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What is the real problem people have with High Sec?
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Darth Khasei
Wavestar Business Ventures Inc.
#341 - 2012-10-19 19:39:37 UTC
Vanyr Andrard wrote:

Commentary, lacking any kind of belief on your part that anyone should care about or be affected by your words, in a way that could possibly lead to action, actions which inevitably affect others? Ok, if you're telling everyone not to care about your ideas...then there's a good chance that no one will. I certainly won't.

Cheers.


Respect. Cool

I think we will be better in communicating if you don't change the meaning of what I post by re-interpreting it into new words that you inject making it "your" new statement and not "my" original statement.

If there is something I post that you need to be clear on I will gladly provide specific clarification for what "I" posted.

It does nobody any good to re-interpret what I post, changing the meaning of what was written and then making a comment on the new stuff you just made up as if it were my original post.
Darth Khasei
Wavestar Business Ventures Inc.
#342 - 2012-10-19 19:43:20 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Doesn't seem to be working well for you, Darth

you should go run some nullsec or lowsec incursions if the reward for hisec payout isn't to your liking


Respect. Cool


Not really sure what you are referring to not working well for me. Not even sure if the post was directed towards me.

If it was would you be kind enough to elaborate on exactly what you think is not working for me please?
Conrad Makbure
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#343 - 2012-10-19 20:43:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Conrad Makbure
Alexa Coates wrote:
the real problem is all the assholes in low/null chased everyone out so now they're whining and crying to have everyone forced into low/null so they can shoot them.


^This is it here.

The low/null dwellers are just going to have to WAIT for our skill queues to finish up before we go take them on. That's how the game is F'ING designed, you null-dwelling-no common sense idiots. We wait, you wait, that's how this works. You waited for 9-10 years, might has well just wait it out for another 10, ok?
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#344 - 2012-10-19 20:52:16 UTC
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
If you think about it from the background story point, highsec does belong, as-is, in the EVE Online universe. The central regions are governed by the four NPC empire factions while the outer ring of the galaxy is comprised of lawless space where anything can happen.
Highsec is not risk-free, though; you can still blow other people up and they can do the same to you. And while characters in NPC corps are protected from wardecs, there are still a lot of players who have joined player corporations and alliances that you can declare war on and be able to kill them without CONCORD intervention.
However, the fact that highsec is as profitable as nullsec(as some people have said earlier in this thread) is what needs to be fixed, by either nerfing Highsec's profitability, buffing nullsec's or maybe even both, to an extent. It is indeed a system that needs to be re-balanced.


The thing is HI sec or null can be as profitable as you choose to make it.
Over all in the right situations NULL will dwarf HI as a source of income.
But when you are spending your time in NULL focused on PVP then no you are not going to make money.

It all comes down to the individuals focus. If your focus is on Gate camps and ganking no you should not make more money then the Mission runners or the people doing incursions.
You will never see things like the "choke points" or the means to make ISK is hi sec go away put into effect.

The real reason people have issues with HI sec go away is so they have more targets nothing more nothing less most of these people only worry about their kill boards what reason other than more Gate camps will choke points benefit eve online?

People are so dense sometimes they do not seem to know that the less risky HI SEC allows them to PVP.
DO you have any idea of what would happen to prices of EVERYTHING in game is they put into effect half of these dumb ass suggestions?
Low Risk Mining Low Risk manufacturing and Low Risk ways to make ISK keeps cost in check and allow you people to Gate camp.

If you could only mine in high risk areas the prices would go through the roof and you gate campers who are not focused on making ISK would not be able to afford to PVP.
You think you have less targets because of HI sec?

You will see a drop off of Mining and Manufacturing meaning everything gets to expensive to fly.
Second you see a drop off of people paying to play EVE and when CCP stops making a profit they close the doors.
If you want to Gank 24/7 go play L O L if you want a sand box game where CCP has already thought out why they can't get rid of HI sec and how doing so would ultimately kill the profits of the company then play EVE take it like it is or you can stop playing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5xvkAPXB9c
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#345 - 2012-10-19 21:12:16 UTC
Davis TetrisKing wrote:
A lot of GD at the moment seems to be unhappy about people living in High Sec almost primarily, so I want to legitimately ask what the biggest issues those players have with allowing other players to live in a mostly risk-free environment.

