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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5041 - 2012-10-21 17:13:28 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
My god, why do Draek theads always end up as fitting advice to uncreative Drake pilots? What?Lol


That's a very good question.


That fitting of yours would die in fire vs the Cane of mine :) like I said, will do the test soon enough and fraps it too :)
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5042 - 2012-10-21 18:22:09 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
My god, why do Draek theads always end up as fitting advice to uncreative Drake pilots? What?Lol


That's a very good question.


That fitting of yours would die in fire vs the Cane of mine :) like I said, will do the test soon enough and fraps it too :)


It loses to dual neut AC Cane if Drake pilot is stupid enough to warp to neut range.
Lili Lu
#5043 - 2012-10-21 18:29:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
It loses to dual neut AC Cane if Drake pilot is stupid enough to warp to neut range.

A dual neut ac cane that is no longer a 425 dual medium neut cane per the cane nerf in the op (?)

I see so much less butthurt posting from cane pilots itt because I would bet most of them are busy trying to figure out how to adjust fittings instead of whining, like spoiled drake pilots are doing.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5044 - 2012-10-21 21:24:25 UTC
I am speaking of an arty Cane, obviously. But never mind, you dont have a combat char anyway :)
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5045 - 2012-10-21 21:26:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Lili Lu wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
It loses to dual neut AC Cane if Drake pilot is stupid enough to warp to neut range.

A dual neut ac cane that is no longer a 425 dual medium neut cane per the cane nerf in the op (?)

I see so much less butthurt posting from cane pilots itt because I would bet most of them are busy trying to figure out how to adjust fittings instead of whining, like spoiled drake pilots are doing.


That reason you give here is the one you see with your perception. There might be another reason for this too, that is .. if the Cane wont work so good anymore, there will be plenty of other winmatar projectile ships left, which *do* work :) so not so much reason to be upset. But all this has been said before. If you dont want to see the light you wont see it. :)
Sunviking
Doomheim
#5046 - 2012-10-21 21:36:16 UTC
I love these changes.

Not too bothered about Heavy Missiles getting nerfed.

Love it that HAMs are getting buffed, especially Javelin T2s.

Love that Rage Torps are getting range and damage buffed. So so excellent. And Javelin Torps will be great.

Love it that Lights are getting easier fitting requirements. But a damage buff too? Coo-al.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5047 - 2012-10-21 22:36:21 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
That reason you give here is the one you see with your perception. There might be another reason for this too, that is .. if the Cane wont work so good anymore, there will be plenty of other winmatar projectile ships left, which *do* work :) so not so much reason to be upset. But all this has been said before. If you dont want to see the light you wont see it. :)

You *will* have HAM and Torp to play with.
Sigras
Conglomo
#5048 - 2012-10-21 22:51:12 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
That reason you give here is the one you see with your perception. There might be another reason for this too, that is .. if the Cane wont work so good anymore, there will be plenty of other winmatar projectile ships left, which *do* work :) so not so much reason to be upset. But all this has been said before. If you dont want to see the light you wont see it. :)

Name one . . .

im not sure if you've ever seen a vagabond try to take on a drake, but its quite like seeing a dune buggy vs a mack truck in a demolition derby

sure, the vaga would have to do something seriously stupid to lose, but it would never ever win that fight.

what about the tengu vs the loki? same story pretty much . . .

How about the rupture vs . . . oh wait thats a T1 cruiser . . .

What about the tempest vs . . . oh wait tracking and speed issues.

What about the tornado? possibly . . . even though its paper thin and gets blown up by bombers . . .

What about the rifter? aHA, the rifter is still a good ship ok I found one . . .

Wow youre right, so many totally overpowered projectile ships that work so well . . .
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5049 - 2012-10-21 23:01:43 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
That reason you give here is the one you see with your perception. There might be another reason for this too, that is .. if the Cane wont work so good anymore, there will be plenty of other winmatar projectile ships left, which *do* work :) so not so much reason to be upset. But all this has been said before. If you dont want to see the light you wont see it. :)

Name one . . .

im not sure if you've ever seen a vagabond try to take on a drake, but its quite like seeing a dune buggy vs a mack truck in a demolition derby

sure, the vaga would have to do something seriously stupid to lose, but it would never ever win that fight.

what about the tengu vs the loki? same story pretty much . . .

How about the rupture vs . . . oh wait thats a T1 cruiser . . .

What about the tempest vs . . . oh wait tracking and speed issues.

What about the tornado? possibly . . . even though its paper thin and gets blown up by bombers . . .

What about the rifter? aHA, the rifter is still a good ship ok I found one . . .

Wow youre right, so many totally overpowered projectile ships that work so well . . .


