to null and play is just because, and you do't care that you can make more, faster, and easier, in high sec. And that is ******* ******.



Try it.
I challenge someone to convince me to go do what I do only in null sec. (pretend I'm not already doing it)


As someone that was actually recruited outside of SA, I was convinced to join with "Just shut up and come here." I'm not really sure that many people wil fall for that pitch.


I am set up to manage and maintain almost 200 market orders. Pretty much all of it is stuff I build and sell in null. I only import the materials I can't get here, and a few profit making things. I would say 98% of my market orders are sell orders for things I build.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#69 - 2012-10-22 20:43:42 UTC
Silk daShocka wrote:


A great bulk of your statement is 60% assumption based on personal opinion or anecdotal evidence.

Not saying your wrong, just saying that your not presenting an actual statistic, although you seem to think you are.

CCP are the ones who provided both statistics. Funny how its only the first one some people remember...
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#70 - 2012-10-22 20:45:20 UTC
Higher isk value: the less rabits you have to farm to cover your losses = fun game

Lower isk value: the more rabbits you have to farm to cover your losses = unfun

When it comes to log in to some game and have the feeling it's a second job, either those people are idiots or don't know other fun games exist.

So for many people asking for total nerfs, be it industrial in all forms, gaming zones of all security levels and play styles, always remember about "fun" side for every one, "the greater good".
This is why Eve doesn't need brutal changes but rather slight adjustments and progressively so players "mass" gets some time to adapt their gaming experience and actually have fun.

brb
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#71 - 2012-10-22 20:46:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Evei Shard
Robert De'Arneth wrote:

You did suggest a 5% decrease in minerals in high sec yes? See to me that suggest you think High sec is broken, or there would be no need to make this game more like a job rather then the game it is. When I look at suggestions that is how i look at it, how would that increase my fun? I fail to see how making people grind is going to add to the fun of thie game, please explain that to me. To be fair, I have yet see a suggestion from anyone who says nerf high sec would add to the fun, and I will be against any changes until they add to the fun factor, I am already having fun, and anything that would subtract from that fun is really bad idea from where I sit.


If you are having fun, then you're playing the game right.
Yes, there are a lot of people suggesting full on nerfs to high-sec. My idea was simply an attempt to try and corral a bunch of them into one change, thus making it easier, and more likely, for CCP to take on as a possible change.

Don't assume that I don't enjoy high-sec, or that I'm *for* changing high-sec in regards to industry.


*edit: cleaned out redundant quotes

Profit favors the prepared
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#72 - 2012-10-22 20:47:49 UTC
Robert De'Arneth wrote:

You did suggest a 5% decrease in minerals in high sec yes? See to me that suggest you think High sec is broken, or there would be no need to make this game more like a job rather then the game it is. When I look at suggestions that is how i look at it, how would that increase my fun? I fail to see how making people grind is going to add to the fun of thie game, please explain that to me. To be fair, I have yet see a suggestion from anyone who says nerf high sec would add to the fun, and I will be against any changes until they add to the fun factor, I am already having fun, and anything that would subtract from that fun is really bad idea from where I sit.

So all of your fun is derived from being able to mine more?

Ok, there's no reason to reduce how much you can mine.
Cap high sec refine at 80% in .5 systems, 70% in 1.0. Have the refine rate go higher the lower sec you get, resulting in perfect refines in null stations controlled by players.

You're mining number doesn't go down, and your refined minerals will go up in price so your wallet doesn't actually take a hit.


Tinkering with the numbers would have zero impact on your ability to "have fun", if it really does, that's ******* lame.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#73 - 2012-10-22 20:48:43 UTC
Da'iel Zehn wrote:
If you change the game from the basics that we have today, all you will get is a smaller player base.

There should be more awesome things to do in high sec that brings in new players and then leads them out to low and null sec space.

One of the best ways to get people out to low/null sec is to give us better tools of travel. There are many people who don't venture out because inevitabily they will get shot into dust at choke points.

Its not fun for people who don't like to PvP to lose all their ships/gear to pirates or territorial organizations.

People ***** and gripe about the vacancy out in low/null sec, and those of you who kill everything in sight are to blame. The other is CCP's travel system.