Can people make more ISK/hour than you think they should (L4s etc)?

Do people think that semi-afk mining is an issue as it potentially drives mineral prices down?

Do people want more targets to shoot in low/null/WH?

Should no-one in eve be allowed to play in a relatively risk free (from a ship getting blown up standpoint) environment?

Do people feel that if something can be done in High-Sec there is no point even bothering to do that activity in Low/Null/WH? (and also is this inherently a bad thing?)


I am legitimately interested in both what the perceived problems are with High-Sec and further what changes such a discussion could lead to in the future.


Yes, L4 missions in highsec should not exist. The generate lots of isk, and no content

Semi AFK is nice, the fail to warp and die.

Yes, more people should band together and go to null

Noone should be safe if they undock.

And finaly, yes, there is no reason to do in null what can be done better in empire.
Maurice deSaxe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#346 - 2012-10-19 21:27:38 UTC
qDoctor Strangelove wrote:
Davis TetrisKing wrote:
A lot of GD at the moment seems to be unhappy about people living in High Sec almost primarily, so I want to legitimately ask what the biggest issues those players have with allowing other players to live in a mostly risk-free environment.

Can people make more ISK/hour than you think they should (L4s etc)?

Do people think that semi-afk mining is an issue as it potentially drives mineral prices down?

Do people want more targets to shoot in low/null/WH?

Should no-one in eve be allowed to play in a relatively risk free (from a ship getting blown up standpoint) environment?

Do people feel that if something can be done in High-Sec there is no point even bothering to do that activity in Low/Null/WH? (and also is this inherently a bad thing?)


I am legitimately interested in both what the perceived problems are with High-Sec and further what changes such a discussion could lead to in the future.


Yes, L4 missions in highsec should not exist. The generate lots of isk, and no content

Semi AFK is nice, the fail to warp and die.

Yes, more people should band together and go to null

Noone should be safe if they undock.

And finaly, yes, there is no reason to do in null what can be done better in empire.



LOL at the people who think L4 is the main sorce of income in HI sec.
At best you are pulling out 20 MAYBE 30M / Hour doing L4 and thats not doing them in no Drake.
Ratting In null pays off way more then that.

This is yet an other idiot who doesn't fully understand EVE at all and thinks its all about the Kill boards and ganks.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#347 - 2012-10-19 21:33:46 UTC
Maurice deSaxe wrote:
LOL at the people who think L4 is the main sorce of income in HI sec.
At best you are pulling out 20 MAYBE 30M / Hour doing L4 and thats not doing them in no Drake.
You're off by a factor of 3…

Yes, if you do them in a Drake, then you might get 20:ish million an hour, and if you do silly things to the Drake you could probably push it towards 30, but why bother when you can just get a better ship and easily get twice that.
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#348 - 2012-10-19 21:39:52 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Maurice deSaxe wrote:
LOL at the people who think L4 is the main sorce of income in HI sec.
At best you are pulling out 20 MAYBE 30M / Hour doing L4 and thats not doing them in no Drake.
You're off by a factor of 3…

Yes, if you do them in a Drake, then you might get 20:ish million an hour, and if you do silly things to the Drake you could probably push it towards 30, but why bother when you can just get a better ship and easily get twice that.



30 mill, factor of 3 is 90, twice 30 is 60...? I think I missed something in the math here.

On other matters: do we have hard data for income, or is it all anecdotal ass extraction?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#349 - 2012-10-19 21:48:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Malphilos wrote:
30 mill, factor of 3 is 90, twice 30 is 60...? I think I missed something in the math here.
You didn't miss anything in the maths; you missed something in the wording:

“At best” you are pulling 20–30M × 3.
If you just trade up from a Drake, you're going to look at 20–30M × 2. A simple Drake-upgrade will not qualify as “at best”.

