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Beyond Oruze and Osobnyk; The Jovian Empires

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Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#81 - 2012-10-19 17:26:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
It certainly gives me hope that I'm not just a crazy capsuleer..Blink

So many esoterics in the paths to illumination...

Anyone care to hazard a guess as to what the Coronation Platform might be now? Here's another hint.. Twisted

I've been waiting a LONG time to see if anyone else was jumping to the same conclusions I was! Thank you, thank you, thank you, Shani Zera! Not saying I'm right, but, I feel exhonorated...

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Shani Zera
Jin-Mei Mercantile Club
#82 - 2012-10-19 18:17:43 UTC
Seems rock solid to me, but others are equally convinced about competing theories, so I try not to brow beat or risk appearing to be doing so.

I'll elaborate a bit though, in the spirit of sharing info.

Aside from the overlapping phrase usage, context is also what makes me so sure of this one thing (Sleepers = Stasis People).

The chronicle seems to build up to some great reveal, but those last lines don't really say much, unless you read a subtle poke at Jovian origins and a big redefinition of a previously misunderstood Jovian faction into them. Something like that is a suitably big reveal for all that mystery layered on thick in the previous thousands of words. P

There's other contextual clues towards Sleepers and Stasis People. Previously in the story the character is explaining the function of C3-FTM Acid. It appears to allow some kind of fragmentation of the consciousness; storing some parts of your identity in an area separate from where your physical body is:

Quote:
...the more situational your needs are, the more you can narrow it down, the less you need to bring along.

She's asking if I'm talking about selective memory, compartmentalizing different parts of ourselves into different areas (her word, not mine). I'm nodding.


That sounds like a trick the Sleepers could have benefited from in various ways. Given that the two characters are discussing a Sleeper compound, it's likely that the Sleepers indeed had some sort of capability to use this acid in similar ways, for reasons I can only speculate about.

The point is the context: The same person later speculating about the Stasis People's actual goals seems to have more than a passing interest in aspects of Sleeper tech.

One more thing...and this for me is the killer piece of evidence that ties "bright and better world" together with everything else:

Earlier in the story, before our protagonist finds her way to the drug dealer (who supplies her with some C3-FTM Acid), she's describing how she used to acquire this same drug long ago.

So...stop for a second and consider that, before we actually look at the excerpts.

This person was acquiring Sleeper compounds before the wormholes were open. That's...significant.

Two possibilities are that they had access to Sleeper space, or that they had it supplied by the Jove directly (who themselves manufacture it, or had their own way to access Sleeper space, assuming it's their own homelands of a sort).

Quote:
C3-FTM (C3-fullero-tris-methanodicarboxylic acid, in case you wondered) – I used to have to go to the mezzanine for this, and I remember how awkward it would be to order such tiny quantities in ushered tones, surrounded by an opulence that outstripped the value of my purchase by an order of magnitude. Obviously, the situation of demand and supply was complicated back then.


Complicated eh? Doesn't seem to point us one way or the other as to how she got it, or who she got it from.

But then you tie it together with another part later on where she's describing the crate of C3-FTM Acid she's just now acquired:

Quote:
A man I hadn't noticed until now (another egger) is handing her a small metal crate, the vials within which I recognize, even though they’re slightly updated and… well, enlarged.

The tubes used to be millimeters thick at their very largest, usually much, much smaller, microns typically (in the early days, first contact).


First contact? What do you think that refers to?

This is the part where I get to sound like a crazy capsuleer, but I think she's talking about AD 23149, when the Jove first make contact with the Gallente (which back then is also the Caldari people).

That would make our protagonist at least 202 years old today, which is the crazy part.

Then again, if you want to also try to explain why our protagonist is interested in Sleepers to begin with, and also account for all the references to Sani Sabik (and her not being a Literal; presumably meaning not a blood-drinking space vampire but something else) then perhaps this theory about her age, and about her getting supplies of some compound via the Jove (or contacts who have access to Jove stuff) ties it all together neatly. She's interested in immortality (another concern of the Sabik faith) and the Sleepers/Stasis People evidently had some insights into that field.

