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HUD changes Feedback Thread (for Duality test server)

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Morgan North
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#21 - 2012-10-21 07:30:16 UTC
Plus:

The information available at the modules is awesome.
The HUD looks good. I'm not that fond of having repeated information on EVE, but at least this enables you to check his HP while your trying to see him move around.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#22 - 2012-10-21 11:14:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
The new HUD and targeting row is awesome, with one exception: the starting point, as pointed out in the dev blog thread. It would really be better if you made the whole thing a bit more consistent with how your own ship's damage track works: starting in the (lower) right corner and ending in the (lower) left (see ye olde mock-up from that thread).

Even if you don't change the starting point, the gap would still be a welcome addition. Yes, you learn where it starts and end; no, it's still missing the “feel” of intuitiveness.

Oh, and: the whole hit notification animation was a bit more subtle than I expected, but that could be due to only having small:ish groups of NPCs to test against… but right now I'm inclined to suggesting that maybe they should be made a bit more prominent. A bit more testing will be needed there, and so far it seems like a nice effect, albeit less “meaty” than I imagined it would be.
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#23 - 2012-10-21 11:25:31 UTC
Blue Harrier wrote:
Please have a look at my comments in the ‘Duality Open period’ thread, especially my remarks on colour blind usage.

Thanks.
For reference, here is a link to it.

Quote:
3, As I am red/green colour blind the faded colour (I assume red), of the target reticule is very hard for me to see, it might be useful to have a colour blind mode with a change of colour for people like myself. After all we don’t always need red as a warning colour as long as we (as in myself) know this is the warning.
My son who was watching the test also pointed out there was a colour change from I think yellow or green to red but again this was not apparent to me (could someone confirm this please).
Are you talking about when they are targeting you and then aggressing? (Targeting is yellow, agressing is red, but there is no green).
Or are you talking about when they hit you? Then you have red, orange or yellow, depending on the damage of the hit. We will be trying out new graphics for that, so read has one, orange one and yellow one.

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur
Blue Harrier
#24 - 2012-10-21 12:12:45 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:

Quote:
3, As I am red/green colour blind the faded colour (I assume red), of the target reticule is very hard for me to see, it might be useful to have a colour blind mode with a change of colour for people like myself. After all we don’t always need red as a warning colour as long as we (as in myself) know this is the warning.
My son who was watching the test also pointed out there was a colour change from I think yellow or green to red but again this was not apparent to me (could someone confirm this please).
Are you talking about when they are targeting you and then aggressing? (Targeting is yellow, agressing is red, but there is no green).
Or are you talking about when they hit you? Then you have red, orange or yellow, depending on the damage of the hit. We will be trying out new graphics for that, so read has one, orange one and yellow one.

Thank you so much for responding to my request;

It applies to both situations; the worst offender is the red, orange, yellow combinations. To give you an idea traffic lights to me (in the UK) read top to bottom, red (very dim in daylight), yellow and white, this should be red, amber and green.

Most colour blind people can see primary colours reasonably well but mixed or secondary colours really start to screw with our vision. Adding a ‘glow’ to the red colour helps as it makes it stand out more.

I will now swear (people of a nervous or easily offended stop reading here), I play WOW and they have a simple tick box in the many settings that turns on ‘Color Blind Mode’, and it works. Also many years ago I played a game called ‘Alpha Centauri’ and Sid Meirs brought out a set of special tiles for colour impaired people like myself which made the game superbly playable.

For all you colour perfect people out there I envy you and wish I had bookmarked a web site that listed sets of pictures next to each other one in natural colour and one as seen by colour blind people, to me they looked the same but my son was flabbergasted at the huge difference between the two for him.

I don’t expect preferential treatment but any small ‘improvement’ will be appreciated.

