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[Winter] Combat Cruisers

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Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#601 - 2012-10-22 08:59:52 UTC
I was thinking that maybe it should be a low that goes for the Moas additional mid as if it loses its high then Caldari wont have a Cruiser with a utility high.
Misspi en Divalone
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#602 - 2012-10-22 10:03:36 UTC
The Moa does not need a fifth med slot. I really don't want to see 70+k EHP cruisers flying at 2+k normal to 3+k overheated m/s while doing a very reasonable 570+ dps. That is the numbers you get with full gang link bonus, not unheard off when you get into reasonably sized fleets. There are some pretty interesting things you can do with these once you get into fleet sized gangs using either blasters or even rails.

The Moa might be slow but it's not that slow. It can fit scram+ web but at the cost of tank. Once it uses 2 meds for e-war it's shield tank is on par with shield tanking Thorax/Vexor/Rupture. Thorax/Vexor/Rupture shield tank just fine with 4 med slots and are according to quite a few people pretty good looking. At that point they have only room for a point/scram and not much more giving the Moa an edge either by virtue of extra tank or 2 e-war mods. Allowing 3 e-war mods or even more tank on the Moa will not be in the interest of balance in my opinion. Just consider how annoying a scram + web + TD fitted Moa will be. Scram + TD versus other shield tanking cruisers will also go a long way in dealing with them.

It also has a utility high slot something both Vexor and Thorax don't have. Small neut/nos fit just fine in there. Where the Vexor and Thorax can be neuted to hell and back at least the Moa can keep it's guns and some modules running when heavily neuted. Alternatively it replaces the web by neuting frigates that try to get under it's guns. The resistance bonus also makes it a lot easier to active tank it with ASB or be repped by logistic ships.

With heavy neutron blasters, no TE/TC using Null it will shoot at a reasonable 6.3 optimal + 8.8 falloff allowing it to at least damage anything that tries to kite it within normal point range. Really the Moa is fine with 4 med slots as long as you are prepared to bring a shield tank that's uses only one med slot for solo play and still are under the illusion you must have that web. Bringing a high or low to a med slot will give it an overpowered tank or e-war.

The only ship I currently see as being in need of a little love is the Maller and that is mostly by virtue of it's rather low CPU and damage output. CPU can be increased and damage output easily corrected by giving it a few drones.
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#603 - 2012-10-22 14:02:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Connall Tara
Misspi en Divalone wrote:
The Moa does not need a fifth med slot. I really don't want to see 70+k EHP cruisers flying at 2+k normal to 3+k overheated m/s while doing a very reasonable 570+ dps. That is the numbers you get with full gang link bonus, not unheard off when you get into reasonably sized fleets. There are some pretty interesting things you can do with these once you get into fleet sized gangs using either blasters or even rails.

The Moa might be slow but it's not that slow. It can fit scram+ web but at the cost of tank. Once it uses 2 meds for e-war it's shield tank is on par with shield tanking Thorax/Vexor/Rupture. Thorax/Vexor/Rupture shield tank just fine with 4 med slots and are according to quite a few people pretty good looking. At that point they have only room for a point/scram and not much more giving the Moa an edge either by virtue of extra tank or 2 e-war mods. Allowing 3 e-war mods or even more tank on the Moa will not be in the interest of balance in my opinion. Just consider how annoying a scram + web + TD fitted Moa will be. Scram + TD versus other shield tanking cruisers will also go a long way in dealing with them.

It also has a utility high slot something both Vexor and Thorax don't have. Small neut/nos fit just fine in there. Where the Vexor and Thorax can be neuted to hell and back at least the Moa can keep it's guns and some modules running when heavily neuted. Alternatively it replaces the web by neuting frigates that try to get under it's guns. The resistance bonus also makes it a lot easier to active tank it with ASB or be repped by logistic ships.

With heavy neutron blasters, no TE/TC using Null it will shoot at a reasonable 6.3 optimal + 8.8 falloff allowing it to at least damage anything that tries to kite it within normal point range. Really the Moa is fine with 4 med slots as long as you are prepared to bring a shield tank that's uses only one med slot for solo play and still are under the illusion you must have that web. Bringing a high or low to a med slot will give it an overpowered tank or e-war.

