EVE General Discussion

I can't let this go. These fallacies somehow endure and I have to respond.

Eve is not a (it pains me just to repeat this cliche) cold, harsh universe. There is nothing hardcore about any computer game ever. You fly pixel spaceships and they get blown up. Some people take that too seriously but that is irrelevant to the reality of the fact that you are playing a game with pretend stuff in it.

You can easily play this game casually just as it is. It is possible to earn ISK, fly spaceships and find fights with very little dedication to this game.

So can we please stop claiming this game is hardcore?

No, they're not.

Ladies and gentlemen, the nullsec arguement

You make it sound like any negative change to hisec is going to be followed by a veritable exodus from the game; it isn't, not unless the nerfs were huge.

If someone's going to quit eve if refinery efficiency were turned down a notch, if sales taxes and manufacturing costs were increased, then they're on the way out anyways. Short of that, unless CCP manages to completely nuke hisec from orbit, then no, people aren't going to quit.

Well, lets dismantle this here ignorance.



This is the standard high sec dweller false equivilancy BS that they actually believe.

High sec is NOT THE EQUAL of other parts of EVE-space. EVE is a sandbox MMO where players make and are the content. Players make and are the content everywhere BUT high sec which is a pseudo-theme park stable area for new players and trade.

Why these concepts are incomprehensible to high sec people is beyond me, but i believe it has much to do with preference over-riding perception.



Yes they do, and in an sandbox MMO where players make and are the content, too many players doing that rather than participating in the real player driven game outside of protected space is a bad deal, which is why CCP has been trying to entice people out of high sec for a decade (with some success given that EVE is still alive and many player play in null, low and WH space).



In some ways the DEVs ARE complying, and some of us are simply voicing our displeasure at the fact.

I can't speak for everyone, but i like EVE, not the thought of EVE, what EVE could someday be, not even what eve supposedly was way back in yesteryear, and it's simply annoying that people who can't understand that the problem is not the game but them (i'll bet the malcontents of the eve community live people unhappy real lives too) keep acting like everything is so terrible.


lol, and yet change after change has come, and the only time there has been a massive unsub is when ccp tried to shove some bad thi9ngs down the communities throat?

Where is your evidence of what you believe (or are you the type that doesn't need evidence to form a belief, so long and it conforms to what you already want to believe)?

You (like me) can only speak for yourself, YOU might leave if high sec were put into it's proper place in the grand scheme of EVE, but you simply don't know what other people would do and should not pretend otherwise.

Your problem is your personal filter making what others say seem like something else entirely. I'm sorry, that perception problem is YOUR problem, not mine.

The people who understand that eve is a sandbox (which means that EVERYONE can play how they want, even those who intend harm to YOU) are jnot the problem, the people who want eve to be some kind of something else (like other games) is IMO the problem.

I eagerly await your next post in which you totally lose the plot lol.

I think I understand where our viewpoints differ.
I will only address this the once, then I'm going to step away, as we would stop discussing Facts and Figures and start discussing opinion (which generally tends to turn out not very well), and I'm trying to keep this civil and reasonable.

We both agree that Nulsec Industry is broken and needs to be addressed.
We don't agree however on the magnitude of balancing required in both directions.
I also believe, that your main argument will be Risk/Reward, Nulsec should reward more than any other area, because you risk more than in any other area. This is your viewpoint, correct?

My opinion is this :-
The reward offered by Nulsec is the greater diversity, quality and abundance of resources.

If you examine what Risk is, it's little more than your ship exploding
This can happen in Nulsec, Losec, J-Space and in Highsec
There are no mechanisms that prevent your ship being destroyed in any region (barring Stations and POS Shields)
So therefore the Risk accrued in any 1 region of eve is no lesser or greater than in any other.

Addressing Nulsec Industry from this viewpoint, leaves you only able to state Nulsec Industry should be the same as Highsec Industry, neither more profitable nor less profitable.

Thanks for staying civil over the last couple of posts.

