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Dev blog: Stay on Target!

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Kayrl Bheskagor
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#801 - 2012-10-18 21:09:36 UTC
40 pages of comments. I wonder how many are not in favor of the round target UI? If I had no life, I'd grind through the posts.

So for the "devs", you know Eve had round target UI before, right? Maybe you posted it, but did you bother to check back and see WHY IT WAS CHANGED to the square we have now? I'm thinking this change is going to be rammed through, just because any change is good for job justification, i guess, like that useless inventory. So, aside from the fact that the old square target UI is clear, obvious and incredibly easy to understand and interpret, even for a completely new player, why are you going back to a design that was taken OUT of the game years ago?? For more fail, bugs and lag?
Kayrl Bheskagor
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#802 - 2012-10-18 21:24:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ines Tegator wrote:
There's a biological reason that fighter jets, etc, don't use circles in their HuDs.
Fun fact: fighter jets etc. use circles in their HUDs, most notably to show things like countdowns, relational data, directions, areas of effect, areas of uncertainty, and so on.

The reason is because some thing are very well represented by circles and we have an easier time understanding them if represented that way (especially under stress). It's the same reason why circular dials of many kinds are still in wide use to this day: because they present the information more clearly and efficiently than other shapes would.

Quote:
Here's a mockup I did with my leet (aka, terrible) shop skills and manual painting.

http://imgur.com/FCaKM

I think it's pretty obvious how much easier that is to read then circles.
Yes: not at all. You lose all sense of relative size and of precise location of the areas filled in. The corners will create discontinuities in how much a filled-in segment is “worth”.



Uh, yeah, well, having only worked on fighter aircraft for a couple short decades, a fighter hud is nothing like Eve's gui. The circle, and it's ONLY ONE, locks the intended target and tracks it. So, comparison: FAIL. In a hud, there are far more straight lines, boxes and rectangles than there will ever be circles. Why? Those shapes are easier to pick up and distinguish, especially under info saturation and stress.

The fact that the wonderful CCP crew are looking to change something for the sake of change, won't be the first time nor the last time a stupid idea has been rammed down the player's throats.

Instead of screwing around with a part that absolutely ISN'T BROKEN, how about focusing your misguided efforts on fixing all the **** that is STILL broken, after MONTHS, from that useless inventory? Try that.
Soden Rah
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#803 - 2012-10-18 21:48:50 UTC
Kayrl Bheskagor wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Ines Tegator wrote:
There's a biological reason that fighter jets, etc, don't use circles in their HuDs.
Fun fact: fighter jets etc. use circles in their HUDs, most notably to show things like countdowns, relational data, directions, areas of effect, areas of uncertainty, and so on.

The reason is because some thing are very well represented by circles and we have an easier time understanding them if represented that way (especially under stress). It's the same reason why circular dials of many kinds are still in wide use to this day: because they present the information more clearly and efficiently than other shapes would.

Quote:
Here's a mockup I did with my leet (aka, terrible) shop skills and manual painting.

http://imgur.com/FCaKM

I think it's pretty obvious how much easier that is to read then circles.
Yes: not at all. You lose all sense of relative size and of precise location of the areas filled in. The corners will create discontinuities in how much a filled-in segment is “worth”.



Uh, yeah, well, having only worked on fighter aircraft for a couple short decades, a fighter hud is nothing like Eve's gui. The circle, and it's ONLY ONE, locks the intended target and tracks it. So, comparison: FAIL. In a hud, there are far more straight lines, boxes and rectangles than there will ever be circles. Why? Those shapes are easier to pick up and distinguish, especially under info saturation and stress.

The fact that the wonderful CCP crew are looking to change something for the sake of change, won't be the first time nor the last time a stupid idea has been rammed down the player's throats.

Instead of screwing around with a part that absolutely ISN'T BROKEN, how about focusing your misguided efforts on fixing all the **** that is STILL broken, after MONTHS, from that useless inventory? Try that.




Ahem Thread discussing the upcomming UI changes ......