I hope that resembles a coherent post. One problem with this whole plot is you can't explain one thing without it requiring you to explain another, and you tend to get drawn into a complicated series of proofs very quickly.

Of course I think the Sleeper-Jove tie is laid out pretty overtly in the latest novel too. Not having read it I'm just going off everything else available. I'm not ignorant of it, and will get around to it someday, but I find there's still fun to be had digging for esoterics on the path, as Roga says. Big smile
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#83 - 2012-10-19 19:00:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Brilliantly presented! If I had been half as articulate in presenting my own points, we would be further along toward consensus..

And there is still a great amount of information to be revealed.. Hopefully your post will encourage others who have some of the bits sorted to come forward toward a greater understanding of the history of New Eden, the conflict between the Jovians, and the subtleties that continue to shape the cluster we live and play in...

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#84 - 2012-10-19 20:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1861&tid=5

That's a news clipping about how there are various "Sani Sabik".



Here's the catch. And the important note that is being driven by that chronicle.

She didn't call her "SANI Sabik".

She called her "Sabik".

The other one dwells on why this rubs her in a weird way.

“Sabik, you said earlier,” I note with a stressed hesitation. “Meaning?”

Sani is pretty close to "Blood" - Sanguine, and various other root words derived from latin.

So, what does Sabik mean?

Well, right there : Sani Sabik (ancient Amarr for "Bloodfriends) http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=sep01

It means "Friends". So, maybe that's the root of the confusion, "I know a Friend when I see one".

Odd phrase though, right? And, the main character mostly admits believing in the tenants of Sani Sabik. But, not the Sani part. Her ego reads into it. She wants to believe that maybe they've been heard of, and she's curious.

And the hints below, and the "Extra" awkwardness she displays from being in a flesh body.

Quote:
“Is this still about C3?” I'm asking, raising my hands out of antiquated instinct. The Vherokior is looking over her shoulder at me as she slides out of the dirty robes around her, revealing a head-to-toe capsuleer’s pod suit beneath, black with white linings. Must by a YC111 style.


Antiquated instinct, must be... Yc111 style - she hasn't seen one like this.

Why the C3? Well, if it lets you "Compartmentalize", it would be pretty handy in compartmentalizing certain body instincts perhaps, certain quirks of human biology.


I need to shoot people, so I'll be back at this later. Twisted

Where I am.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#85 - 2012-10-20 12:54:49 UTC
Ok, I knew I had left something out before I had to finish the last post.

What I was saying is the Protaganist Capsuleer must be trying to or have already lived "in between" as an Infomorph. And, under the tenets of Sani Sabik, which are basically, superiority, immortality, and well... blood.

But, she doesn't do the whole "blood" thing. She clearly states. Remove the blood, and you have Sabik - superiority and immortality.

Where I am.
Borascus
#86 - 2012-10-20 14:19:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Borascus
((I looked, very briefly, at The Pagera Manton and OK-FEM Blood Raider relevance, and although I got the gist that it had originally been explorative, and the consumption of crew meat came about in much the same way as the Airplane Crash Movie Alive there is more to the story than can be found from the map.


Not knowing about it I wouldn't comment much further, but of note is the abundance of Nebula sites (LADAR), which led me to think that the isotope Isogen-5 needed to react within a fullerene saturated cloud, in W-Space the designation reservoir indicated it was saved for some purpose. As though moving an asteroid the size of The Spod into a cloud of gas.....


Having no real clue about it, I'm leaving it to those that study it frequently. ))

Of note on the Talocan / Jovian premise, its safe to observe that their "homeworlds" both current and past, were unexplored areas on the edge of the Jumpgate Network (accessible zones). This was the element that almost pointed at co-habitude, as the planetary rights, not listed as purchased, may have been the settlement after work, like laying down a city plan and having a suburban townhouse to call your own afterwards. Cotton Mills worked the same way in England; with Mill Owners setting up rows of terraced houses for the Mill Workers, close to the Mills, whilst having larger properties outside of the main area.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#87 - 2012-10-21 02:15:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
The first time I read Jita 4-4, I found it kind of long winded and rambling, so, I just kind of skimmed through it with no great eye to details. Well, after the revelations above, I revisited it with more care.. Wow.. Borascus, if your about, it's gonna take me a while..Lol

The chronicle is directly addressed to the playerbase. It is a message to capsuleers. It contains many revelations in regards to the Sleeper mystery.