Quote:
On other matters: do we have hard data for income, or is it all anecdotal ass extraction?
We have hard data, but it's buried in the old forum archives and a few years old. At the time, it was 45:ish million minimum if you did everything inefficiently — we haven't become slower since, and doing it inefficiently doesn't exactly qualify as “at best” either…
Reachok
Doomheim
#350 - 2012-10-19 21:48:39 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Reachok wrote:
Once again another "let's fix hi sec by making everyone go to low sec/0.0" post. I'm not 100% sure, only CCP knows the actual numbers but I'd guess that better than 60% of Eve's subs live in high sec.

A large portion of "eve's subs" who "live in hisec" are nullsec alts.



So, out of say 300,000 subs 200,000 belong to null sec players who have multiple accounts?

The bad guys went the other way, seriously....
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#351 - 2012-10-19 21:52:07 UTC
Reachok wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Reachok wrote:
Once again another "let's fix hi sec by making everyone go to low sec/0.0" post. I'm not 100% sure, only CCP knows the actual numbers but I'd guess that better than 60% of Eve's subs live in high sec.

A large portion of "eve's subs" who "live in hisec" are nullsec alts.


So, out of say 300,000 subs 200,000 belong to null sec players who have multiple accounts?

2 out of 9 chars of mine are in nullsec, the rest are in hisec, and last I checked I weren't being particularly extreme in comparison to most other nullsec people. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#352 - 2012-10-19 22:15:36 UTC
Darth Khasei wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Doesn't seem to be working well for you, Darth

you should go run some nullsec or lowsec incursions if the reward for hisec payout isn't to your liking


Respect. Cool


Not really sure what you are referring to not working well for me. Not even sure if the post was directed towards me.

If it was would you be kind enough to elaborate on exactly what you think is not working for me please?

You're not the only one with "darth" in your name in this thread
Selinate
#353 - 2012-10-19 22:22:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Selinate
Alexa Coates wrote:
the real problem is all the assholes in low/null chased everyone out so now they're whining and crying to have everyone forced into low/null so they can shoot them.


I'm sorry, what?

You know, you have the option to avoid engagement if you want. There is a whole set of modules that can help you do this. There are even ships made to do this. Not only that, but it's far from difficult to avoid engagement in low sec if you don't want to PvP. In null sec, you just have to use a different set of tactics and often a change in module configuration to get around it, but it's still not hard at all.

Learn to play the game before you ***** about people trying to shoot you.
Darth Khasei
Wavestar Business Ventures Inc.
#354 - 2012-10-19 23:18:19 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

You're not the only one with "darth" in your name in this thread


Respect. Cool

Ok. Thanks for clearing that up.
Vanyr Andrard
VacuumTube
#355 - 2012-10-19 23:37:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Vanyr Andrard
Darth Khasei wrote:
Vanyr Andrard wrote:

Commentary, lacking any kind of belief on your part that anyone should care about or be affected by your words, in a way that could possibly lead to action, actions which inevitably affect others? Ok, if you're telling everyone not to care about your ideas...then there's a good chance that no one will. I certainly won't.

Cheers.


Respect. Cool

I think we will be better in communicating if you don't change the meaning of what I post by re-interpreting it into new words that you inject making it "your" new statement and not "my" original statement.

If there is something I post that you need to be clear on I will gladly provide specific clarification for what "I" posted.

It does nobody any good to re-interpret what I post, changing the meaning of what was written and then making a comment on the new stuff you just made up as if it were my original post.



Unfortunately, it turns out that telling you what the words you used actually meant was the only possible productive conversation that we could have had. If I'd known that sooner, I wouldn't have replied.
Darth Khasei
Wavestar Business Ventures Inc.
#356 - 2012-10-19 23:42:05 UTC
Vanyr Andrard wrote:


I just attempted to open your eyes as to the true meaning of your own words. 'None so blind as those that will not see.'

Don't worry, I'll leave them shut from now on.


Respect. Cool

Thank you.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#357 - 2012-10-19 23:55:32 UTC
Selinate wrote:
Alexa Coates wrote:
the real problem is all the assholes in low/null chased everyone out so now they're whining and crying to have everyone forced into low/null so they can shoot them.


I'm sorry, what?

