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Why a high sec nerf is good for industrialists.
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Harraria
Perkone
#21 - 2012-10-22 18:08:44 UTC
Kult Altol wrote:

and you read the whole thing? Wow good job. Since your making sweeping generalizations, I will too. Wow you read the whole thing you must have no life.


I don't think you know how generalizations work.

Me calling everyone in 0.0 a meme spouting neckbeard

You saying I must have no life because you're assuming I read the whole thing.

Not the same thing.
Robert De'Arneth
#22 - 2012-10-22 18:29:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert De'Arneth
Serf of Hurlbat wrote:
Ultimately, we can speculate on the effects of nerfs or we can ask CCP to actually have an official stance. These "nerfs" can always be "buffed" again - so I think the best way to go forward would to be trial-run changes to high sec and then observe the effects the changes have on the economy. The EVE devs have years of experience under their belt, but the EVE economy is very fragile and unpredictable at the best of times.



While good in theory and on paper, the loss of good will his idea would cause would be very harmful to CCP. They need to do a serious poll on this before making rash change's. I feel safe in saying that if they did what the OP suggested, not only would people not move on to low and null sec, people would move on to a new game. So his idea would directly hit CCP where it counts, the pocekt book.

I'm a nerd, you can check my stats!! Skilling Int/Mem at 45 sp per minute is how I mack!     I'm like a lapdog, all bark no bite. 
Dessau
The Scope
#23 - 2012-10-22 18:42:50 UTC
James 315 wrote:
I agree that highsec needs a catastrophic nerf and that it would benefit industrialists. Smile

As much as I would like that to be the case, some posts here are in alignment with what many had already assumed: some are so averse to the inherent risk that makes EVE unique that they would simply rather not play than take part in concerted group efforts to achieve their goals. One wonders why they subscribed in the first place.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-10-22 18:45:14 UTC
Geligdio Khan wrote:
Why a high sec nerf is good for industrialists



Because risk vs reward.

If even all alliances have their major production in high sec it's obvious there's a real problem, now where does this problem comes from?

NPC tax for installing jobs is fixed and low, timers are fastest and number of slots available per single system can hit ridiculous numbers (search Nonni for the perfect example, but there are far many other)

When building a simple battleship costs less for a null sec alliance while they could perfectly build it there, knowing they have to haul to high sec build there and bring back to null witch adds cost, and guess what, it's still cheaper to build in high sec.

Could give many other examples for each industrial activity but other will do it better then me, excuse my low English level.

This can't stay as for many longer, this is not a sustainable and healthy situation overtime. Industry must be profitable done in null, a lot more profitable than in high sec. With much better output (read timers) and less waste/fees than high sec so industrial characters, if they really want more profits are sure to get those if they're willing to take some risks.
Those who don't want risk should still be able to build stuff in high sec, but at much higher cost and really less profits.

If you move industry to null a lot of related activities will follow. Most noticeable and important one being miner bumpers, and of course their contribution to emergent game play will for once have a sense, our KBs has theirs are already salivating

brb
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-10-22 18:52:47 UTC
Geligdio Khan wrote:
So could this be achieved in practice? I think two small changes would accomplish it very quickly. The current distribution of minerals in the game is (ignoring anomalies and wormholes);

High Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium

Low Sec, the above plus Zydrine (no wonder no one goes there)

Null Sec, the above plus Megacyte and Morphite.

I propose changing this to

High Sec, Tritanium

Low Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium

Null Sec, Tritanium, Pyerite, Zydrine, Megacyte, Morphite.

Notice under this system there are minerals which are only available in low, so miners will have to go there.
Moreover I propose high sec manufacturing is altered from 1000 ISK install charge, 333 Isk per hour, to 10,000 ISK install charge and 5,000 ISK per hour.

These changes would be really simple to implement and it would mean you can still do everything in high sec you can do now, you can mine and manufacture there to your heart’s content. But it wouldn’t be very profitable, so you would naturally want to leave and set up in low and null. This would create a load more PVP targets and create, to borrow a phrase from James 315, a PVP food chain. Prices would rise, manufacturers would make more profit, and I, for one, would fly in a small Rifter gang hunting miners and haulers. It would be a great game for everyone to play.

TL;DR, Industrialists would make more profit from the increased demand and reduced supply that would come from a high sec nerf.


