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Nerf Moaning Null Bears PLS
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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#241 - 2012-10-22 12:53:13 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
.
Except hisec's economic competitive advantage will be decreased if nullsec ever gets an industrial buff.



Possibly.......but it won't make a soul leave for Null or Low who has not already.

A decade has not been long enough to force that kind of movement from High Sec.....nothing will, except the removal of all stations from High Sec. Except instead of removing to Null or Low, they will then remove themselves from the game.

I don't know about you, but I'm not aiming at people who haven't moved to nullsec in some capacity already, I'm aiming at the people who have proven that they're willing to take at least some risk, but they've wisened up to the fact that hisec is way too good at manufacturing that it doesn't make sense in any way, shape or form to try to do manufacturing in nullsec.

I've tried doing nullsec manufacturing, it sucks dicks through a straw, so I moved back to hisec.


Agreed.

In 2 1/2 years of reading about Null Hijinx, be it the Blob Warfare or the horrid manufacturing, there just is not anything appealing about getting involved there at all. No reason to go there. More money from Faction Bling finds ? I have enough money where I'm at to be happy.

Null would have to change utterly to spur any interest in the casual game player at all. And the Null's would not like that at all.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2012-10-22 13:00:02 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Agreed.

In 2 1/2 years of reading about Null Hijinx, be it the Blob Warfare or the horrid manufacturing, there just is not anything appealing about getting involved there at all. No reason to go there. More money from Faction Bling finds ? I have enough money where I'm at to be happy.

Null would have to change utterly to spur any interest in the casual game player at all. And the Null's would not like that at all.

Depends on how casual the gamers you want to get are. If you're looking at the current "hurr MY BARGE GOT GANKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT DO YOU MEAN PUT A TANK ON IT IT WOULD HURT MY YIELD!!!!!!!!!!!!! **** GOONS!!!!!!!!!!!" whiners, then I can't express how little I want them to move into nullsec. No, I'd settle for industry being more or less as laid back as it is currently in hisec, and for that to happen doesn't necessitate null to "change utterly".

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Dar Manic
Dirt Road Services
#243 - 2012-10-22 13:05:52 UTC
If people are screaming for more pew pew then buffing Null indy is the WRONG answer. By making them move the stuff around, you increase the chance of something getting blown up (another target to be shot at). In the model being proposed with the buff the Null indy scheme, you can mine it and produce it all in one place.

Besides, I thought all REAL men lived in Null... increasing Null Indy is like having electricity in your 'roughing it' log cabin. Not exactly roughing it, eh? ;)

I just don't understand null sec players.

**Please note: **Anytime I use the phrase PvP in a post, I'm talking about shooting/combat/killing things/blowing things up. Thank you.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#244 - 2012-10-22 13:13:23 UTC
Dar Manic wrote:
If people are screaming for more pew pew then buffing Null indy is the WRONG answer. By making them move the stuff around, you increase the chance of something getting blown up (another target to be shot at). In the model being proposed with the buff the Null indy scheme, you can mine it and produce it all in one place.

Besides, I thought all REAL men lived in Null... increasing Null Indy is like having electricity in your 'roughing it' log cabin. Not exactly roughing it, eh? ;)

Buffing null industry would encourage more people to live there. The materials for production still have to be moved around. It would encourage more PVP because more people would be mining, producing, doing PI, etc. in nullsec instead of using jump freighters to bring things in from highsec (which doesn't really encourage any PVP except in the only place where jump freighters can really be caught - highsec).

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#245 - 2012-10-22 13:14:19 UTC
Dar Manic wrote:
If people are screaming for more pew pew then buffing Null indy is the WRONG answer. By making them move the stuff around, you increase the chance of something getting blown up (another target to be shot at). In the model being proposed with the buff the Null indy scheme, you can mine it and produce it all in one place.

More people actually living in nullsec = more people flying about = more potential targets.

You don't mine while sitting in a station.