The only ship I currently see as being in need of a little love is the Maller and that is mostly by virtue of it's rather low CPU and damage output. CPU can be increased and damage output easily corrected by giving it a few drones.


wait... so because the moa could potentially have a 70k EHP, high dps and decent speed with not simply boosting, but ALL THE BOOSTS that its going to be completely overpowered? erm... yeah... no.

have you had a go at actually fitting out a moa out of curiosity? I'm really interested to see how you imagine a fitted moa working out, apparently with a full rack of neutrons, a small nos, microwarp, LSE, 3X damage mods, web and scram. yeah I ran out of powergrid back at 925 PWG mate, what you're describing uses 1131.25 (and that's with a fair chunk of meta in the mids). We're only getting an extra 20, not an extra 200.

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Zhephell
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#604 - 2012-10-22 14:09:28 UTC
Misspi en Divalone wrote:
The Moa does not need a fifth med slot. I really don't want to see 70+k EHP cruisers flying at 2+k normal to 3+k overheated m/s while doing a very reasonable 570+ dps. That is the numbers you get with full gang link bonus, not unheard off when you get into reasonably sized fleets. There are some pretty interesting things you can do with these once you get into fleet sized gangs using either blasters or even rails.

The Moa might be slow but it's not that slow. It can fit scram+ web but at the cost of tank. Once it uses 2 meds for e-war it's shield tank is on par with shield tanking Thorax/Vexor/Rupture. Thorax/Vexor/Rupture shield tank just fine with 4 med slots and are according to quite a few people pretty good looking. At that point they have only room for a point/scram and not much more giving the Moa an edge either by virtue of extra tank or 2 e-war mods. Allowing 3 e-war mods or even more tank on the Moa will not be in the interest of balance in my opinion. Just consider how annoying a scram + web + TD fitted Moa will be. Scram + TD versus other shield tanking cruisers will also go a long way in dealing with them.

It also has a utility high slot something both Vexor and Thorax don't have. Small neut/nos fit just fine in there. Where the Vexor and Thorax can be neuted to hell and back at least the Moa can keep it's guns and some modules running when heavily neuted. Alternatively it replaces the web by neuting frigates that try to get under it's guns. The resistance bonus also makes it a lot easier to active tank it with ASB or be repped by logistic ships.

With heavy neutron blasters, no TE/TC using Null it will shoot at a reasonable 6.3 optimal + 8.8 falloff allowing it to at least damage anything that tries to kite it within normal point range. Really the Moa is fine with 4 med slots as long as you are prepared to bring a shield tank that's uses only one med slot for solo play and still are under the illusion you must have that web. Bringing a high or low to a med slot will give it an overpowered tank or e-war.

The only ship I currently see as being in need of a little love is the Maller and that is mostly by virtue of it's rather low CPU and damage output. CPU can be increased and damage output easily corrected by giving it a few drones.


I don't think you're going to convince Fozzie, with those extravagant exaggerations
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#605 - 2012-10-22 15:20:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Connall Tara wrote:
have you had a go at actually fitting out a moa out of curiosity? I'm really interested to see how you imagine a fitted moa working out, apparently with a full rack of neutrons, a small nos, microwarp, LSE, 3X damage mods, web and scram. yeah I ran out of powergrid back at 925 PWG mate, what you're describing uses 1131.25 (and that's with a fair chunk of meta in the mids). We're only getting an extra 20, not an extra 200.

I bet you will be fine if you downgrade to ion blasters. You will lose something like 5%dps, but you will be able to use T2 everywhere, and you will still have amazing tank + dps.

You know, you only have 20 PG less than the thorax, but 45 CPU more.

Brawler Moa will **** the Thorax already. With a fifth mid slot, it will have a battlecruiser tank (50kehp).
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#606 - 2012-10-22 16:51:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Connall Tara
I should have probably mentioned that the "super" moa i mentioned above? 25k EHP... awesome tank that eh?