Agree with the chane to mineral distribution. Do not agree with the change to manfuactuing install cost. What will this accomplish outside of higher cost for goods? A smart industrialist will just pass all those taxes/install cost etc to the consumer.

If you really want to affect hi sec manufacturing either reduce the amount of slots available in stations or only allow hi sec manufacturing in POS's, which means if you want to build stuff, you need to be in a player corp.

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#26 - 2012-10-22 18:55:03 UTC
Geligdio Khan wrote:

If high sec were nerfed and miners and manufacturers moved to low and null ................



I had to just quit reading here at this point.

Same debate for a Decade. Same crap. And they will not move to Low and Null. They will move to Minecraft.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-10-22 19:01:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
Tell you a secret: We manufacturers sell T1 hulls slightly below raw mineral value and we know it.
T1 hulls are not there to make you a profit or grant you a living in luxury.
But for every hull that is bought, the customer also needs modules, ammo and rigs.
T2 modules are pretty much standard in any PvP fitting now.

Let's take a look at the good old Rifter, for example:
I sell Rifter hulls at about 10% loss, but for every hull, the customer also buys 3x 150mm AC II, 1x 1mn MWD II, 1x DCU II and 1x Gyro II. Web, plate, Point and the remaining utility high are usually filled with tech 1 modules, so I won't make much money with those.
With the t2 modules I sell with each Rifter, I am making about 3 Million raw profit - although I sell the hull at 30k loss.

Edit just to point out that I agree that chaos and destruction is good for business and people should stop whining about what fills there wallet in the long run.

Ugh.

There is no justifiable reason to knowingly sell anything at a loss, unless you're engaged in some market warfare. Intentionally selling T1 hulls at a loss is silly, especially if you're selling it for a loss in null.



Decreasing high sec refine rates would put more value on low end ores that come out of low and null.
You can't "just make up" the mined minerals, and yes it would increse the cost of those minerals in high sec. I believe this is a good thing, both for the game and especially for null miners. Again, increased costs would be a benefit to every miner, your minerals would carry more value.

A 20% reduction in refine rate would require one new miner for every five in high sec. Increased miiners would result in more systems getting mined.

A large enough increase in low end profit from mining low ends in null would encourage more mining in null, and hopefully more people mining more systems.

While it would nerf high sec mining, it would have benefits, and hopefully those benefits would spill into null sec industry.



Increasing manufacturing costs in high sec would increase the cost of finished goods, hopefully. Increased costs wouldn't hurt the industrialists, there's plenty of ISK out there, enough so that you can charge considerably more than you currently do for goods.

There is no real "reason" to build in null. It seems a little silly to create a bunch of crap that can only be built in null. How would you justify that? If you have to build it in null, it would stand to reason that you can only use it there as well. That doesn't really help the industrialist, especially when these things are such massive pains in the asses to build anyways.

The only way to make it "worthwhile" to build in null is to make it more affordable to do so than in high sec. That would require there to be drastic price differences between manufacturing in a high sec NPC station or a null player controlled one. The only benefit that you could really give the null industrialist is being able to build cheaper.

Reducing manufacturing slots would hopefully pread people out more in high sec, and create more small and medium trade hubs. I would think that this would be a good thing.

Invention in null should come with a boost in success chance. Maybe give corps the ability to install different grade research fascilities with scalling costs. There's no real incentive to come to null to invent stuff. This would hopefully encourage more people to come down to null to do invention.

Research slots could use a bump in numbers in null.
Kara Vix
Perkone
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-10-22 19:04:08 UTC
Just what the forum needs, another nerf hi sec thread. This forum is hardly worth reading anymore.
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#29 - 2012-10-22 19:05:14 UTC
I would like someone to explain to me why people keep pulling the risk/reward card on this topic.

The risk to mine in low/null is a guaranteed 100% ship loss. I mean is a guarantee considered a risk these days?

Sure you can hire a fleet to protect you, or join a corp that exploits your need for protection, but then the risk is entirely gone. Even if a fleet warped in to fight in your mining belt, they would probably be more concerned with shooting the combat ships you hired than with shotting your mining barge which is of no threat. There's no reason why you wouldn't just warp off with your mining barge while the combat ships are fighting each other. Shouldn't this just be considered an expense and not a risk?