"You wait - time passes, Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold." from The Hobbit on ZX Spectrum 1982.
Solhild
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-10-21 12:52:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:
The new HUD and targeting row is awesome, with one exception: the starting point, as pointed out in the dev blog thread. It would really be better if you made the whole thing a bit more consistent with how your own ship's damage track works: starting in the (lower) right corner and ending in the (lower) left (see ye olde mock-up from that thread).

Even if you don't change the starting point, the gap would still be a welcome addition. Yes, you learn where it starts and end; no, it's still missing the “feel” of intuitiveness.

Oh, and: the whole hit notification animation was a bit more subtle than I expected, but that could be due to only having small:ish groups of NPCs to test against… but right now I'm inclined to suggesting that maybe they should be made a bit more prominent. A bit more testing will be needed there, and so far it seems like a nice effect, albeit less “meaty” than I imagined it would be.


That mockup is great. Our own HUD could do with looking like a bigger version of this. Great stuff.
Oberine Noriepa
#26 - 2012-10-21 15:20:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Oberine Noriepa
Solhild wrote:
Tippia wrote:
The new HUD and targeting row is awesome, with one exception: the starting point, as pointed out in the dev blog thread. It would really be better if you made the whole thing a bit more consistent with how your own ship's damage track works: starting in the (lower) right corner and ending in the (lower) left (see ye olde mock-up from that thread).

Even if you don't change the starting point, the gap would still be a welcome addition. Yes, you learn where it starts and end; no, it's still missing the “feel” of intuitiveness.

Oh, and: the whole hit notification animation was a bit more subtle than I expected, but that could be due to only having small:ish groups of NPCs to test against… but right now I'm inclined to suggesting that maybe they should be made a bit more prominent. A bit more testing will be needed there, and so far it seems like a nice effect, albeit less “meaty” than I imagined it would be.


That mockup is great. Our own HUD could do with looking like a bigger version of this. Great stuff.

Agreed. It's very good. Not only is it simple and easy to read, but it immediately displays a good amount of information for adequate situational awareness.

CCP karkur: Once the mechanics of the new HUD are finalized, please don't forget to make it look cool and futuristic. Of course, functionality should never be sacrificed for form, but still... don't forget about the concepts that were shown at Fanfest. (Link) P

∃
dischordia
wiggle Tech.
#27 - 2012-10-21 19:30:57 UTC
I have noticed that when hovering over the icons the web shows reduces target ship's velocity by 90 ... and not 90% as i guess it should show also the armor hardeners show a -% of damage resistance and i would guess that should show a +%damage resistance is also the same with the shield hardeners too

What we're actually doing is removing both hisec and PvP from the game entirely. It seems like the fairest way to solve this problem. - CCP Grayscale  - CCP troll BEST troll <3
CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
#28 - 2012-10-22 08:04:13 UTC
Ok ok.. I now get which one is Shield. But that doesn't tell me which is armour and which is the other thing which I keep forgetting what is called but I know is bad because when it goes blood coloured my brain takes me to my bad place?

CCP Prism X

Programmer on Team Gridlock & Expert Ranter
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#29 - 2012-10-22 08:59:34 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
Ok ok.. I now get which one is Shield. But that doesn't tell me which is armour and which is the other thing which I keep forgetting what is called but I know is bad because when it goes blood coloured my brain takes me to my bad place?

ohyou.jpg

I know you love it. Admit it bro. DOOO EEEET!

srsly tho. It is super nice

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#30 - 2012-10-22 09:02:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannott Thanos
Spc One wrote:
This new HUD is not really necessary.
There is NOTHING wrong with current HUD, it's perfect as it is right now on TQ so please don't change it to circles.

*in your opinion*

I think you will find a lot of people who does not agree with you

Edit: Also, ITT: people who have not tried the new GUI wonders what is what

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#31 - 2012-10-22 09:40:04 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
Ok ok.. I now get which one is Shield. But that doesn't tell me which is armour and which is the other thing which I keep forgetting what is called but I know is bad because when it goes blood coloured my brain takes me to my bad place?

