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Okay CCP, it's time. Acknowledge the legitimacy of The New Order, James 315, and bumping.

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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#121 - 2012-10-20 17:07:30 UTC
Burrobot wrote:
Roime wrote:
Hisec players top 3 10/2012

1. Chribba
2. James 315
3. Solstice Project

Why only these three create things, innovate and generally stand out from the faceless mass?



I've never heard of you before Roime

Ah, sorry, I forgot to switch characters back to this one from my alt. Sorry for the unintentional irony there.

So, who are you, Roime?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Vanyr Andrard
VacuumTube
#122 - 2012-10-20 17:08:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Vanyr Andrard
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Dear narrow minded morons,
In a sandbox I can do whatever the **** I want to you as long as I'm not exploiting bugs or hacking. THAT is just one of the reasons it's a sandbox.


So if CCP declares bumping ice miners to be an exploit tomorrow morning, you'd be fine with that?

edit:

This is really a two part question. The first part is that people will often say "if it's in teh rules, it's fine, because it's a sandbox. But then in some other occasion, they'll say "oh, the rules need to be changed, this is bad for the game". This makes their earlier argument seem hypocritical, as they switch back and forth between these two contradictory positions depending on whether the current official interpretation of the rules supports their position or not. I'm not specifically accusing you of that, but it's pretty common in this issue and you're kinda implying it by seeming to accept the latter type of arguments made elsewhere in this thread.


The second point is that since James started the moralistic discussion overlaid on the "allowed or not" sandbox basics, and then these people are responding to him in kind, it's somewhat backwards for you to take issue with these respondents for arguing moralistically rather than on the basis of legality. Since he initiated moving the debate to that ground, it would be much more appropriate for you all to direct those kinds of criticism to him. Not that there's much hope of reaching any progress on this debate, as certain parties obviously have secondary motives and will never listen, but when arguments are made to the incorrect parties like this it just makes the threads even longer and more circular.
Aramatheia
Tiffany and Co.
#123 - 2012-10-20 18:27:16 UTC
solution to bumping inbalances

realistic collision modeling

halo does it, why cant eve online, its not that hard. Small vehicle hits tank, small vehicle explodes/dies, heck flight simulators going back into the 90's have had some form of collision modeling even!

Small ship (mwd destroyer) hits big ship (hulk). Small ship explodes/dies. It makes too much sense

I'd be A-okay with someone working this to build a super speed mach and ramming ships with it. They would need to accept they'd get blasted into half armor each time though and that may not be enough to kill say, a well tanked exhumer of the largest size (hulk)

Rubber ships has to go. Also base collision damages according to ship class/size not specifics like mass/weight and whatnot while that could be fun it could be too complicated. I think just basic size vs size collision modeling is the way to go
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2012-10-20 18:28:26 UTC
Aramatheia wrote:
solution to bumping inbalances

realistic collision modeling

halo does it, why cant eve online, its not that hard. Small vehicle hits tank, small vehicle explodes/dies, heck flight simulators going back into the 90's have had some form of collision modeling even!

Small ship (mwd destroyer) hits big ship (hulk). Small ship explodes/dies. It makes too much sense

I'd be A-okay with someone working this to build a super speed mach and ramming ships with it. They would need to accept they'd get blasted into half armor each time though and that may not be enough to kill say, a well tanked exhumer of the largest size (hulk)

Rubber ships has to go. Also base collision damages according to ship class/size not specifics like mass/weight and whatnot while that could be fun it could be too complicated. I think just basic size vs size collision modeling is the way to go


they already did that, it didn't work out

Also Jita undock Big smile

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Weiland Taur
The Icarus Expedition
Solyaris Chtonium
#125 - 2012-10-20 18:35:26 UTC

James315 for Roleplayer of the Year!

Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#126 - 2012-10-20 18:44:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Vanyr Andrard wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Dear narrow minded morons,
In a sandbox I can do whatever the **** I want to you as long as I'm not exploiting bugs or hacking. THAT is just one of the reasons it's a sandbox.


So if CCP declares bumping ice miners to be an exploit tomorrow morning, you'd be fine with that?

edit:

This is really a two part question. The first part is that people will often say "if it's in teh rules, it's fine, because it's a sandbox. But then in some other occasion, they'll say "oh, the rules need to be changed, this is bad for the game". This makes their earlier argument seem hypocritical, as they switch back and forth between these two contradictory positions depending on whether the current official interpretation of the rules supports their position or not. I'm not specifically accusing you of that, but it's pretty common in this issue and you're kinda implying it by seeming to accept the latter type of arguments made elsewhere in this thread.