Seems to me the argument of rewards for industrialists should be Expense vs Reward. Also known as profit.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#30 - 2012-10-22 19:05:20 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Geligdio Khan wrote:

If high sec were nerfed and miners and manufacturers moved to low and null it would


POSTING IN THREAD # 1,234,764,123 make hi sec into NULL sec Roll

You're mistaken, this is clearly a "If we make highsec suck ass people will go to nullsec" thread. Which is a different type of stupid thread.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#31 - 2012-10-22 19:05:59 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Geligdio Khan wrote:

If high sec were nerfed and miners and manufacturers moved to low and null ................



I had to just quit reading here at this point.

Same debate for a Decade. Same crap. And they will not move to Low and Null. They will move to Minecraft.

No they won't. They will whine about it, threaten to cancel their 10 accounts and then continue to play. I have already figured out how to avoid the OPs tax.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-10-22 19:08:33 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Geligdio Khan wrote:

If high sec were nerfed and miners and manufacturers moved to low and null ................



I had to just quit reading here at this point.

Same debate for a Decade. Same crap. And they will not move to Low and Null. They will move to Minecraft.


Not really or just the minority. Major huge high sec production/mining corporations are already null sec alliances alt corporations.
They already know the tedious part about JF'in from jita/Rens/Amar/Dodixe to null so there's no big change for them.

Those leaving will only leave clean place for smarter players and will moan anyway when they get back a couple months later, so go forward for changes, leave nerds swim in their tears. They'll get back when they'll be mature.

brb
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-10-22 19:10:07 UTC
Silk daShocka wrote:
I would like someone to explain to me why people keep pulling the risk/reward card on this topic.

The risk to mine in low/null is a guaranteed 100% ship loss. I mean is a guarantee considered a risk these days?

Sure you can hire a fleet to protect you, or join a corp that exploits your need for protection, but then the risk is entirely gone. Even if a fleet warped in to fight in your mining belt, they would probably be more concerned with shooting the combat ships you hired than with shotting your mining barge which is of no threat. There's no reason why you wouldn't just warp off with your mining barge while the combat ships are fighting each other. Shouldn't this just be considered an expense and not a risk?

Seems to me the argument of rewards for industrialists should be Expense vs Reward. Also known as profit.



It has nothing to do with either risk or expense.

It has everything to do with "Why should I play here". There is nothing I can say to a high sec industrialist that is a worthwhile reason to come play in null.

"Why should I play here" trumps all.


Because I truelly believe in this stuff, and really do think that this would be fair and benefit both high and null:

Decreasing high sec refine rates would put more value on low end ores that come out of low and null.
You can't "just make up" the mined minerals, and yes it would increse the cost of those minerals in high sec. I believe this is a good thing, both for the game and especially for null miners. Again, increased costs would be a benefit to every miner, your minerals would carry more value.

A 20% reduction in refine rate would require one new miner for every five in high sec to make up for the loss in refining. Increased miiners would result in more systems getting mined.

A large enough increase in low end profit from mining low ends in null would encourage more mining in null, and hopefully more people mining more systems.

While it would nerf high sec mining, it would have benefits, and hopefully those benefits would spill into null sec industry.

Increasing manufacturing costs in high sec would increase the cost of finished goods, hopefully. Increased costs wouldn't hurt the industrialists, there's plenty of ISK out there, enough so that you can charge considerably more than you currently do for goods.

There is no real "reason" to build in null. It seems a little silly to create a bunch of crap that can only be built in null. How would you justify that? If you have to build it in null, it would stand to reason that you can only use it there as well. That doesn't really help the industrialist, especially when these things are such massive pains in the asses to build anyways.

The only way to make it "worthwhile" to build in null is to make it more affordable to do so than in high sec. That would require there to be drastic price differences between manufacturing in a high sec NPC station or a null player controlled one. The only benefit that you could really give the null industrialist is being able to build cheaper.

Reducing manufacturing slots would hopefully pread people out more in high sec, and create more small and medium trade hubs. I would think that this would be a good thing.

Invention in null should come with a boost in success chance. Maybe give corps the ability to install different grade research fascilities with scalling costs. There's no real incentive to come to null to invent stuff. This would hopefully encourage more people to come down to null to do invention.

Research slots could use a bump in numbers in null.
Cyprus Black
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-10-22 19:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyprus Black
Oh oh! Can I pay a hefty renters fee to a mega nullsec alliance for the privilege to be their meatshield? Can I also be denied all the benefits of living in nullsec as well? Oh, and can I also pay out of pocket for all the fleet welps our host alliance causes?