The problem is that in a system with -0.7 and Military Index 5, there are not enough anomalies to support more than 10 people running hubs/havens and the super rare sanctum. FA has almost 3000 pilots. Accounting for even 1/3 of them being Titan alts, logistics pilots, etc. That is potentially 2000 people that need some place to make money. One system can support 10. So what do the other 1990 people who want to make cash do?

I am sure there are a lot of people making cash by seeding the market, doing highsec trading, doing invention and other industry activities ... but again ... THOSE ONLY HAPPEN IN HIGHSEC. 0.0 manufacturing is garbage. 0.0 invention is terrible. 0.0 mining does not get enough low end minerals to produce stuff, so trit needs to be imported to indy it up. So let us assume that of the 2000 people who are active, that 1000 are actually shooting red crosses for their cash.

We would need 70-100 fully upgraded systems to cover 100% load of people looking to earn cash by shooting NPC rats. Having that kind of infrastructure is EXPENSIVE. Every system would need to be fully upgraded, and have an outpost. The SOV bill for that boggles the mind.

On the other hand, we have highsec. Industry is overflowing. Getting the minerals is as easy as shopping in 4-4. You can freighter your crap around in "relative" safety. EVERYONE has to shop in highsec to get the material to wage 0.0 war, or to 0.0 rat, so your goods WILL get sold. If you are not dumb, you will never die. You never have to dock up when a neutral enters system, or you get intel on an incoming gang. You never have to stop making money because you have made a solemn promise to your alliance and to your bro's that you will defend their stuffs against any and all aggressors. You just mindlessly do your cashflow activity until you get bored, or you can afford the next silly piece of bling for your already too expensive ship. 0.0 is a way of life and a promise. The push is to make it so people who want to be in 0.0 can stay there, and never have to leave to keep their own character functioning. If null alliances never had to shop in highsec, then indy corps would be clamouring to join null alliances because they could not move their goods. The 4-4 market would crash without the buying of thousands of combat ships and modules per day which get blown up in warfare.

Until MiniLuv started ganking freighters, and is now branching out in to ice interdiction and miner harassment 0.0 was 100% safe and secure way to make money. We have started to give you a small taste of how 0.0 lifestyle is, and then the whine threads start up. It is easy to sit on your golden throne and dictate how a playstyle you have never done is wrong, and how "nullbears" have it easy and need to quit whining. But you have never walked in my shoes, and your ignorance shows.

"But the moongoo and stuffz wahhhhh!!". Protip. The average grunt does not get access to moongoo cash except in reimbursement for PVP fleets. The money goes to keep the war machine running, and to pay for the spot of dirt we have stuck our flag in to and claimed as ours.

End thought? I hate highsec. I never want to go there. I am forced to go there to get ships and mods to do what I want to in null. I am forced to go there when the money opportunities in the little corner of space I live in dry up and the competition is too stiff. If I had the ability to buy everything I need, and make the money it takes to keep me going, I would never go to or care about what highsec does ever again.

That's not right.

The most in demand minerals are more readily available in high sec. The high ends that are most available in null don't carry enough demand, is generally what people are saying. Nor is that really the reward. It also assumes that everyone in null does the same thing.

Reward in EVE, from a gameplay perspective, basically boils down to wealth. There's no advantage to making wealth doing industry in null.



Way to just dismiss the risks of living in null. Because obviously everytime someone flies around high sec in a hauler, gethering thier "diverse, abundant, quality resources" they have to worry that the gates might be camped. I've never been pulled out of warp, halfway between two gates, and blown up while flying around high sec.



Frankly, high sec should be considerably more dependant on null sec industry.

You should also have to pay for the safety receive, in the form of increased taxes in stations, lower refine rates to curb the amount of low ends that are making it to market from high sec, increased production costs, and reduced production lines to move manufacturers into more systems.

It's not really about being able to make more in null than you can in high, that can never be fixed due to volumes. They can however make high sec LESS ATTRACTIVE for industrialists, and encourage them to go to null to build.