As both a regular moa and thorax pilot i have to disagree with that sadly. at the current moment an armour thorax out tanks, out dpses and out combats a moa in so many ways its painful, even with just electron blasters. the problem is that the moa relies on a range bonus to get an edge over the thorax's damage but has to fight at ranges where the thorax quite simply trumps it.

an ion moa with 3X magstabs,3 hobgob II's and (lets be kind to the moa and let it have a 3% fitting implant) a T2 heavy missile launcher will do 483 dps with caldari navy ammo (both antimatter and heavy missiles). using the available remaining slots the moa has a top speed to 1273m/s with a microwarp drive, 33.3 thousand EHP with a 2 slot mid tank (an LSE and an invuln with a DC in the lows and 3 shield extender rigs) and only has a scram for tackle.

by comparison a 1600mm plated electron blaster thorax does 501 dps with CNAM and a wing of hammerheads, has 37.5 thousand effective hitpoints, has both web AND scram for tackle and travels at... 1212m/s.

ah! you might declare! the moa is faster and therefor keep range! yeah... no, the fact that a thorax has a web pretty much assures that it has a massive advantage over the moa in 9/10 engagements before the fight even begins.

while these are clearly only problems for now, the moa will be gaining a HUGE dps boost after all, the other inherent issues are still to be adressed:

1. the moa cannot dictate range where all of its counterparts can yet has the shortest damage projection range and is the slowest ship of the 4. (the vexor's drones give it significantly superior damage application range, scorch lasers give the (also seriously underpowered maller) some hope and the rupture has autocannons giving it a HUGE damage projection edge over blasters)
2. the moa has the least available slots for tanking due to having to share said slots with both tackle (be it a one or two slot tank) and propulsion, the three other ships have the choice of shield tanking for speed or armour tanking for utility, the moa can do neither being the slowest of the 4 hulls and being limmited to a mere 2 slot tank at best.

the 50 thousand hitpoint moa you describe could only be achieved if the moa pilot were to downgrade guns, fit a 3 slot tank (which would in turn mean it could only fit a scram and no web) and still have powergrid issues. the comparison would be like flying a punisher with only a scram but with blasters rather than pulse lasers making it, while a very tough and high damaging ship, incredibly easy to simply web and kite to death.

ah but you might say! the moa has a utility high and can fit a small neut or nos!.. ok, target a small neut on a T1 frigate and let me know how long it takes them to cap out. now try it on a cruiser... yeah thanks but no thanks.

the problem is that the moa is given as many slots to "primary" tank as the gallente and minmatar are getting for their "alternative" tanks but without any of the advantages tanking in those ways would give such as speed or an ample supply of lows. its like asking a Merlin to fly with 3 mids rather than 4 then expecting it to fight an incursus on an even playing field :/

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#607 - 2012-10-22 17:10:11 UTC
The Moa spare high slot is useless with that low powergrid.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#608 - 2012-10-22 18:04:07 UTC
Downgrading to electron, you can fit a medium neut, even on the *current* Moa.

The *current* Moa have 25kehp with a one slot tank + rigs, but the new one will earn 225 shield, and hence will have the same tank than 2 slot shield tanked cruisers.

And no, a Moa is not slower than a 1600mm plated thorax. In fact, even a 800mm plated thorax is slower than a Moa.

And finally, the Moa trade it's optimale range bonus for a damage one : it will have the exact same dps than the thorax, minus drones.

Oh, and the thorax will *lose* shield hp with the tiericide, making it even "worse" with shield tank. And I doubt the maller can shield tank, or the moa can armor tank too without problems.
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#609 - 2012-10-22 18:47:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Connall Tara
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Downgrading to electron, you can fit a medium neut, even on the *current* Moa.

The *current* Moa have 25kehp with a one slot tank + rigs, but the new one will earn 225 shield, and hence will have the same tank than 2 slot shield tanked cruisers.

And no, a Moa is not slower than a 1600mm plated thorax. In fact, even a 800mm plated thorax is slower than a Moa.

And finally, the Moa trade it's optimale range bonus for a damage one : it will have the exact same dps than the thorax, minus drones.