The second point is that since James started the moralistic discussion overlaid on the "allowed or not" sandbox basics, and then these people are responding to him in kind, it's somewhat backwards for you to take issue with these respondents for arguing moralistically rather than on the basis of legality. Since he initiated moving the debate to that ground, it would be much more appropriate for you all to direct those kinds of criticism to him. Not that there's much hope of reaching any progress on this debate, as certain parties obviously have secondary motives and will never listen, but when arguments are made to the incorrect parties like this it just makes the threads even longer and more circular.

No I wouldn't, because it's not a ******* exploit!

WTF?
What we have here is a case of:

CCP, black space is wrong.

CCP says no it's not.

You go, but it is and it needs to be fixed.


Seriously, the **** is wrong with some of you? If bumping wasn't allowed, CCP would have done something when you guys reported it, but instead they said "WE LIKE IT!!!!"

Why do some of you not get this? When they tell you that they support emergent gameplay like this, they're telling to **** off; it's allowed.

Stop ignoring what you're being told, accept it, and start orbiting the ******* asteroids instead of being complete morons about it.

PS: It's not bad for the game, because it's a sandbox. Get over it.
Weiland Taur
The Icarus Expedition
Solyaris Chtonium
#127 - 2012-10-20 18:50:47 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Robert De'Arneth wrote:
Kaz Ironhand wrote:
Who is James 351?


James315 is multi alt poster who makes threads like this to bring attention to himself, he is a good scammer for sure, last count I think he has take people for like 13 billion. and people like Jonah above love him. He thinks his mision in life is to save eve online.

James 315 is a player who took a mundane mechanic, a bunch of AFK miners, and the fact Eve encourages innovative and emergent gameplay, and built himself a new extortionist playstyle and a following*. He has wrapped it in a semi-RP "savior of hisec" mantra, which many people can't see for what it is (just enjoying the damn game) and instead label him as megalomaniacal, insane, or other things. If you want to see anger, mention him on the forums.

*If you believe naysayers, the "following" is just James' infinite alts. OP and I happen to be a couple examples. I think The Mittani is also one.


How is this emergent gameplay? James315 (though fun for a forum read) is simply being loud about one of the oldest tricks in the book. I must be getting old. Seems everything is emergent gameplay nowdays. "Look, we ganked some freighters," - emergent gameplay, "We'll we bumped some miners and took their stuff," - emergent gameplay, "We held up some ships for ISK," emergent gameplay... All old, all tried and true, all the same old Eve player eat player paradigm. One of my first experiences in Eve was wandering into losec in my star destroying kick ass doom vexor and promptly getting mugged. Set up a corporation and got mugged by some pirates with a fleet who found my POS. Went mining, got bumped and bumped and bumped until I paid or went elsewhere. All old, all tired. The only difference is either the numbers doing it at the same time and the amount of "roleplaying," noise being generated by them on forums.

Some people make nice theatre, the Mittani is one of them. Miniluv is so wonderfully fanboyishly unoriginal it's awesome. Some people just make a lot of noise.

Aramatheia
Tiffany and Co.
#128 - 2012-10-20 18:52:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Aramatheia
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
Aramatheia wrote:
solution to bumping inbalances

realistic collision modeling

halo does it, why cant eve online, its not that hard. Small vehicle hits tank, small vehicle explodes/dies, heck flight simulators going back into the 90's have had some form of collision modeling even!

Small ship (mwd destroyer) hits big ship (hulk). Small ship explodes/dies. It makes too much sense

I'd be A-okay with someone working this to build a super speed mach and ramming ships with it. They would need to accept they'd get blasted into half armor each time though and that may not be enough to kill say, a well tanked exhumer of the largest size (hulk)

Rubber ships has to go. Also base collision damages according to ship class/size not specifics like mass/weight and whatnot while that could be fun it could be too complicated. I think just basic size vs size collision modeling is the way to go


they already did that, it didn't work out

Also Jita undock Big smile


what exactly went wrong with the prior attempts of collision modeling? is it because of the fact that players have limited control of thier ships pathing? ie they can double click, approach or orbit only. And such restrictions made ship contact inevitable increasingly scaled up as fleet size increases? I could accept that as a reason as to why collision modeling may be a bit iffy. I know that adding a collision mesh to an object is far from difficult (it does mean having the visible model object with an invisible collider object inside it) but it can increase system requirements i guess (the more accurate the collision mesh the more polygons flying in space, even if not visible?)

maybe they could add collision models only to flightpaths of the approach/keep at range vectors. Such a rubber ship rammer playstyle could still exist but it would require double clicking in space. Which is harder than just *approach, turn on mwd* so it might become an art form. Would make mtac roles in incursions trickier as well, and civilian dropping

is it sad that i had a chuckle at the thought of me mwding into the mtac factory at 2100ms and exploding instantly? lol
Weiland Taur
The Icarus Expedition
Solyaris Chtonium
#129 - 2012-10-20 18:56:12 UTC
Aramatheia wrote:
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
[quote=Aramatheia]solution to bumping inbalances

realistic collision modeling

halo does it, why cant eve online, its not that hard. Small vehicle hits tank, small vehicle explodes/dies, heck flight simulators going back into the 90's have had some form of collision modeling even!

