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Orca or Providence
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Idris Helion
Doomheim
#21 - 2012-10-17 17:40:56 UTC
If you're serious about mining, you really need both an Orca and a freighter. Trit is profitable, but only in bulk, and to ship enough bulk minerals to market, you need a freighter. For ore and minerals, the freighter is great, but for most other freight (especially high-value stuff) use an Orca. The coprorate hangars are unscannable and drop no loot even if you do get ganked; and the Orca can be tanked far better than a freighter can be. Further, the Orca can carry 400,000m3 of assembled ships -- which means it's great for exploration or far-afield mining ops (like in WH space).

The ore bay on the Orca is kind of useless now that the mining barge buffs have gone into effect, though. I wish CCP would re-dedicate that space to either general cargo or to additional ship bay capacity.
Denal Umbra
Coffee Hub
#22 - 2012-10-17 17:51:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Denal Umbra
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:

Great advice, but you are not mentioning the tremendous yield increase advantage the Orca Fleet Boost provides. This is important when functioning as a "2-Account Solo Mining OP".

My Orca was just fine for 2 years until I simply needed a freighter to take my Ore from my "NPC Station-less System POS" 3 jumps to be refined. I then 'safely' haul the minerals in Orca to Market. (A Freighter full of Pyrox, refined to minerals, hardly uses any room in the Orca).


Mining boosts? Solo op?

The only time you are gaining anything from bringing an orca to the field, instead of another barge is if you have 4+ accounts. Two macks/retrievers provide a much higher yield per hour than a mack/ret+orca will. Even then, the amount of minerals you produce with 4 toons merits a freighter to haul them away later

An orca only makes sense if you are either doing a fleet mining op (4+ toons) or are transporting high-value, low volume goods.

Edit: Grammar
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#23 - 2012-10-17 21:00:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Idris Helion
Denal Umbra wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:

Great advice, but you are not mentioning the tremendous yield increase advantage the Orca Fleet Boost provides. This is important when functioning as a "2-Account Solo Mining OP".

My Orca was just fine for 2 years until I simply needed a freighter to take my Ore from my "NPC Station-less System POS" 3 jumps to be refined. I then 'safely' haul the minerals in Orca to Market. (A Freighter full of Pyrox, refined to minerals, hardly uses any room in the Orca).


Mining boosts? Solo op?

The only time you are gaining anything from bringing an orca to the field, instead of another barge is if you have 4+ accounts. Two macks/retrievers provide a much higher yield per hour than a mack/ret+orca will. Even then, the amount of minerals you produce with 4 toons merits a freighter to haul them away later

An orca only makes sense if you are either doing a fleet mining op (4+ toons) or are transporting high-value, low volume goods.

Edit: Grammar


Actually, an Orca makes an excellent exploration and mission-support vessel in that it can carry unpackaged ships in its bay and provide fitting services while in space. It's almost like a "mobile POS" in that way. You can also do some salvaging with it if you don't have a Rorqual around (that big bonus to tractor beam helps in pulling in wrecks from 80km+ away).

EDIT: I meant Noctis, not Rorqual.
Reticle
Sight Picture
#24 - 2012-10-17 21:05:13 UTC
An orca doesn't help you much if you aren't fielding at least two hulks/macks or more (there are several threads in this subforum on that topic). It also takes more than twice the time to train than a freighter character. If you don't have a mining fleet, stick with the Providence.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#25 - 2012-10-17 22:09:58 UTC
Denal Umbra wrote:

The only time you are gaining anything from bringing an orca to the field, instead of another barge is if you USE TWO HULKS



Fixed that for you, since you made absolutely no mention of them as I did in my posting. Do not argue with experience. Done.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#26 - 2012-10-17 22:11:42 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:


Actually, an Orca makes an excellent exploration and mission-support vessel in that it can carry unpackaged ships in its bay and provide fitting services while in space. It's almost like a "mobile POS" in that way. You can also do some salvaging with it if you don't have a Rorqual around (that big bonus to tractor beam helps in pulling in wrecks from 80km+ away).