Quote:
Jita 4-4 is a good place to start. It's designed to disorient you. If you can start to make sense of it, though, you will start to understand a great deal.


Shani and Bloodpetal, not sure if you missed things, or, are just making me work for it. But, I did..Blink

The first revelation that caught my eye..

Quote:
There's vampires out there, too.

Vampires. Well, when do vampires call on their victims? When they are sleeping, and off their guard.

Quote:
Three is either ten minutes, or a third nod-off. You think I'm kidding. You think there's no way they'd bother with this ****. Well, everything has its protocol, its hard parameters, its bottom line. Well, where are we again? Exactly.

Also, the protagonist has come to Jita to remind herself of three things in particular, the Caldari, the Gallente and the Minmatar. The Amarr are never mentioned in this way, and she also states this is not about the Amarr or the Matari, as she prefers to call them. This is about the Caldari and the Gallente, it always has been.

Next, the protagonist ruminates on the temporary ID required at Jita 4-4..

Quote:
We're all supposed to have one, you see. Otro Gariushi's was 19, the first civilian number available on the rotating register. Even he, Otro Gariushi.

The protagonist has first hand knowledge of Otro Gariushi (or may even be Otro, though I don't think that is the way of it), who brought the Raven to life for the Caldari Navy and made Ishukone more lovable. He died in YC110, the year before the dropsuit comment later in the story becomes relevant. Which paved the way for Tibus Heth to rise to power. One way or the other, the protagonist has strong feelings about Gariushi, that much bleeds through..

The story starts a long time ago, first contact, as stated above. When the Gallente and Caldari were one society. Or does it? This is where it becomes rather strange. It is meant to confuse.

Quote:
I'll take us back a little now, before Jita 4-4 even really existed, to the dawn of the capsuleer era.

Not the dawn of capsule tech, the dawn of the Empyrean Age, YC 105. Certainly, the protagonist is old, using the drug to extend her age, but, the misdirect suggests maybe not as old as is stated above. My own capsuleer pilots license was issued in YC105, during the first rush into the Empyrean Age.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#88 - 2012-10-21 03:25:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Quote:
Some associates of mine at the time discovered that I wasn't just good with their cloning technology, I was capsule compatible too. New arrangements were made. I was second cohort. Joining in the first rush would have drawn a little too much attention, you see, so I waited a year and joined in YC 106.

Second cohort? Enclave Cohort? Vampires need their cohorts, after all. Someone to go where they can't go, to step out into the sunlight, so to speak. Bodyguards as she puts it.

The stress is placed upon what we capsuleers take for granted, and what we fail to realize. We are not immortal, because the recycling of our souls is dependant upon another, the white suits, the empires, the system. But what we can become is something much more, an infomorph. A conscious datastream unbound to the hardware that houses it in our shallow attempt at immortality. A shallow attempt because we fail to realize that as we are shooting through space to grasp at another attempt at organic existence, we are infomorphs.

Everything is up for grabs in this state. The Jovians love information. And we become Mimes for them to pick out of the ether. Something we have not learned to control, as they have. Some of them. Keep in mind there are factions within the Jove. Some have chosen differing paths to explore. Some might be enlightened ethereal beings with no concern or interest in mortal designs, but, there are other ideologies, too. Ideologies that are less wholesome and entirely parasitic, like vampires.

Quote:
Most of us still trust in the system, eating the crap served to us without ever really wondering who cooked it up, if you catch my meaning.

To gain a better understanding of this statement, to catch her meaning, we need to go back to the beginning of the chronicle, where the protagonist speaks of the mezzanine, and the food offerings at Jita 4-4. I will never eat there again..,Twisted

The protagonist is obviously Hyperconscious, she has senses beyond the average human, allegory is almost contemptuously flaunted as to the fare that is served in Jita 4-4. And it's fresh, too. Jump drives have made that possible. Souls are not the only thing recycled in New Eden, eveything is.