Oh, and the thorax will *lose* shield hp with the tiericide, making it even "worse" with shield tank. And I doubt the maller can shield tank, or the moa can armor tank too without problems.


wait... so 225 shield HP gives you the same effective boost as a +2625hp large shield extender or a +30% to all resists hardener? well damn all our problems are out the window aren't they? the hp boost is nice, i'm not going to complain about it but the difference between it or an LSE or Invuln is the difference between a kestrel and a raven. to claim its worth a whole slot's worth of tanking just isn't the case :/

as for having the exact same dps as the thorax, minus drones, i think its important to make the distinction that the difference between 3 hobgoblin II's and 5 hammerhead II's is 99 dps. but hey! we get an extra 225 shield HP so what problems do we have? but of course, we're downgrading to electrons ^_^

but wait! didn't Bouh previously just state that a *current* moa will **** a thorax already. apparently i'm missing something about pvp if a moa with 12k less EHP and 20 less dps will **** a thorax with ease, particularly within web range.

as for the maller not being able to shield tank i think i should point out a significant distinction. the maller is not MEANT to shield tank and has an armour bonus. it can do this fine while still bringing damage mods and tackle. the moa is however meant to shield tank, yet it is unable to do this while still bringing damage mods and full tackle.

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#610 - 2012-10-22 18:58:26 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Downgrading to electron, you can fit a medium neut, even on the *current* Moa.

The *current* Moa have 25kehp with a one slot tank + rigs, but the new one will earn 225 shield, and hence will have the same tank than 2 slot shield tanked cruisers.

And no, a Moa is not slower than a 1600mm plated thorax. In fact, even a 800mm plated thorax is slower than a Moa.

And finally, the Moa trade it's optimale range bonus for a damage one : it will have the exact same dps than the thorax, minus drones.

Oh, and the thorax will *lose* shield hp with the tiericide, making it even "worse" with shield tank. And I doubt the maller can shield tank, or the moa can armor tank too without problems.


wait... so 225 shield HP gives you the same effective boost as a +2625hp large shield extender or a +30% to all resists hardener? well damn all our problems are out the window aren't they? the hp boost is nice, i'm not going to complain about it but the difference between it or an LSE or Invuln is the difference between a kestrel and a raven. to claim its worth a whole slot's worth of tanking just isn't the case :/

as for having the exact same dps as the thorax, minus drones, i think its important to make the distinction that the difference between 3 hobgoblin II's and 5 hammerhead II's is 99 dps. but hey! we get an extra 225 shield HP so what problems do we have? but of course, we're downgrading to electrons ^_^

but wait! didn't Bouh previously just state that a *current* moa will **** a thorax already. apparently i'm missing something about pvp if a moa with 12k less EHP and 20 less dps will **** a thorax with ease, particularly within web range.

as for the maller not being able to shield tank i think i should point out a significant distinction. the maller is not MEANT to shield tank and has an armour bonus. it can do this fine while still bringing damage mods and tackle. the moa is however meant to shield tank, yet it is unable to do this while still bringing damage mods and full tackle.

Maybe I didn't wrote it correctly. What I said, or wanted to sway, was that the futur Moa would **** the future thorax.
And no, 225 hp don't mean an LSE or invul, but a Moa vith one slot tank + resist bonus is like another cruiser (sans resist bonus) with two slot tank.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#611 - 2012-10-22 19:53:19 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Connall Tara wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Downgrading to electron, you can fit a medium neut, even on the *current* Moa.

The *current* Moa have 25kehp with a one slot tank + rigs, but the new one will earn 225 shield, and hence will have the same tank than 2 slot shield tanked cruisers.

And no, a Moa is not slower than a 1600mm plated thorax. In fact, even a 800mm plated thorax is slower than a Moa.

And finally, the Moa trade it's optimale range bonus for a damage one : it will have the exact same dps than the thorax, minus drones.