All excellent points too. Besides, the cost of a freighter is also what kept me away until year 2.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Reticle
Sight Picture
#27 - 2012-10-18 00:23:48 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Idris Helion wrote:


Actually, an Orca makes an excellent exploration and mission-support vessel in that it can carry unpackaged ships in its bay and provide fitting services while in space. It's almost like a "mobile POS" in that way. You can also do some salvaging with it if you don't have a Rorqual around (that big bonus to tractor beam helps in pulling in wrecks from 80km+ away).



All excellent points too. Besides, the cost of a freighter is also what kept me away until year 2.

I recently bought a charon and paid it off in under a month with some diligent mining.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#28 - 2012-10-18 03:33:29 UTC
Orca.
Dave Viker
Do you even Exist.
#29 - 2012-10-18 07:04:57 UTC
So I've just bought my Orca first.
I'm happy that my Orca almost holds 200m³ (if i remember correctly).
The only bad thing is, i can't hold minerals in my orehold (as someone already said).
For now, I'm refining as much as I can, putting the minerals into the corphangar and standard ship cargo,
and i also safe some ore up for the orehold, so that I have max usage of all my cargos.

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Denal Umbra
Coffee Hub
#30 - 2012-10-18 07:27:57 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Denal Umbra wrote:

The only time you are gaining anything from bringing an orca to the field, instead of another barge is if you USE TWO HULKS



Fixed that for you, since you made absolutely no mention of them as I did in my posting. Do not argue with experience. Done.


That is assuming he uses two maxed skilled hulks and a max skilled orca (with mindlink) for boosting which is not the case. Even so, it would still need 3 accounts and about half a year of training on each of them to reach the levels where you can just use 3 accounts and gain a 'slight' boost with using an orca.

Max skilled hulk (with michi+5% imp) bring in about 100k /m3 per hour
Max skilled hulk + max skilled orca boost brings that to 158k / m3 per hour.

However, assuming that the orca does not have a mindlink yet nor ore command ships 5, then that brings a boosted max skilled hulk to
137k / m3 per hour.

Assuming that you do not have Exhumer 5 yet nor are using Michis or a +5 (just a +3) then it brings down the "boosted" hulks yield to roughly ~125k / m3 per hour.

You will be breaking even compared to the orca boosts only if you have 4 accounts in 'decent' skilled hulks by fielding an orca instead of the 2 you claim from experience. Especially if the toon has just finished training to fly an orca.

However, if you have 100% dedicated mining accounts that are max skilled with expensive implants then yes, 2 hulks+orca is better than 3 macks. Otherwise, you are better off bringing another ret/mack instead of a orca. Unless... you are lazy and don't want to move the ore to station so much and just want it as a 'mobile base' and will only take the 25-35% boost from an orca.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#31 - 2012-10-18 12:48:14 UTC
Denal Umbra wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Denal Umbra wrote:

The only time you are gaining anything from bringing an orca to the field, instead of another barge is if you USE TWO HULKS


Fixed that for you, since you made absolutely no mention of them as I did in my posting. Do not argue with experience. Done.


That is assuming he uses two maxed skilled hulks and a max skilled orca (with mindlink) for boosting which is not the case. Even so, it would still need 3 accounts and about half a year of training on each of them to reach the levels where you can just use 3 accounts and gain a 'slight' boost with using an orca.


Thanks for strengthening my advice. I doubt he was asking for what would max him out 'only for the present moment'.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-10-18 13:03:03 UTC
Denal Umbra wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Denal Umbra wrote:

The only time you are gaining anything from bringing an orca to the field, instead of another barge is if you USE TWO HULKS



Fixed that for you, since you made absolutely no mention of them as I did in my posting. Do not argue with experience. Done.


That is assuming he uses two maxed skilled hulks and a max skilled orca (with mindlink) for boosting which is not the case. Even so, it would still need 3 accounts and about half a year of training on each of them to reach the levels where you can just use 3 accounts and gain a 'slight' boost with using an orca.

Max skilled hulk (with michi+5% imp) bring in about 100k /m3 per hour
Max skilled hulk + max skilled orca boost brings that to 158k / m3 per hour.