She can smell other human imprints, something like the salty tang of freshly caught fish. Human blood. And it is only an hour or so old. She continues to use the allegory of fisheries, but, she really is referring to something else, something more sinister.

Quote:
Within seconds it's here and in the hands of some of the Federation's finest culinary experts, where those succulently smoked and sautéed and skewered atoms permeate the domed terraces, filtering out downwards before they're slowly muted by the dull mix of cheaper breads and spices. I try to imagine just how many different atoms, from how many different planets, must be colliding around here right now. Cosmologically speaking, Jita must be a meeting ground for them like no other place ever before it, in all of human history. All because of isotopes, cynosural fields and jumpdrives. Think about that the next time you're dropping off for a bite.

I've come here to remind myself of the Gallente. If you ever doubted the capitalistic might of their corporate giants, you should make a visit here too sometime. The entire area is dominated by their cuisine, which in a way makes sense, since Gallente food accommodates everyone. It has to. If you ever thought politics or laws were the primary concern of an infinitely fractured populace, think again. Think about tonight's dinner. I know I am.


Take the Rockjaw, something that is well familiar with Amarrian torture chambers, served in a dish that is distinctly Amarrian, while other establishments serve it with Pator steak, it's counterpart..

Quote:
Some meals speak for themselves and many, do in fact, have something to say. This one says "I am unquestionably Minmatar."

And so we come to the crux of the matter. Who is this protagonist? And what is the signifigance of it all? What is with all the stress on only bringing part of your identity along with you?

Quote:
“Sabik, you said earlier,” I note with a stressed hesitation. “Meaning?”

“Meaning, happy birthday.”


The protagonist speaks of a system out in Bleak Lands, one in Domain and the Blood Raiders, and yes, she is most definately Sani Sabik, but, not a Blood Raider. The Happy Birthday comment is very much the heart of the matter, just not sure exactly what it means. I almost think it may be Jamyl Sarum, as she is a recognizable figure who first cloned in YC 105 and worries a bit about being recognized.

The use of the drug might be a means to suppress the second personality that dwells within her. The only problem with it is she would be Empress by this time. The YC 111 podsuit comments tend to dismiss this idea.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#89 - 2012-10-21 15:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Just been reminded of something by Borascus that I neglected to add.. But, to be honest, I probably missed others, as well. The protagonist wonders if the smugglers she is dealing with are really what they claim to be, or whether they are Jovians, or Sleepers, in disguise. Sani Sabik is the enigmatic religion of the Jovians.

The shaking arm of the capsuleer as she hands the protagonist the crate seems to belie the insinuation she has been under gravity for a length of time.

And the revelation that 19 is the first civilian number assigned to the temporary ID system. Borascus used a different expression in fiction than I have previously. He used The City and the Stars.. I used Aeon Flux.. What is the relevence of the first 18 numbers?

19 is a prime number and also a triangular number, harkening to the relevence of 3's in Eve...

The protagonist says the Gallente have to provide food to the cluster.. Even our depredations don't make a dent in the burgeoning population, so they have expanded the operation.

In the Precious Tableau, we have that one possible scenario that isn't in the database, implying others. We capsuleers are a solution to that problem, that's one of the reasons we were created. Exploring possibilities.

The protagonist alludes to a couple star systems in Amarr space, one houses Impetus stations.. Impetus is a direct competitor to NOH..

Finally, most of the "people who matter" have become capsuleers, all except Tibus Heth, who can't because of his condition.. He is a wildcard, outside of their control..

Keep in mind the comment she makes that we are cattle. The Oruze Constructs show that the population represented by the Osobnyk's is outstripping their ability to house them. And the deaths on this side of the veil continue to increase.. Makes one wonder just what it takes to make an Oruze... And how many Oruze it takes to make something else..