How about you learn some manners?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#804 - 2012-10-18 22:48:31 UTC
Kayrl Bheskagor wrote:
Uh, yeah, well, having only worked on fighter aircraft for a couple short decades, a fighter hud is nothing like Eve's gui. The circle, and it's ONLY ONE, locks the intended target and tracks it. So, comparison: FAIL.
Hey, don't blame me. I didn't make it. That said, I count three circles on an LCOS HUD. And while we're at it, if the comparison fails so much…

Quote:
In a hud, there are far more straight lines, boxes and rectangles than there will ever be circles.
…maybe you should not keep doing it. Even so, you're still pretty much describing the EVE UI. They're introducing a couple of things for stuff that is very well suited for circular displays: a couple of full/empty-gauges. The world isn't going to end because of it.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#805 - 2012-10-18 23:06:07 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Quote:
In a hud, there are far more straight lines, boxes and rectangles than there will ever be circles.
…maybe you should not keep doing it. Even so, you're still pretty much describing the EVE UI. They're introducing a couple of things for stuff that is very well suited for circular displays: a couple of full/empty-gauges. The world isn't going to end because of it.


lol.. id love to see the petition of a titan killed complaining that the loss was due to circular GUI instead of square GUI, thatd have to be one of the all time best petitions on CCPs logs!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#806 - 2012-10-18 23:09:42 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
lol.. id love to see the petition of a titan killed complaining that the loss was due to circular GUI instead of square GUI, thatd have to be one of the all time best petitions on CCPs logs!
See? If this doesn't convince people that we need more circular bits of UI, I don't know what will. Blink
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#807 - 2012-10-19 03:04:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Last Wolf
ugh.... forum ate my rant. Anyways, the short version.

The guys who worked on this had/has nothing to do with other stuff getting done or not.

So quit yer (female dog)ing and go play the (four letter word)ing game.

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....
Camera Drone
EYES 3VERYWHERE
Sentinel.
#808 - 2012-10-19 03:04:29 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
I don't like the circle indicators; the current ordered list of Shield Armor Hull is very good at conveying at a glance information; the rounded bars condenses it, but at the cost of at a glance clarity; not a worthy tradeoff, IMO.

I do like the idea of conveying targeting range and providing a visual indicator on the HUD of who is hitting you. Overall, I think the ol' box is the best way to go, rather than circles.


what about something like this: http://www.eveshits.com/example-newui-targetlock.png
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#809 - 2012-10-19 06:43:19 UTC
Camera Drone wrote:
Evelgrivion wrote:
I don't like the circle indicators; the current ordered list of Shield Armor Hull is very good at conveying at a glance information; the rounded bars condenses it, but at the cost of at a glance clarity; not a worthy tradeoff, IMO.

I do like the idea of conveying targeting range and providing a visual indicator on the HUD of who is hitting you. Overall, I think the ol' box is the best way to go, rather than circles.


what about something like this: http://www.eveshits.com/example-newui-targetlock.png


+1

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Yankunytjatjara
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#810 - 2012-10-19 18:54:38 UTC
devs, as you are doing this work on in-fight intel.

Would you mind telling me what you think of doing the same kind of upgrade to pre-fight (in-flight) intel? A navigational aid would do wonders for small/medium gangs

I'm speaking of ship velocity vectorsCool

When you're taking damage 99% of the eve fights are already decided!

My solo pvp video: Yankunytjude... That attitude! Solo/small gang proposal: Ship Velocity Vectors
Rengerel en Distel
#811 - 2012-10-19 20:50:25 UTC
For those wondering how it works on Duality if you missed all the other posts, shields is top left, armor bottom, hull right. The damage goes counterclockwise around the circle. It might just be change, but it's a really jarring process. The icons seem to take up a lot more space, even if they don't actually. The in space icons also take up a lot of space, and just become blobs when the ships are near each other. Overall, doesn't seem like an improvement.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Soden Rah
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#812 - 2012-10-19 23:43:37 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
For those wondering how it works on Duality if you missed all the other posts, shields is top left, armor bottom, hull right. The damage goes counterclockwise around the circle. It might just be change, but it's a really jarring process. The icons seem to take up a lot more space, even if they don't actually. The in space icons also take up a lot of space, and just become blobs when the ships are near each other. Overall, doesn't seem like an improvement.


Oh that's soo going to bug me.

It's backwards.

The thing you want to achieve is damage, you want to destroy the enemy.

Your progress towards this goal should go clockwise around the target.

I am sorry but there really needs to be a toggle for making it go around either way because counterclockwise just makes no sense to me.
Crowdad
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#813 - 2012-10-20 00:42:06 UTC
I have an extra bit of visual information I'd like you to add...

I, personally, would like the lock-on indicator to grow outwards or shrink inwards given a ship is flying towards you or away from you, respectively.