There, there. I'm sure that one day, when the stars align and there is peace on earth, those CCP guys will understand that intuitive is better than trial-and-error and that an obvious UI is better than one you have to learn.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#32 - 2012-10-22 09:59:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:
CCP Prism X wrote:
Ok ok.. I now get which one is Shield. But that doesn't tell me which is armour and which is the other thing which I keep forgetting what is called but I know is bad because when it goes blood coloured my brain takes me to my bad place?

There, there. I'm sure that one day, when the stars align and there is peace on earth, those CCP guys will understand that intuitive is better than trial-and-error and that an obvious UI is better than one you have to learn.

Do you think the Iphone GUI is intuitive? I don't, I think the Android GUI is better. Many will agree, many will disagree. I find this HUD intuitive. Then again, Android users are generally more tech aware and more intelligent [citation needed] so maybe that's the reason?Blink

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#33 - 2012-10-22 10:21:39 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Do you think the Iphone GUI is intuitive? I don't, I think the Android GUI is better. Many will agree, many will disagree.
…and both sides are nuts since they're the same aside from — occasionally — how the settings page(s) are organised.

Quote:
I find this HUD intuitive.
Good for you. If you want to settle for merely not inherently informative when it could be inherently informative at no extra cost, then that's nice and all. It still doesn't make it a particularly good decision.

By the way “it's better because you have to be smarter and more tech-savvy to understand it” means it's worse and less intuitive… otherwise you wouldn't have to be smarter and more tech-savvy to understand it, now would you. So I'll put you down in the “Android is worse” column, then, shall I.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#34 - 2012-10-22 10:34:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Do you think the Iphone GUI is intuitive? I don't, I think the Android GUI is better. Many will agree, many will disagree.
…and both sides are nuts since they're the same aside from — occasionally — how the settings page(s) are organised.

Quote:
I find this HUD intuitive.
Good for you. If you want to settle for merely not inherently informative when it could be inherently informative at no extra cost, then that's nice and all. It still doesn't make it a particularly good decision.

By the way “it's better because you have to be smarter and more tech-savvy to understand it” means it's worse and less intuitive… otherwise you wouldn't have to be smarter and more tech-savvy to understand it, now would you. So I'll put you down in the “Android is worse” column, then, shall I.

I get your point, I really do. I also think that if you are playing EvE, this will be the least difficult thing to figure out by far. The circular stuff is neater and takes up less space than the blocks we use now, looks more up to date and sci-fi (again, in my opinion) and after the first shot, you get how it works right away.

How would you make it so you understood it by looking at it for 2 seconds on a screenshot? I think it *might* be easier to understand at a glance as it is on TQ now, but I also think that the bars are too short, so in close fights in small ships,where every little HP counts, the longer circular bars are better

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
#35 - 2012-10-22 10:39:37 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
I get your point, I really do. I also think that if you are playing EvE, this will be the least difficult thing to figure out by far. The circular stuff is neater and takes up less space than the blocks we use now, looks more up to date and sci-fi (again, in my opinion) and after the first shot, you get how it works right away.

How would you make it so you understood it by looking at it for 2 seconds on a screenshot? I think it *might* be easier to understand at a glance as it is on TQ now, but I also think that the bars are too short, so in close fights in small ships,where every little HP counts, the longer circular bars are better


Are you Bob?

CCP Prism X

Programmer on Team Gridlock & Expert Ranter
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#36 - 2012-10-22 10:44:51 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
I get your point, I really do. I also think that if you are playing EvE, this will be the least difficult thing to figure out by far. The circular stuff is neater and takes up less space than the blocks we use now, looks more up to date and sci-fi (again, in my opinion) and after the first shot, you get how it works right away.

How would you make it so you understood it by looking at it for 2 seconds on a screenshot? I think it *might* be easier to understand at a glance as it is on TQ now, but I also think that the bars are too short, so in close fights in small ships,where every little HP counts, the longer circular bars are better


Are you Bob?