Oh, and the thorax will *lose* shield hp with the tiericide, making it even "worse" with shield tank. And I doubt the maller can shield tank, or the moa can armor tank too without problems.


wait... so 225 shield HP gives you the same effective boost as a +2625hp large shield extender or a +30% to all resists hardener? well damn all our problems are out the window aren't they? the hp boost is nice, i'm not going to complain about it but the difference between it or an LSE or Invuln is the difference between a kestrel and a raven. to claim its worth a whole slot's worth of tanking just isn't the case :/

as for having the exact same dps as the thorax, minus drones, i think its important to make the distinction that the difference between 3 hobgoblin II's and 5 hammerhead II's is 99 dps. but hey! we get an extra 225 shield HP so what problems do we have? but of course, we're downgrading to electrons ^_^

but wait! didn't Bouh previously just state that a *current* moa will **** a thorax already. apparently i'm missing something about pvp if a moa with 12k less EHP and 20 less dps will **** a thorax with ease, particularly within web range.

as for the maller not being able to shield tank i think i should point out a significant distinction. the maller is not MEANT to shield tank and has an armour bonus. it can do this fine while still bringing damage mods and tackle. the moa is however meant to shield tank, yet it is unable to do this while still bringing damage mods and full tackle.

Maybe I didn't wrote it correctly. What I said, or wanted to sway, was that the futur Moa would **** the future thorax.
And no, 225 hp don't mean an LSE or invul, but a Moa vith one slot tank + resist bonus is like another cruiser (sans resist bonus) with two slot tank.



I think the issue though, is that the HAM Caracal has 5 mid slots, can tie the Moa for tank and utility (prop, web, scram, LSE, invuln), can deal more damage then a Moa in optimal using null at a range greater then the Moa's null optimal + falloff x2, and has capless weapons, moves faster, etc.

Sure, it won't be as strong in the knife fighting range, but the Caracal is going to be better at any range beyond that. And is faster, and so won't get kited. In addition to having Javelin ammunition, which will probably go out to ~40km range, all level 5.

I dunno. I can't make my damn mind up when it comes to the Moa. I compare it with some things, then I change my mind, I can't decide.

Sure, the Moa will kick the shield 'Rax's ass in range, but the 'Rax is fast enough that he can choose. And any 'Rax pilot who has half a brain will know the Moa has approximately equal DPS, and a much larger tank, and won't engage. Most ships won't even let it get in range, as only one other cruiser is slower (plated Maller).

And Gang Links shouldn't be used for balancing, as those already break the balance on lots of things already. Sure, a gang-linked 5 slot Moa might match a non-linked BC for tank, but a linked BC will blow it out of the water.
Jing Xin
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#612 - 2012-10-22 20:01:31 UTC
CSM minutes summer 2012 wrote:

Moa evoked a hilarious reaction from CCP Ytterbium, “the poor thing!” CCP Ytterbium continued, saying he wanted to make it a viable hybrid platform. Moving on to the other races, the Vexor and Thorax are both OK in CCP Ytterbium’s opinion, but they can be buffed a little bit as well.


Buffs on Moa vs. Vexor:
Grid: +20 vs. +125
CPU: +15 vs. +30
D-fens: +225 Shields vs. + 515 Armor
Capacitor: +50 vs. +200
Velocity: +31 vs. +46
Sensor: +1 vs. +2
Sig: -0 vs. -5
Cargo: +200 yay! \o/

One of these things are not like the other. Powercreep is so powercreep.
Misspi en Divalone
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#613 - 2012-10-22 20:05:41 UTC
Connall Tara wrote:

have you had a go at actually fitting out a moa out of curiosity? I'm really interested to see how you imagine a fitted moa working out, apparently with a full rack of neutrons, a small nos, microwarp, LSE, 3X damage mods, web and scram. yeah I ran out of powergrid back at 925 PWG mate, what you're describing uses 1131.25 (and that's with a fair chunk of meta in the mids). We're only getting an extra 20, not an extra 200.


Some extremely clever people have been kind enough to create some data files for EFT with the new stats, so yes I did play with fitting one. Look for links on forums.

Downgrading guns or using fitting mod/rigs and in some cases a cheap pg implant makes it all fit easily. I think it has already been said some time ago by the balancing team that fitting the largest guns shouldn't be *that* easy. They weren't lying.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#614 - 2012-10-22 20:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Jing Xin wrote:
CSM minutes summer 2012 wrote:

Moa evoked a hilarious reaction from CCP Ytterbium, “the poor thing!” CCP Ytterbium continued, saying he wanted to make it a viable hybrid platform. Moving on to the other races, the Vexor and Thorax are both OK in CCP Ytterbium’s opinion, but they can be buffed a little bit as well.