Thank you,
Crowdad.
Ark Anhammar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#814 - 2012-10-20 00:46:50 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
First Big smile

Edit:
We know that people are a bit confused what is what in the HP circles around the targets. We will be looking into what we can do to make it clearer.
We appreciate your feedback, and please keep it coming, but there is no need to keep repeating what many have said before you, we are aware of this confusion Smile

Yeah, if you guys are going to go for it, then just go for it! Change the colors of the shield/armor/hull rings both around the ships and in the HUD. It's going to be way easier to adjust to and better to take the changes all at once vs trying a colorful locking ring then later deciding the HUD display should match it.
Oberine Noriepa
#815 - 2012-10-20 01:08:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Oberine Noriepa
Camera Drone wrote:
what about something like this: http://www.eveshits.com/example-newui-targetlock.png

While I like this a lot, I don't think it has enough space to accommodate every status effect. I could be wrong, though. Smile

∃
Sobic
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#816 - 2012-10-20 02:04:20 UTC
I for one LOVE the circles and honestly it would be easy to learn which part represent what after only a few hours of game play.

Shield are left bracket, armor bottom, structure right, or whatever.

Seriously you people are so afraid of change it's funny.... and sad....

EVE is an awesome looking game, and making the graphics actually help me understand better what is going on will be huge for this game.
Rengerel en Distel
#817 - 2012-10-20 13:50:49 UTC
Sobic wrote:
I for one LOVE the circles and honestly it would be easy to learn which part represent what after only a few hours of game play.

Shield are left bracket, armor bottom, structure right, or whatever.

Seriously you people are so afraid of change it's funny.... and sad....

EVE is an awesome looking game, and making the graphics actually help me understand better what is going on will be huge for this game.

I never sad it was hard to learn, i said it was jarring. Your statement seems to indicate you haven't logged onto duality to check it out yourself, which i would recommend before commenting.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
#818 - 2012-10-20 14:09:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Nares
Round targeting UI is bad idea.

People aren't aliens and it is much easier to read 3 lines than THE ROUND THING your designer designed.

In old UI it is just impossible to confuse end of the shield with its beginning, impossible to confuse shield with armor and so on. It was almost perfect - as easy and functional as possible.

Now you are going to sacrifice simplicity and functionality to design. This is wrong.

Sobic wrote:
I for one LOVE the circles and honestly it would be easy to learn which part represent what after only a few hours of game play.

Shield are left bracket, armor bottom, structure right, or whatever.

Seriously you people are so afraid of change it's funny.... and sad....

EVE is an awesome looking game, and making the graphics actually help me understand better what is going on will be huge for this game.


This change does nothing and makes nothing better = it is useless or even harmful.
Adan Natrier
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#819 - 2012-10-20 15:45:05 UTC
I definitely can't bring myself to read 40 pages, but as someone that probably looks at targeting boxes at least a couple hours a day every day (from say, fleets, not say, pve) I do have a few things to input.

The main of these is the basic concern you'll be making changes to a critical system that again, doesn't fully account for all the things important to the 0.0 no-lifer demographic when it comes to shooting at people that might theoretically be in ships, as opposed to merely making shooting rats look nicer. There's a few precedents for bugs that only matter to us not being/never fixed, especially after say, you rip out an old system and implement a completely new one without giving advanced/complicated uses of an old system any prior consideration in particular.

I don't like circles, but whatever, it's apparently in style. I'd be entirely for more information being presented in the UI. It's somewhat more compact, which is good but couldn't it be better? Let's not waste a UI upgrade cycle. Can't we just have more brackets, to cleanly identify ship classes as more than just a differently sized square, or whatever other shape is currently in style? e.g.

frigate > destroyer > cruiser > bc > bs >> capital >> supercap
square > large square > pentagon > large pentagon > (large) hexagon >> octagon >> large octagon

This is not even a new idea. You could put tags onto a shape to indicate subclasses like e.g. heavy assault ship (HAC; this is what players of your game call them, just saying) or logistics, but if I try to suggest anything too useful there's literally no chance of getting it.

Please don't ruin anything in your 'upgrade', thank you.
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#820 - 2012-10-20 18:01:16 UTC
Sobic wrote:
I for one LOVE the circles and honestly it would be easy to learn which part represent what after only a few hours of game play.

Shield are left bracket, armor bottom, structure right, or whatever.

Seriously you people are so afraid of change it's funny.... and sad....

EVE is an awesome looking game, and making the graphics actually help me understand better what is going on will be huge for this game.


Wanna know why we're afraid of change?
Have you ever wondered why there's a running joke about CCP and their "upgrades?"

Look, I'm all for upgrading the UI a bit, but this is really confusing. Maybe make the armor/shield different colors? Like, say, blue for shields and yellow for armor. Keep structure white. WAY easier to keep track of it in large fleet battles.

And before you ask, yes. I have tried it on duality and it is confusing for the first couple dozen times, which brings me to New player familiarity, but then this would be a rant...

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.