Small ship (mwd destroyer) hits big ship (hulk). Small ship explodes/dies. It makes too much sense

I'd be A-okay with someone working this to build a super speed mach and ramming ships with it. They would need to accept they'd get blasted into half armor each time though and that may not be enough to kill say, a well tanked exhumer of the largest size (hulk)

Rubber ships has to go. Also base collision damages according to ship class/size not specifics like mass/weight and whatnot while that could be fun it could be too complicated. I think just basic size vs size collision modeling is the way to go


they already did that, it didn't work out

Also Jita undock Big smile


The entire collision system is so moronic, stupid, immersion breaking and unjustifiable that you have to assume fixing it means some fundamental change to the code that CCP just can't wrap their heads around.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#130 - 2012-10-20 19:02:58 UTC
How to improve eve:

Do not try to discuss in dev blogs

Find out what doesn't work properly because of stupid/silly/broken/not existing mechanics, exploit each and every one of them with your alts and as many brainless cheeps you can find (easy in eve).

->patch

-> win

brb
Vanyr Andrard
VacuumTube
#131 - 2012-10-20 19:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Vanyr Andrard
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Seriously, the **** is wrong with some of you? If bumping wasn't allowed, CCP would have done something when you guys reported it, but instead they said "WE LIKE IT!!!!"


And they've NEVER allowed something for years, and then after circumstances changed, changed their policy on it? Aren't you hoping CCP changes their policy on highsec industry being better than nullsec industry? (p.s., if you're 110% certain that CCP will NEVER change their policy on bumping, then surely you'd be willing to accept a bit with me at 10,000 to 1 odds, held by chribba, on this matter? :) ) No?

Quote:

Stop ignoring what you're being told, accept it, and start orbiting the ******* asteroids instead of being complete morons about it.


Orbiting the asteroid is a common and not-very-useful tactic.

Quote:
You go, but it is and it needs to be fixed.


Seriously, the **** is wrong with some of you? If bumping wasn't allowed, CCP would have done something when you guys reported it, but instead they said "WE LIKE IT!!!!"


I never said that, and I never reported it. You must have me confused with someone else.


Quote:
PS: It's not bad for the game, because it's a sandbox. Get over it.


I'm pretty much in agreement with every change you propose to high and null-sec industry in the other thread. How would you feel if a bunch of highseccers came to that thread and said "Industry being better in high-sec isn't bad for the game, because it's a sandbox. Get over it."? It's a pretty ridiculous argument, man, it works for anything, just plug it in. Collision in EVE is unrealistic and bad. EVE being a sandbox doesn't change that fact.
MinefieldS
1 Sick Duck Standss on something
#132 - 2012-10-20 19:06:42 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
I predict 2-3 years down the road when CCP implements a collision damage model, hordes of New Order faithful will flock to the forums and whine that their important emergent method of gameplay has been unfairly nerfed.


Actually I just thought bumping this thread seemed entirely appropriate.


Sounds great. I will bump every miner to death in a damnation without CONCORD intervention.
Nanatoa
#133 - 2012-10-20 19:11:50 UTC
James 315 is a Hero!

"Stay the course, we have done this many times before." - (CCP) Hilmar, June 2011
Helena Russell Makanen
DRRUSSEL
#134 - 2012-10-20 19:14:56 UTC
Galaxy Pig wrote:
blah blah James Alt babble blah blah *snip*


James... err I mean 'Galaxy Pig' Blink you forgot to ask CCP to legitimize James' perverted need to control miner's urination habits?

Bad alt BAD! Keep your eye on the prize!

"If a miner needs to go to the bathroom, for instance, I ask that they dock up first, or at the very least ask the Supreme Protector for permission to go."  -  James 315 - aka - the miner bumper

Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#135 - 2012-10-20 19:17:32 UTC
Helena Russell Makanen wrote:
Galaxy Pig wrote:
blah blah James Alt babble blah blah *snip*


James... err I mean 'Galaxy Pig' Blink you forgot to ask CCP to legitimize James' perverted need to control miner's urination habits?

Bad alt BAD! Keep your eye on the prize!