When that's the standard for nullsec life, I'd much rather live in highsec.

Highsec doesn't need a nerf. Nullsec needs a massive buff to not sucking.

Summary of EvEs last four expansions: http://imgur.com/ZL5SM33
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#35 - 2012-10-22 19:11:52 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Geligdio Khan wrote:

If high sec were nerfed and miners and manufacturers moved to low and null ................



I had to just quit reading here at this point.

Same debate for a Decade. Same crap. And they will not move to Low and Null. They will move to Minecraft.


Not really or just the minority. Major huge high sec production/mining corporations are already null sec alliances alt corporations.
They already know the tedious part about JF'in from jita/Rens/Amar/Dodixe to null so there's no big change for them.

Those leaving will only leave clean place for smarter players and will moan anyway when they get back a couple months later, so go forward for changes, leave nerds swim in their tears. They'll get back when they'll be mature.


I'd like to see your source that claims that the majority of high sec production is done by null alliances.

Seems to me your just making stuff up to please your side of the argument at this point.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-10-22 19:14:27 UTC
Cyprus Black wrote:


Highsec doesn't need a nerf. Nullsec needs a massive buff to not sucking.

I agree.

Except that I think it's possible to "nerf" high sec at the same time giving them a buff that would spill into null.
Merovee
Gorthaur Legion
Imperium Mordor
#37 - 2012-10-22 19:17:03 UTC
Buff low sec

1. A rare mineral

2. Tax free zone

3. Allow null-sec alliances to take sov. from border low-sec systems to re-install taxes for alliance.

4. Allow FW to push out incursion null alliances from low-sec border systems.

LolPTwisted

Empire, the next new world order.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#38 - 2012-10-22 19:17:35 UTC
Silk daShocka wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Geligdio Khan wrote:

If high sec were nerfed and miners and manufacturers moved to low and null ................



I had to just quit reading here at this point.

Same debate for a Decade. Same crap. And they will not move to Low and Null. They will move to Minecraft.


Not really or just the minority. Major huge high sec production/mining corporations are already null sec alliances alt corporations.
They already know the tedious part about JF'in from jita/Rens/Amar/Dodixe to null so there's no big change for them.

Those leaving will only leave clean place for smarter players and will moan anyway when they get back a couple months later, so go forward for changes, leave nerds swim in their tears. They'll get back when they'll be mature.


I'd like to see your source that claims that the majority of high sec production is done by null alliances.

Seems to me your just making stuff up to please your side of the argument at this point.

Whenever there is a big welp of drakes in a 0.0 fight drakes for sale in jita jumps 10% or more.
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
#39 - 2012-10-22 19:21:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Silk daShocka wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Geligdio Khan wrote:

If high sec were nerfed and miners and manufacturers moved to low and null ................



I had to just quit reading here at this point.

Same debate for a Decade. Same crap. And they will not move to Low and Null. They will move to Minecraft.


Not really or just the minority. Major huge high sec production/mining corporations are already null sec alliances alt corporations.
They already know the tedious part about JF'in from jita/Rens/Amar/Dodixe to null so there's no big change for them.

Those leaving will only leave clean place for smarter players and will moan anyway when they get back a couple months later, so go forward for changes, leave nerds swim in their tears. They'll get back when they'll be mature.


I'd like to see your source that claims that the majority of high sec production is done by null alliances.

Seems to me your just making stuff up to please your side of the argument at this point.

Whenever there is a big welp of drakes in a 0.0 fight drakes for sale in jita jumps 10% or more.


Alright, but that doens't mean the alliances are the ones building the drakes, if anything it would indicate the opposite since the alliances can't maintain their own production to meet their demand.

I could be mistaken here.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-10-22 19:22:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
baltec1 wrote:

Whenever there is a big welp of drakes in a 0.0 fight drakes for sale in jita jumps 10% or more.


If they drastically increased the cost of manufacturing lines in high sec, it would be much more affordable, and hopefully, desirable to mass produce those drakes in null.

Drastically ruducing refine rates would hopefully encourage more people to mine in more systems in null, and in turn hopefully increase the availability of the low end minerals needed to build all those drakes.

PS: They could even give a boost in manufacturing time in null. If it already is then it should be higher.