Dar Manic wrote:
Besides, I thought all REAL men lived in Null... increasing Null Indy is like having electricity in your 'roughing it' log cabin. Not exactly roughing it, eh? ;)

A common misconception. Nullsec isn't supposed to be the equivalent of a no-facilities log cabin.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#246 - 2012-10-22 13:20:14 UTC
Dar Manic wrote:
I
Besides, I thought all REAL men lived in Null... increasing Null Indy is like having electricity in your 'roughing it' log cabin. Not exactly roughing it, eh? ;)


The best version of null is, you are correct, a "roughing it" log cabin by default.

The idea is though that by common strength of will, organisation and ultimately submission to someone else's will for a greater good you can build a home worth living in where it's not a log cabin, more like a castle with farms and fields, a town market and all the other mod cons of the time.

The reason it should be like that is to:

1) Give you an incentive to live IN null rather then just PvP there (to use your analogy it's currently better to live in a city/suburbs and then travel to the log cabin to hunt),
2) Give you a reason to defend it (I didn't want that space anyway becomes a rubbish argument)
3) To make "rubbish" null sec a lot less rubbish with enough work (if the rubbish space can be made "OK" but the good space is always "rubbish" because stuff is always burnt downthere, who's laughing?)
4) To give you a reason to invade your opponent's territory without necessarily taking it.

Why do so many people who have never lived in null feel the need to comment about it?

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#247 - 2012-10-22 13:28:38 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Agreed.

In 2 1/2 years of reading about Null Hijinx, be it the Blob Warfare or the horrid manufacturing, there just is not anything appealing about getting involved there at all. No reason to go there. More money from Faction Bling finds ? I have enough money where I'm at to be happy.

Null would have to change utterly to spur any interest in the casual game player at all. And the Null's would not like that at all.

Depends on how casual the gamers you want to get are. If you're looking at the current "hurr MY BARGE GOT GANKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT DO YOU MEAN PUT A TANK ON IT IT WOULD HURT MY YIELD!!!!!!!!!!!!! **** GOONS!!!!!!!!!!!" whiners, then I can't express how little I want them to move into nullsec. No, I'd settle for industry being more or less as laid back as it is currently in hisec, and for that to happen doesn't necessitate null to "change utterly".


Probably right. It's the mindset of the current Null denizens that must change, not necessarily the mechanics of Null.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#248 - 2012-10-22 13:33:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitty Bear
Lord Zim wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Pray tell, how will reducing the manufacturing and research slots' efficiency (be it mineral-wise or cost-wise) in hisec have any impact on whether or not your ship will go kersplode?


Risk/Reward = Exploding Ships .. you introduced it for some bizarre reason ...

Nullsec: more risk than hisec, shittier industry
Hisec: no risk, best industry

Gee, such a bizarre reason.

Kitty Bear wrote:
Mostly though your favourite word is "nerf"
The problem i have with the word nerf .... it's negative
It implies the person saying nerf xyz has put no thought into thier argument.
it implies the person using it has no argument, or solution to a problem.

And now you're interpreting things given your own viewpoint. You have three ways to fix a power imbalance, one is to buff one side of the imbalance, and one is to nerf the other, to bring balance. In some cases, you have to do a combination where you buff one side and nerf the other. This is one of those cases, and I've laid out very specifically why the changes I'm arguing for should happen.

1) Nullsec industry capacity must be buffed heavily compared to what it is now, to the point where it's possible to not just match the best system in hisec, but far surpass it.
2) It must be easier to refine in the same system as production happens
3) Hisec manufacturing slot costs should increase to add as an extra economic incentive to not build in hisec for export to nullsec
4) Hisec sales tax could be increased slightly to act as a better isk sink to help deflate the monetary inflation EVE is under, and to allow nullsec entities to set higher sales taxes (which, of course, should go to the station's owner) to help with building up bottom-up financing of alliances.
5) Maybe even make hisec manufacturing less efficient with minerals, to further dissuade f.ex making guns for export to nullsec
6) Maybe even make hisec refineries less efficient with compressed ore, to further dissuade f.ex compressing ore for export to hisec, and to enable nullsec entities to actually add a small refinery tax, to help with building up bottom-up financing of alliances.

Kitty Bear wrote:
I'd prefer to see the word "fix" used
Fix is far more positive, constructive.