You know, you have the option to avoid engagement if you want. There is a whole set of modules that can help you do this. There are even ships made to do this. Not only that, but it's far from difficult to avoid engagement in low sec if you don't want to PvP. In null sec, you just have to use a different set of tactics and often a change in module configuration to get around it, but it's still not hard at all.

Learn to play the game before you ***** about people trying to shoot you.




Nah.

I take a straight up exploration fit past your bubbles and gate camps and it couldn't tank a level 4. Why don't you mention wormholes?

Wormholes are the best bet. You see, those modules you mention, eventually end up in the hands of the campers. Eventually your luck runs out. You should also mention that the best campers will still have a lot of success.


People should not listen to these platitudes of "join a corp", or "fit this way". It's crap. Use wormholes, go DEEP into null where you won't see another soul for weeks, if not MONTHS at a time, and stay out of these bubble camps. It's the best way. Kept a ship in one piece for three years doing it that way, doing it my way, and not following the advice of others (who are most likely only telling half the story cause they gotta have those kills).

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Ludi Burek
Exit-Strategy
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#358 - 2012-10-20 00:05:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Ludi Burek
It's quiet simple and anyone who has been around for years knows it.

High sec was never intended to be this profitable pve wise. Yes sure, it's the "civilised" world so industry and trade should thrive but the original premise was that for the good stuff (npcs and resources) you needed to venture out of high sec, find it and profit.

Over time it has become just an area where you can make egual isk as anywhere else without risk and since it's high sec without interruptions 10-20% pay cut in reality is no pay cut at all because you are never interrupted.

Someone said it earlier that instead of sticking to the original game plan somehow pve started being introduced into high sec to match peoples increasing skill points.

New players come in and see things how they are and naturally it appears to them the security bands are just an "opt in" feature of how much risk you want for the same income. Roll

If every null/low player has a high sec pve character surely some alarm bells should be going off that something is out of balance.

No hate here. Just saying. I too use the high sec easy isk on tap. Lol

The thing is, high sec pve (and FW farming but that's a whole different issue) is undermining almost every activity in eve including industry and science.
Selinate
#359 - 2012-10-20 00:46:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Selinate
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Selinate wrote:
Alexa Coates wrote:
the real problem is all the assholes in low/null chased everyone out so now they're whining and crying to have everyone forced into low/null so they can shoot them.


I'm sorry, what?

You know, you have the option to avoid engagement if you want. There is a whole set of modules that can help you do this. There are even ships made to do this. Not only that, but it's far from difficult to avoid engagement in low sec if you don't want to PvP. In null sec, you just have to use a different set of tactics and often a change in module configuration to get around it, but it's still not hard at all.

Learn to play the game before you ***** about people trying to shoot you.




Nah.

I take a straight up exploration fit past your bubbles and gate camps and it couldn't tank a level 4. Why don't you mention wormholes?

Wormholes are the best bet. You see, those modules you mention, eventually end up in the hands of the campers. Eventually your luck runs out. You should also mention that the best campers will still have a lot of success.


People should not listen to these platitudes of "join a corp", or "fit this way". It's crap. Use wormholes, go DEEP into null where you won't see another soul for weeks, if not MONTHS at a time, and stay out of these bubble camps. It's the best way. Kept a ship in one piece for three years doing it that way, doing it my way, and not following the advice of others (who are most likely only telling half the story cause they gotta have those kills).



I'd take the same fit into a WH or a null sec gate camp regardless, since it's not uncommon for a WH to be camped by a T3 fleet on either side... I have lived in both before. Also, I fit an exploration fit also if I want to go out into null or WH space as long as I'm solo, with covert cloaky and MWD or AB.
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#360 - 2012-10-20 02:07:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Malphilos
Tippia wrote:
Malphilos wrote:
On other matters: do we have hard data for income, or is it all anecdotal ass extraction?
We have hard data, but it's buried in the old forum archives and a few years old. At the time, it was 45:ish million minimum if you did everything inefficiently — we haven't become slower since, and doing it inefficiently doesn't exactly qualify as “at best” either…


Honestly, I have never (and I have been around a while) seen a reputable, reproducible average in the 45mil range, let alone an "inefficient" average. Individual missions, sure. But the average is always around 25.

Unless we've got data, this line of argument is moot.