Aren't we all a little bit Bob? No, I'm Åsmund actually. Norway reporting in Smile

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#37 - 2012-10-22 10:50:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Hannott Thanos wrote:
I get your point, I really do. I also think that if you are playing EvE, this will be the least difficult thing to figure out by far. The circular stuff is neater and takes up less space than the blocks we use now, looks more up to date and sci-fi (again, in my opinion) and after the first shot, you get how it works right away.
Oh I agree. I just think it's a bit silly, if they're going to do this kind of update, to stop half-way and just shrug off further and seemingly simple improvement with a lazy “they'll learn” argument.

Granted, Prism X is just trolling, so we don't really know if they are stopping there, but still: if they're not going further, I'd really like to hear a better argument than that.

Quote:
How would you make it so you understood it by looking at it for 2 seconds on a screenshot? I think it *might* be easier to understand at a glance as it is on TQ now, but I also think that the bars are too short, so in close fights in small ships,where every little HP counts, the longer circular bars are better
There are things you can do that are already in our visual “vocabulary” that could be employed. I tried to include some in the mock-up I did, such as having a slight arrow-shape to the segments, making the thing obviously discontinuous, and mimicking a different HP gauge that is already on-screen. There's also the use of colour, which admittedly has its limitations in terms of accessibility and in terms of only really having a limited palette at its disposal (I tried with blue, going to yellow, rather than the classic green to red since red was reserved for the actual damage, then made them pale to contrast against the saturated colour of the damaged parts… but I won't argue that it was all that successful an attempt).

Right now, it employs the visual language of the various timers that are (finally!) being placed here and there… but it's not a timer, so I'm not sure that's the right thing to strive for. It's not counting down from 12 o'clock to 0 — it's counting down HP from full to empty, and does it upside-down compared to the other HP counter.
CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
#38 - 2012-10-22 11:05:34 UTC
Haven't been paying attention to the newest developments as I'm being a bad team member and doing my own things because they need doing.

But I trust Karkur implicitly because she's awesome at what she does and has already made many great improvements for the game already which should count for some trust. Obviously I wont be promising any work on her behalf, and you don´t want me doing any of this work because of see below. I'm also certain that whatever she does will annoy me, to some degree, as it wont be the st00pid UI I've grown used to over the years. But I recognize that sometimes you just have to take your idiot baby out behind the shed and put it out of its misery so you can replace it with Baby 2.0.

There´s not much more I can contribute here as I'm not really an authority on User Interfaces. For example, I don´t see any problem with this UI. Seems very functional and explicit to me.

CCP Prism X

Programmer on Team Gridlock & Expert Ranter
Heimdallofasgard
Ministry of Furious Retribution
Fraternity.
#39 - 2012-10-22 11:06:19 UTC
Always a big fan of GUI updates and this is no dissapointment.

I've always felt that the overview and blocky windows looked out of place against the capacitor and main HUD.

blocky windows are fine for channels and stations but when I'm flying I want it to feel more organic and this is definitely a step in the right direction!
T1nyMan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2012-10-22 11:20:29 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
Haven't been paying attention to the newest developments as I'm being a bad team member and doing my own things because they need doing.

But I trust Karkur implicitly because she's awesome at what she does and has already made many great improvements for the game already which should count for some trust. Obviously I wont be promising any work on her behalf, and you don´t want me doing any of this work because of see below. I'm also certain that whatever she does will annoy me, to some degree, as it wont be the st00pid UI I've grown used to over the years. But I recognize that sometimes you just have to take your idiot baby out behind the shed and put it out of its misery so you can replace it with Baby 2.0.

There´s not much more I can contribute here as I'm not really an authority on User Interfaces. For example, I don´t see any problem with this UI. Seems very functional and explicit to me.


Eve could learn a lot from that UI, what we need is more grabbing and robots