However, assuming that the orca does not have a mindlink yet nor ore command ships 5, then that brings a boosted max skilled hulk to
137k / m3 per hour.

Assuming that you do not have Exhumer 5 yet nor are using Michis or a +5 (just a +3) then it brings down the "boosted" hulks yield to roughly ~125k / m3 per hour.

You will be breaking even compared to the orca boosts only if you have 4 accounts in 'decent' skilled hulks by fielding an orca instead of the 2 you claim from experience. Especially if the toon has just finished training to fly an orca.

However, if you have 100% dedicated mining accounts that are max skilled with expensive implants then yes, 2 hulks+orca is better than 3 macks. Otherwise, you are better off bringing another ret/mack instead of a orca. Unless... you are lazy and don't want to move the ore to station so much and just want it as a 'mobile base' and will only take the 25-35% boost from an orca.


I've got some experience here, so I can give some real-world answers: with 3 miners, it's better to have them all in Macks running lasers on rocks. If you have 4 miners, the math shifts and Orca + 3 Hulks overtakes the 3 Macks. It's still pretty borderline, though. (One advantage of having an Orca in the belt - you can loot and salvage popped rats, which augments your income.) More than 4 miners and the math isn't even close: Orca plus Hulks is the best way to go, yield-wise.

A lot of this math depends on the skills of the miners in the fleet, though. Your Orca pilot should have at least the Mining Foreman skill up to IV if not V, have good Industrial Command Ship skills, and have the relevant implants. You may find that the mix of skills of your mining crew means that the yield benefit of Orca + Hulks isn't as great as it might be with high skills.
Mar Mite
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2012-10-18 22:27:44 UTC
get the orca first and worry about a freighter later. The orca has so many uses, it is certainly one of, if not the most versatile ships in the game. A freighter is great and very handy, but it has a single purpose and requires a rather large investment. I sold my freighter and just use Red Frog to ship my stuff. Most of the time it take less than 24hrs and it would take a very large # of trips in your freighter to actually save you isk over using such a service.

The use of collateral in courier contracts eliminates any risk associated with the transport of goods, since the courier now takes on all this exposure. Freighters are not only ganked for profit and if you do lose a freighter+its cargo, that is a pretty costly scenario. Also, flying freighters is slooooowww and very boring.

Also, if I am in no hurry and feeling cheap then I will often post public courier contracts(always with about 120% collateral) at about 1/3rd the cost of red frog. Usually these get picked up and completed within a couple days and are very cost effective.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-10-19 00:59:55 UTC
Mar Mite wrote:
get the orca first and worry about a freighter later. The orca has so many uses, it is certainly one of, if not the most versatile ships in the game. A freighter is great and very handy, but it has a single purpose and requires a rather large investment. I sold my freighter and just use Red Frog to ship my stuff. Most of the time it take less than 24hrs and it would take a very large # of trips in your freighter to actually save you isk over using such a service.


This.

I have 3 orca pilots, and I don't even mine. I have one freighter pilot and my Obelisk mostly collects dust.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#35 - 2012-10-20 06:54:48 UTC
I first went for a Charon, because, I wanted it, now I see that Orca is the way to go, and Charon will be the backup in just a few short hours.

You see, once you fly a freighter, after a few days of flying it around, I got a message, to form a battleship fleet, well, the battleship felt like a frigate after flying that thing around for that long.

Freighters are painfully slow.
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-10-20 14:07:41 UTC
I feel like i am recently posting the same thing in every thread. Apologies -.-


Anyways, here it goes: Hauling is the only profession even more boring than mining. In addition, it also pays less. Get yourself an Orca for the mining bonuses and use courier contracts for the long distance hauling to the hub. The time that you would sit in a freighter is better used by sitting in the belt again. Also, you won't have to buy (and risk!) a 1.5b ship. Let someone else waste their time and ISK with that.

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
YuuKnow
The Scope
#37 - 2012-10-21 18:40:40 UTC
What you should do (OP) is look at the largest time sink that you have in your profits. If your spending more time in hauling than in mining then the Providence would probably be the better bet. The orca holds about 1/7th the capacity of the Providence, but takes longer to train to max.

Or in the long run you can always train both.

yk
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