Buffs on Moa vs. Vexor:
Grid: +20 vs. +125
CPU: +15 vs. +30
D-fens: +225 Shields vs. + 515 Armor
Capacitor: +50 vs. +200
Velocity: +31 vs. +46
Sensor: +1 vs. +2
Sig: -0 vs. -5
Cargo: +200 yay! \o/

One of these things are not like the other. Powercreep is so powercreep.


Vexor looks like a thorax but better so long as you have good drone skills and has more flexibility aswell remove the hybrid dmg bonus give it a drone skill instead and then maybe it wont compete with the moa and thorax for best blaster boat
That and the moa needs another mid (spare high why?) and much more speed.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#615 - 2012-10-22 20:33:14 UTC
You can also use a low for a nanofiber and become fast enough. Also, you don't always need to be the fastest to catch your target. The relative difference of speed between those cruisers is not that much.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#616 - 2012-10-22 22:12:13 UTC
Well, atleast there was some sense put into this thread. Finally What?

I already had the intention of leading a Moa-fleet, with logistics. They already have alot of effective hit-points and resistence, but with battlecruiser damage. So, I'd have cruisers zipping around @ 1600m/sec doing 550d per second. Oh CCP! PLEASE give a Moa even more mid slots, so it can completely replace tier 1 - 2 close range battlecruisers. Good thing CCP's changing ASB's or else these would be even more OP Roll

Major Killz you so TAR TAR

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#617 - 2012-10-22 22:26:21 UTC
Jing Xin wrote:
CSM minutes summer 2012 wrote:

Moa evoked a hilarious reaction from CCP Ytterbium, “the poor thing!” CCP Ytterbium continued, saying he wanted to make it a viable hybrid platform. Moving on to the other races, the Vexor and Thorax are both OK in CCP Ytterbium’s opinion, but they can be buffed a little bit as well.


Buffs on Moa vs. Vexor:
Grid: +20 vs. +125
CPU: +15 vs. +30
D-fens: +225 Shields vs. + 515 Armor
Capacitor: +50 vs. +200
Velocity: +31 vs. +46
Sensor: +1 vs. +2
Sig: -0 vs. -5
Cargo: +200 yay! \o/

One of these things are not like the other. Powercreep is so powercreep.


The difference in the magnitude of buffs is because the Vexor wasn't the top tier cruiser for its race but the Moa was, which is why the Vexor got additional slots as well.


Lol @ Major Killz scenario, enjoy your 550dps @ point blank, Battlecruiser/Battleship fleets will straight up melt you at any range, and Frigate/Cruiser gangs will easily escape your 'blazing' fast 1.6kms 'death blob' or be able to remain outside the amazing 5km range you will have. Are you high? Replace close range Battlecruisers? Those can easily field 50+k EHP with 700+ dps.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#618 - 2012-10-22 23:00:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
R0FL^ I like small gangs*** U cl0wn. Although I can bet I've lead many more large fleet engagements in low and 0.0 than you have successfuly. So Tar Tar lol

Also, when it comes to effective incoming reps. What ship do those with sense think will survive longer? You know! Unless you're being aplhad which would be the case for other shield bc's. Would a Brutix have more effective incoming reps or would the Moa? Also, what about cost? Same, tank same damage, but less cost? Why would anyone fly a drake over a fleet of megathrons or tempest? I wonder.

GTFO cl0wn before you trip and break your ugly red nose Lol

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#619 - 2012-10-22 23:08:40 UTC
Aite doesn't change what I said, so how again are 5 mid slot moas going to replace short-range Battlecruisers in small gangs with less EHP/DPS/Range/Utility?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#620 - 2012-10-22 23:17:45 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Aite doesn't change what I said, so how again are 5 mid slot moas going to replace short-range Battlecruisers in small gangs with less EHP/DPS/Range/Utility?

No less ehp : infact, 5 mid slot moa would more ehp than a shield hurricane, and with better resists. Dps difference is not that huge for fleet work, and Moa have the agility/speed over a BC. Warping in 6s instead of 9 can save your ship/fleet.

And the Moa does have one utility high.