You mean projectile/Minmatar ships are bad? :) Is that your point? Sorry, but I dont buy that one.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5050 - 2012-10-21 23:03:05 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
That reason you give here is the one you see with your perception. There might be another reason for this too, that is .. if the Cane wont work so good anymore, there will be plenty of other winmatar projectile ships left, which *do* work :) so not so much reason to be upset. But all this has been said before. If you dont want to see the light you wont see it. :)

You *will* have HAM and Torp to play with.


your perception, again. For sure we will not have Torp working with a Raven after this patch. Maybe in future times. And about that guy who said rage Torps range will be buffed .. read again.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#5051 - 2012-10-21 23:09:37 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
your perception, again. For sure we will not have Torp working with a Raven after this patch. Maybe in future times. And about that guy who said rage Torps range will be buffed .. read again.

And for sure you perception about raven torp which won't work in the future is certain truth.
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#5052 - 2012-10-21 23:29:44 UTC
Quote:

I think the problem is that you're using your experience when saying that turrets apply more damage, and thats totally understandable, but not at all how you should go about balancing things.

everything has to be balanced around the best players. Sure against 90% of players, turrets will do more damage than missiles because they *herp* *derp* set approach and press F1, but you dont balance around all of the morons, you have to balance around the best.

I guarantee you'd be far better off in a drake than you would in a harbinger if the frigate tackling you were piloted by garmon

Its just like starcraft, right now im gold league, and I think storm is totally imba, its impossible to dodge and kills me every time, but they dont balance around people like me, they have to balance for the best people in the world, or the super GSL code S players would completely break the game.

Its the same here; they could balance around you fighting me, but if they did that, someone like garmon could use greater piloting skill to be completely unbeatable.



There you are comparing a drake to a harb.... the problem ship arises again.... it's proof positive that the problem is 2 ships, not the weapon system. If you try making the same comparison with a cerb and a zealot, or a caracal and an omen, you fall flat both times.

Saying that the weapon system itself needs to be nerfed to **** so that you can go back and rebalance the ships a 2nd time after you tear it to pieces is just silly.... and it's only 2 ships.

How about instead, you tear those two ships apart, leave the rest balanced as is, and fix the problems on those 2 ships.... drake: resist/fittings and Tengu: ROF bonus and slot layouts.
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#5053 - 2012-10-21 23:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Standard and faction ammo has been severly nerfed (less damage, less range, bigger exp. radius) in hitting smaller stuff.


Why should heavy missiles hit frigs for full damage?

Oh, yeah... I'm so going to hit Dramiel with HPLs. Roll



One may note that you don't use T2 close range ammo on smaller stuff either unless you have a huginn buddy webbing it down for you


I know Conflag is really bad ammo against fast frigates like Dramiel.

I'm Down wrote:
Yeah, those turrets that can hit any class ship for ~ full damage when webs/painters are used... regardless of size... or when traversal is low....


I want to see:
- Rail Brutix doing 400+ dps at 70+ km
- Beam Harbinger doing 400 dps at 100 km

Nevermind... Those don't exist.

Oh, and you probably want to watch this. A lot of info about how turrets work in game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JvfhVXbMgc8


I want to see a HML drake do damage instantaneously.... I want to see it not lose damage to speed at those ranges, I want to see it do nearly 600 dps in close..... see how it works. Maybe you should question the 110km range points and webs in game that make those missiles more effective first before blaming the missiles for their very delayed effect... or blame your logistics and primaried pilots for not using the 10 + seconds of warning to get a broadcast off.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5054 - 2012-10-22 00:34:08 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
My god, why do Draek theads always end up as fitting advice to uncreative Drake pilots? What?Lol


this^^
lol, had one near the middle of this thread who was completely ignorant of cookie cutter HAM drakes.

also did someone say HAMs dnt apply decent damage to their own size? cause they REALLY do.

Noemi Nagano wrote:


That reason you give here is the one you see with your perception. There might be another reason for this too, that is .. if the Cane wont work so good anymore, there will be plenty of other winmatar projectile ships left, which *do* work :) so not so much reason to be upset. But all this has been said before. If you dont want to see the light you wont see it. :)


i am one of those 'winmatar' pilots that uses an armour cane (the worst off from the nerf) for most my high sec warfare. i have been looking at other ships, but i've also been messing around with cane fittings.

i have plenty to test once the changes go onto the test server, and then 'live' tests when they are on tranq'. This is what u might call adapting and evolving to the changes in the game.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5055 - 2012-10-22 05:17:31 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
I want to see a HML drake do damage instantaneously....


Could you show us where they use missiles for sniping in real world?
Where missiles deal instant damage in real world?

I'm Down wrote:
I want to see it do nearly 600 dps in close.....


Use HAMs.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#5056 - 2012-10-22 05:33:21 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
I want to see a HML drake do damage instantaneously....


Could you show us where they use missiles for sniping in real world?
Where missiles deal instant damage in real world?

I'm Down wrote:
I want to see it do nearly 600 dps in close, but still have 100km range


Use HAMs.

Dude, read the whole quote Blink

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5057 - 2012-10-22 05:37:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
I want to see a HML drake do damage instantaneously....


Could you show us where they use missiles for sniping in real world?
Where missiles deal instant damage in real world?

I'm Down wrote:
I want to see it do nearly 600 dps in close.....