It's not bad to play in null as an industrialist; it's really not a huge scary place to live. Unfortunetly, because it's more affordable and easier to do business in high sec, there's no real reason for an industrialist to move to null.

No one goes to null for cheaper manufacturing, for more available lines, for quicker or cheaper research or invention. There is nothing that I could say to a budding industrialist, who just joined EVE, that would attract him to null. There's FFA pvp here? No. It's player run? That's cool, but no. We have bigger red crosses? Don't think that'll work.

"Just shut up and join" was enough for me, but it's not for the vast majority of industrialists who don't actually benefit from moving to null to do business. Who gives a **** about risk vs reward. Why play here has nothing to do with risk vs reward.

Risk/reward isn't my main argument, it's just the easiest to use. Hisec has low risk, high convenience and high capacity and low cost, whereas nullsec has (or would've had, if nullsec hadn't been totally depopulated to the point where roaming gangs have issues finding anyone) high risk, low convenience, low capacity and high costs, and that's just wrong.

The thing is, though, at its core, this is a bad game. In fact, it's a terrible game. For those who are playing hisec icemining online, a majority of those would probably be better off playing a better game called X3 or the like, and if I'd continued playing in hisec I would've quit this terrible game years ago, since there's not the incentive to set goals which involve other people for an extended period of time. I mean, there's a huge difference between "I'm making maelstroms to make 2m pr maelstrom just to watch my wallet tick upwards" and "I'm making maelstroms to aid my alliance in its war efforts".

Actually, if nothing else, nullsec should easily be able to outperform hisec, while hisec should be a place for those who are either so risk averse they actually get a headache whenever they even contemplate moving to low/null (i.e. the guys who whine about how their barge got popped in hisec where it's supposed to be safe), or who for some reason wants to pay a monthly fee to play a bad multiplayer version of X3.

In fact, the more I think of it, the more I think nullsec should be the preferred place to go for making ****, and that nullsec should be so much better than nullsec that people should want to build in nullsec and export to hisec, instead of today's situation where more than 80% of all manufacturing happens in hisec.

The reasons for this are as follows: Since this is a bad, bad game, you basically have to have human interaction and human-defined goals to last any appreciable length of time. Add to that the fact that if nullsec was the preferred place to build things, there'd be a lot more people there, which would in turn give PVPers more to snack on instead of spending their time in hisec griefing people who just don't want PVP. It would also give more people more reason to give a damn about what happens to their space, it would give rise to fleets doing more economic interdiction of the other guy's space by sending in roaming gangs to make miners etc dock up, and it would give the other guy an incentive to not just do what we do now, which is dock up and wait it out, but actually form up a defense fleet and kick their teeth in.

In short, it would be win-win for all parties, and this includes CCP.

This would be true except for the fact that while nullsec has major issues which needs sorting, hisec does have it set of issues as well. While nullsec has more resources in theory, hisec has more bodies with which to extract them, and at a much lower price than nullsec will be able to sustain due to the extra risk, since hisec's more or less totally safe to do so in (except for a few instances such as ice interdiction, but CCP has already given that one "fix" already, and when crimewatch 2.0 and killrights come derping by they'll give it another "fix").

This means that after nullsec has had its industrial capacity increased dramatically over today's standard, hisec'll have to have a few "fixes" applied to it to give nullsec some economic leeway to implement their own various taxes so they can move further to a bottom-up financing of the alliances. As it stands today, putting on a .5 or 1% refinery tax (I forget where the cutoff point is offhand) means that it makes economic sense to use a rorqual to compress the ore and ship it to hisec, instead of consuming it in nullsec.

Again, the reason I'm even talking about making changes to hisec is to make it so that once nullsec has one of its major bottlenecks removed, i.e. the complete and utter lack of manufacturing capacity, there's also an economic barrier to manufacturing things in hisec to export to nullsec, and if we're lucky maybe even an economic incentive for nullsec to build and export to hisec.

All to incentivize a larger population in nullsec, and as a direct result a more engaged and longer-lasting playerbase.