The funny part is how many idiots pay him so he stops bulling them, this is just hilarious, really really hilarious.

brb
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#136 - 2012-10-20 19:24:02 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#137 - 2012-10-20 19:39:51 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2fwHjLvvk4

new highsec theme song



Nah, this one is better !!

brb
Dalketh
DRRUSSEL
#138 - 2012-10-20 19:43:14 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Helena Russell Makanen wrote:
Galaxy Pig wrote:
blah blah James Alt babble blah blah *snip*


James... err I mean 'Galaxy Pig' Blink you forgot to ask CCP to legitimize James' perverted need to control miner's urination habits?

Bad alt BAD! Keep your eye on the prize!


The funny part is how many idiots pay him so he stops bulling them, this is just hilarious, really really hilarious.


You have access to his wallet do ya? Another James alt?

Actually what is even funnier is an idiot who would believe the claims of a character known mainly for making outlandish foolish claims lol? Roll
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#139 - 2012-10-20 19:44:42 UTC
Dalketh wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Helena Russell Makanen wrote:
Galaxy Pig wrote:
blah blah James Alt babble blah blah *snip*


James... err I mean 'Galaxy Pig' Blink you forgot to ask CCP to legitimize James' perverted need to control miner's urination habits?

Bad alt BAD! Keep your eye on the prize!


The funny part is how many idiots pay him so he stops bulling them, this is just hilarious, really really hilarious.


You have access to his wallet do ya? Another James alt?

Actually what is even funnier is an idiot who would believe the claims of a character known mainly for making outlandish foolish claims lol? Roll



You need some more, take it all !!

brb
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#140 - 2012-10-20 19:54:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Roime wrote:
Hisec players top 3 10/2012

1. Chribba
2. James 315
3. Solstice Project

Why only these three create things, innovate and generally stand out from the faceless mass?

Why thank you ! :D

Wait ... who are you and why am i only third ? :/

Aramatheia wrote:
solution to bumping inbalances

realistic collision modeling

halo does it
You know ... there are always people coming up with clever ideas
about things they have no actual understanding off ... and yours is one of them.

Anyway ... to understand the actual issue with your idea,
simply dock at Jita 4-4, undock, hit the brakes, zoom in and WATCH !

Weiland Taur wrote:
How is this emergent gameplay?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence ...
... is the way complex systems and patterns arise out of a multiplicity of relatively simple interactions.
Emergence is central to the theories of integrative levels and of complex systems.

Your cases of being kicked into your candy ass by others is one way to look at it.
You build something and they **** it up. That's emergent. It creates a set of new things that can/will happen,
compared to what would have been if they didn't. If you just suck it up and don't seek revenge,
then you "missed" (loser) the chance to create actual emergent gameplay yourself.

Another way to understand is to look at what most people do. If you can see beyond your existence as a lemming,
you can realize that most people actually do the same things (groups of actions).
We can talk about emergent gameplay in regards to james,
because he does something different.

Of course, bumping in itself isn't different at all, but the simple action of bumping a miner,
combined with the other simple action of blackmailing them,
creates a huge set of new possibilities for everybody involved ...

... including all those lemmings hating him for being different.


Of course, one could argue that everybody creates emergent gameplay in one way or the other,
but that's not "actually" what's happening. Assuming that lemmings are needed to keep a society intact ...
... (easily observable) ...
... then one could say that they don't create emergent "gameplay" ...

... but everything just "works as intended", with a rather small set of (new) possibilities in the near future.

(Edit/Add: I'll pick a random example. You probably do not realize this, but the number of people dieing)
(every year by car accidents (per country/nation/collection of nations) usually balances around a specific)
(amount +/- "percentage relative", given the conditions are stable and don't change. (i.e. changes in traffic laws))
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year ... as example)


Examples of reallife people "living" "emergent gameplay": Wright-Brothers, Tesla, Da Vinci, Socrates, Galileo, etc.


Now i'm in no way saying that james is a genius what-so-ever, but not acknowledging the fact that he does
things that are *different* compared to what everybody else does ... well, that's typical for a lemming.


The name "The New Order" is kind of fitting, because he has "thought up" a way to have impact on the miners lives,
which will/maybe encourages others to do the same. Once/If a critical mass of people paying attention to it is reached,
it will spread like a wildfire and miners will start raging on the forums about it as if hell has broken loose in new eden.


I could go on and on and on about this, tbh.


Have a look at this, for example, and try some actual deeper thinking:
Quote:
John Galls Systemantics laws:
1. Everything is a system

2. No system exists in isolation. It is always part of a larger meta system
and contains an infinite number of subsystems.

3. All systems are infinitely complex.
The illusion of simplicity is achieved only by ignoring most of the factors.



The End.