Lets look at a "Fix Manufacturing and Research in Nulsec" option (because we want to be positive AND constructive)
First we need to examine why it's lacking or 'broken'
We do this by stating "Nulsec has severly limited Industrial Facilities compared to it's highsec equivalent"
This is not opinion, or conjecture. It's an easily proven fact, just compare the average (Fact 1) Highsec System to a Nulsec Region with regards to Infrastructure quantity.
Fact 2 "Nulsec Facilities are limited because the number of stations that can be built is limited"
Fact 3 "Nulsec Facilities are limited because of the increased logistics required in nulsec"

Theone solution then becomes
"Allowing multiple Stations to be constructed within the same system, will afford some measure of redressing the disparity between Highsec and Nulsec Industry with regards to manufacturing and Research Slots"
This is something that you can take to CCP, because it's not a 'nerf' request
It's a reasonable and VALID request for consideration.

And that is but a part of the "fix", since the "fix" still doesn't solve the problem of it making more economic sense to build in hisec and import, and it doesn't solve the problem of miners compressing their ore and sending it to hisec for refinery there.

And the problem with constantly adding buffs all over the place is that this is what's commonly known as "power creep", or power inflation if you must. If you buff one shiptype, like f.ex titans, you can either buff a whole lot of other ships to make them more "in line" with the titans, but that means those ships are suddenly overpowered compared to smaller ships so they need to be buffed, which means those ships are suddenly overpowered to the ships a tier down again, etc etc etc. All that could be avoided by looking at what the problem actually is, and fixing that problem. Sometimes, the fix is nerfing something instead of buffing everything else. And, hisec's manufacturing ability is overpowered compared to the other space categories.

Painting someone who doesn't just say "BUFF ALL THE THINGS" as "hurr durr durr you just say nerf you have no clue" is incongruous when the nerfs are small and better reasoned than "hurr I hate hisec nerf hisec".


I think you missed my point in the 2nd half of my post really. the 1st half was just me stating an an opinion i have.

My main focus was this really.
Currently Nulsec Industry is underwhelming, pathetic and worthless.
The current restrictions and limitations prevent you from doing anything to rememdy the situation.
Get CCP to remove those limitations and restrictions.
Build the infrastructure needed to make nulsec industry worthwhile.
It's not powercreep, it's achieving CCP's original stated intended use and purpose of nulsec space.

That Intent and purpose was a place for players to BUILD thier own empires.



[edit]
And yes, I believe this will make a difference
Why would someone need to ferry materials between hisec & nulsec, if there is no financial advantage to do so.
Austneal
Nero Fazione
#249 - 2012-10-22 13:33:22 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:


What you SHOULD be doing...


Yeah... doesn't anyone play Eve correctly? Jeez
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#250 - 2012-10-22 13:33:50 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
It's the mindset of the current Null denizens that must change

Why?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#251 - 2012-10-22 13:35:29 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
It's the mindset of the current Null denizens that must change, not necessarily the mechanics of Null.

Explain.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#252 - 2012-10-22 13:48:08 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
I think you missed my point in the 2nd half of my post really. the 1st half was just me stating an an opinion i have.

Yes, you were making a big deal out of someone using the word "nerf" instead of "fix". I don't do politically correct, so when I mean nerf, I say nerf.

Kitty Bear wrote:
My main focus was this really.
Currently Nulsec Industry is underwhelming, pathetic and worthless.
The current restrictions and limitations prevent you from doing anything to rememdy the situation.
Get CCP to remove those limitations and restrictions.
Build the infrastructure needed to make nulsec industry worthwhile.
It's not powercreep, it's achieving CCP's original stated intended use and purpose of nulsec space.

That Intent and purpose was a place for players to BUILD thier own empires.

And fixing this situation would involve buffing nullsec industry capacity and convenience (by making refineries work in the same place as you manufacture) and nerfing hisec slightly (to give economic incentives for people to stop exporting minerals to hisec whenever the station owner added any sort of refinery tax, to disuade making/hauling in guns to refine and use those minerals to build with, to dissuade people from exporting compressed ore from nullsec, and to dissuade people from manufacturing ships and mods etc in hisec and exporting them to nullsec).