And moving ships/gear out to the ends of space is simply just a huge pain in the ass. Or transporting stuff back to sale. Pain in the ass. A lot of people don't enjoy traveling for hours. Its a bore.

Got a problem with my opinion? Talk to my gun.

Its already far too easy to get around in EVE. We dont need to make it any easyer.
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#74 - 2012-10-22 20:50:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Silk daShocka wrote:


A great bulk of your statement is 60% assumption based on personal opinion or anecdotal evidence.

Not saying your wrong, just saying that your not presenting an actual statistic, although you seem to think you are.

CCP are the ones who provided both statistics. Funny how its only the first one some people remember...


If CCP did provide a statistic that 60% of high sec population is null sec alts, I apologize and did not know that.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#75 - 2012-10-22 20:53:32 UTC
Silk daShocka wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Silk daShocka wrote:


A great bulk of your statement is 60% assumption based on personal opinion or anecdotal evidence.

Not saying your wrong, just saying that your not presenting an actual statistic, although you seem to think you are.

CCP are the ones who provided both statistics. Funny how its only the first one some people remember...


If CCP did provide a statistic that 60% of high sec population is null sec alts, I apologize and did not know that.

Don't fall for that.

Most alts aren't played on the same account, they're additional accounts, and CCP doesn't have any way of accurately saying how many of those accounts belong to people playing in null.

Not everyone uses the same email for each account.
Robert De'Arneth
#76 - 2012-10-22 20:55:19 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Robert De'Arneth wrote:

You did suggest a 5% decrease in minerals in high sec yes? See to me that suggest you think High sec is broken, or there would be no need to make this game more like a job rather then the game it is. When I look at suggestions that is how i look at it, how would that increase my fun? I fail to see how making people grind is going to add to the fun of thie game, please explain that to me. To be fair, I have yet see a suggestion from anyone who says nerf high sec would add to the fun, and I will be against any changes until they add to the fun factor, I am already having fun, and anything that would subtract from that fun is really bad idea from where I sit.

So all of your fun is derived from being able to mine more?

Ok, there's no reason to reduce how much you can mine.
Cap high sec refine at 80% in .5 systems, 70% in 1.0. Have the refine rate go higher the lower sec you get, resulting in perfect refines in null stations controlled by players.

You're mining number doesn't go down, and your refined minerals will go up in price so your wallet doesn't actually take a hit.


Tinkering with the numbers would have zero impact on your ability to "have fun", if it really does, that's ******* lame.




My fun is many areas, not just one. I am not in disfavor of changes, as long as they add to the fun. I do not want to feel like I am working is my main concern and most of the suggestion seem to want to add to the grind. Now, I will point out I do not make these billions and billions that all high sec people do. I also do not know anyone who makes these billions and billions high sec people do, maybe because we go to low and null at times?

I'm a nerd, you can check my stats!! Skilling Int/Mem at 45 sp per minute is how I mack!     I'm like a lapdog, all bark no bite. 
Geligdio Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2012-10-22 20:57:07 UTC

Wow, thanks for all the feedback, glad my post was well recieved.

Hoping for a Dev comment, then everything would be complete. Big smile

Thanks
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#78 - 2012-10-22 21:01:38 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

I challenge someone to convince me to go do what I do only in null sec. (pretend I'm not already doing it)




Well...um....if you insist.....

...after the winter expansion I could just put a bounty on your head that is high enough to drive you out of highsec..

....if this is really what you want....

Blink

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#79 - 2012-10-22 21:05:41 UTC
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

I challenge someone to convince me to go do what I do only in null sec. (pretend I'm not already doing it)




Well...um....if you insist.....

...after the winter expansion I could just put a bounty on your head that is high enough to drive you out of highsec..

....if this is really what you want....

Blink


Because going to low or null with a massive bounty on your head is a great idea..
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#80 - 2012-10-22 21:10:03 UTC
Silk daShocka wrote:
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

I challenge someone to convince me to go do what I do only in null sec. (pretend I'm not already doing it)




Well...um....if you insist.....

...after the winter expansion I could just put a bounty on your head that is high enough to drive you out of highsec..

....if this is really what you want....

Blink


Because going to low or null with a massive bounty on your head is a great idea..


How would having a bounty on your head in low or null change the desire of an individual in low or null to shoot you in the first place?

Profit favors the prepared