Use HAMs.

Dude, read the whole quote Blink


I did. She wants missiles with instant damage. She also wants HMLs to deal 600 dps (like 400 at 120 km isn't enough...). She wants to snipe with missiles (just like they do somewhere in real world Big smile).
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5058 - 2012-10-22 06:40:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
I want to see a HML drake do damage instantaneously....


Could you show us where they use missiles for sniping in real world?
Where missiles deal instant damage in real world?

I'm Down wrote:
I want to see it do nearly 600 dps in close.....


Use HAMs.

Dude, read the whole quote Blink


I did. She wants missiles with instant damage. She also wants HMLs to deal 600 dps (like 400 at 120 km isn't enough...). She wants to snipe with missiles (just like they do somewhere in real world Big smile).


Thats a good example of how Jorma (but also this gallentean missile expert) twist reality. They pick parts of postings and dont get the context. Numerous times I have been blamed for comparing short range turrets with HML when those guys were just not able to read what I compared .. funny thing no one comes with EFT numbers anymore since I showed how *very* wrong they all were with those DPS calculations before.

About that range window where HML are better than turrets - really no one (including me!) said its fair this window is so big. Having 35-40km of pure win is not fair for other races. Then again, from close to 35 its not bad for the others. And the others have better working close range options. Lets look at this again:

pro Caldari/ missile PvP:

p1- HML/Drake shines from 35 to locking range, assuming a dedicated sniper fitting this can be very long and will still be long after patch

p2- Drake has nice resists which works very well with Logis

p3- Drake is cheap and will do better and better with larger numbers

p4- the damage applies exactly the same every time under the exact same conditions

p5- tracking cant be underflown like with turrets

contra Caldari/ missile PvP

c1- there is no Caldari medium or large sized combat vessel which shines below 35 in comparison to its peers or overall

c2- there is only one viable tech 1 hull which can get used in combat in medium and large size, and 1 t3

c3- the damage comes in delayed

c4- the damage can be killed in space

c5- the damage will be reduced by speed & sig size, and can be reduced to zero

Right now in med/large hulls Caldari missile PvP has this one option, HML on Drake (and Tengu, for the rich). I think its not good that there are no other useful options. But to kill this one option before there is some other is just another big Caldari nerf. Nothing less.

After this patch there will be a change in p1- The window will be much smaller for non-rigged ships. Rigged ships will maybe have other issues, when they now have to be closer. The damage overall will also get reduced, esp. with Fury having a very short range and really bad application after the patch.

Maybe there will be a change in c1 - some here say the HAM Drake will shine then. I have yet to see that. Others (mainly one, and a gallentean missile expert he is) says the Torp Raven will be back. I am not sure if I need to comment this.

All other aspects will remain more or less the same. Some softstats are buffed (application of a skill), others are nerfed.

So, how will this new Eve be more balanced than before? I cant see more balance if Caldari lose their only tech 1 combat missile hull above frig size. It has been pointed out before how missile users are more stuck with missiles than turret users - their support skills dont work for turrets. It has been all said again and again. If one wants to understand the concerns he should actually be well able to do so.

If one wants to stick with his race and not use missiles, and furthermore not open his mind to thoughts he could never have had with no idea of those ships and weapons, then he may not get the point though.

Best regards.


PS:

Again, if I were a dev I would do something completely different:

- change Fury to short range is ok. Nerfing its softstats is not. Reducing its damage also is just ridiculous.

- change t1/faction range to medium is ok. Nerfing the damage is not needed IMO.

- introduce t2 long range with lower DPS to match the DPS of turret ships on sniping ranges at around ~70km for example. Or make it 75/80km, whatever feels best for balance. Before that mark turrets would have the edge, after that mark the missiles would be a bit better (til they run out). Flight time should be short, and velocity should be very high, so sniping actually makes sense.

Feel free to comment on that one, feel free to tell me what are your concerns with this idea.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#5059 - 2012-10-22 06:57:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
My god, why do Draek theads always end up as fitting advice to uncreative Drake pilots? What?Lol


this^^
lol, had one near the middle of this thread who was completely ignorant of cookie cutter HAM drakes.

also did someone say HAMs dnt apply decent damage to their own size? cause they REALLY do.


I saw one fitting here which surprised me a little bit - that was the dedicated sniper fitting. I was indeed not aware of how far the range could be stretched with rigs. Maybe there should be a change to that when TE/TC come to the game. Then again, really long ranges are nothing one normally wants anyway ... 150km is bad ;)

All other fittings were nothing new to me, although none of them was really good. I think there are better options for "real" Eve PvP. But for sure wont post them as long as there is no need :)
Opertone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5060 - 2012-10-22 08:27:18 UTC
I don't like when Caldari get their Nerf...

i am Caldari :/


On a side note - RAGE torpedoes require 2-3 target painters on a golem to make the most out of them. They help compensate for the extremely low explosion velocity of all torps. Even a Hulk can speed tank them :P

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again