Kitty Bear wrote:
[edit]
And yes, I believe this will make a difference
Why would someone need to ferry materials between hisec & nulsec, if there is no financial advantage to do so.

Convenience. I imported a fair bit of guns, because it meant I didn't have to mine. Others who mine send compressed ore back to hisec because it yields a higher payback than selling it in nullsec.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#253 - 2012-10-22 14:15:26 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
It's the mindset of the current Null denizens that must change, not necessarily the mechanics of Null.

Explain.



Don't have to. There are practically libriries of archived Forum Threads on this accumulated over the past decade.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#254 - 2012-10-22 14:16:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Austneal wrote:
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:


What you SHOULD be doing...


Yeah... doesn't anyone play Eve correctly? Jeez


Some do, some don't.

Some (#1s)come in, recognize the nature of the game (which is cold, hard conflict, pvp and one of the game industry's most unforgiving death penalties), decide whether that game is for them or not, and leave or stay based on what they find.

Others (#2s) come in expecting the universe (both the game universe and the actual physical "real" universe) to cater to them personally because they paid 15 bucks. They try to play a multi-player game like it's a single players game, they try to play a hardcore game "casually" and they never leave protected newbie space, thenbitch and moan about everything, tell the developers to change the game to suit them and get mad at everyone else for pointing out how dumb that is....

Seems like the #2s are multiplying like rabbits for some reason, or maybe they've always been here and I didn't notice over the sound of actually playing the game.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#255 - 2012-10-22 14:17:32 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
It's the mindset of the current Null denizens that must change, not necessarily the mechanics of Null.

Explain.



Don't have to. There are practically libriries of archived Forum Threads on this accumulated over the past decade.

Translation: I was asked to clarify what I considered wrong with the null player mindset and what I think it should be, but I didn't actually have anything in mind and was just using it as a talking point, so I'll pretend the argument makes itself and dodge the question entirely.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#256 - 2012-10-22 14:19:37 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
It's the mindset of the current Null denizens that must change, not necessarily the mechanics of Null.

Explain.



Don't have to. There are practically libriries of archived Forum Threads on this accumulated over the past decade.

Translation: I was asked to clarify what I considered wrong with the null player mindset and what I think it should be, but I didn't actually have anything in mind and was just using it as a talking point, so I'll pretend the argument makes itself and dodge the question entirely.



-1 Troll Post.

Can you not search the Archives yourself ? Bespeaks of your own laziness.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#257 - 2012-10-22 14:24:10 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Bespeaks of your own laziness.

Says the person who refuses to actually clarify his argument besides "go find it yourself".

Even if I did, that still wouldn't answer anything about what YOU think is wrong with it or how YOU perceive it. Nobody can tell me that but you.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#258 - 2012-10-22 14:26:04 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
It's the mindset of the current Null denizens that must change, not necessarily the mechanics of Null.

Explain.



Don't have to. There are practically libriries of archived Forum Threads on this accumulated over the past decade.

If you refuse to back up your argument, then by default; you are wrong.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#259 - 2012-10-22 14:26:21 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
It's the mindset of the current Null denizens that must change, not necessarily the mechanics of Null.

Explain.

Don't have to. There are practically libriries of archived Forum Threads on this accumulated over the past decade.

Seeing as I'm a lazy **** and I can't be arsed to spend hours trying to find whatever piece of information you're referencing amongst literally a fucktonne of hisec sperg, I'm going to just assume that what you're thinking of is that nullsec people "aren't putting in enough effort", and that "this needs to change", in which case I'll just respond with "heh which universe are you playing in? it can't be eve."

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#260 - 2012-10-22 14:26:58 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
It's the mindset of the current Null denizens that must change, not necessarily the mechanics of Null.

Explain.



Don't have to. There are practically libriries of archived Forum Threads on this accumulated over the past decade.

If you refuse to back up your argument, then by default; you are wrong.



Astro wins, ccp must no lock this thread. it's in the forum rules somewhere, Win = lock.