One last thing, in one of Bloodpetal's links from above, one of the Dev's mentions the movie Prometheus, not gonna spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it, but, I had to go out and buy it after seeing the link.. I suggest it highly..Blink

Bon Apetit!

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#90 - 2012-10-21 16:40:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
1.
The Sahtogas+Mabnen incidents are detailed in : http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Omir_Sarikusa

Pretty specific occassions really. The interesting thing is she says calls Omir by first name. So she's almost familiar with him in a personal way, and apparently he's not gonna see that booty.

2.
I think the other significant hint comes in "Because part of this must be ego – my ego, that is, feeding into it, making this more significant than it is. Of course. Part of it. Part of."

The part she wants to use the C3-FTM to compartmentalize?


3.
Now. There's a bit we all seem to have overlooked...

Quote:
You certainly won't appreciate what happens next until you grasp a few basics, and you're far from that.


Wait, what? Something happens next? And we're not told what it is?

It sounds like... right after she's given the C3-FTM. Something happens.

To take a step back. Why is she so obsessed with sleep from the get go?

And...


4.
My immediate suspicion is that I'm about to run into one of my own kind. Or, at least, another capsuleer.

So, she doesn't specifically consider herself only a capsuleer. A subset of Capsuleer. Another one of 'her' kind. Some kind of non-blood drinking "Sabik". But not specifically Sani Sabik in the greater tone of things. An infomorphic Sabik. Interested in Superiority+Immortality through a data consciousness, who has a desire for C3-FTM to isolate/focus a part of her mind to do a specific task OUTSIDE her capsule.


5.
Outside the infomorph state? If you were to be an infomorph and take a "trip"out of your infomorph state, you don't really need ALL that data that you would have in your dataform. In fact, your flesh might not even be able to contain it all in neural remapping.

Quote:
Firstly, I'm still not convinced that these capsuleers ... aren't just posers, and this overextension, this trying-too-hard veneer isn't just the surface-deep summation of who and what they really are.


And what's that? Posers?

Maybe they're not... capsuleers. Maybe this little Jita 4-4 community of egger druggies is more than they're pretending to be. Why would you carry 7 LITERS of a substance, and not know what it does? Every good trader knows his goods. Are we expected to believe she's clueless?

Also, why is she so insistent that "she is amongst company", and then calls her Sabik? Just before that though... "“I'm not here because I'm,” --clueless? Is she trying to avoid being snarky? And goes for the direct statement. If she thinks you're amongst 'Company', and she thinks you're a "Sabik"... then, is this capsuleer another type of "Sabik"?

Why, "happy birthday"? Why that specific phrase?

If you were getting a gift, sure. But, she's paying for this 7 liters, right? Maybe it's just an expression, but is anything just an expression here?

We presume she gets the canisters. But, she already failed to notice one person hand the canisters over. What stops something less... pleasant from happening?

Quote:
Which brings us to the second thing that eventually dawns, and on an diminishing scale now, down to the thousands. The second realization is that capsuleers can die. They are not immortal.


What is diminishing exactly? The dawning of the realization? Or the fact that it's less likely to happen? Thousands realize... what exactly?

Something happens next, that's important. It has to do with Power and (Im)mortality (Sani Sabik philosophy) - Central Capsuleer Qualities. Central "Sabik" qualities.

You know. Kind of like this person?

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Revan_Neferis
Licensed :: 2006.02.22

Chronicle Written in 2010.09.06 15:52:00
http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1380078
Revan seems to have disappeared/stopped playing about 4-5 months later.

Coincidences?

Where I am.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#91 - 2012-10-21 17:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Not likely..Blink

Think about this, too.. In an all encompassing conspiracy to use an organic human mind to create something else, if there were a faction against this process, where might it hide? How might it change it's basic state of being into something else. Something beyond the "rules" of the conspiracy? If one were not in the inner circle, but, who was every bit capable and driven enough to mirror the effort.

And how might compartmentalization aid in that process? Do we know of any entities that seem to compartmentalize their greater being into smaller sums to realize a greater whole? Ones that are not based on an organic system? And are effectively, immortal?

Sani Sabik believe that the majority of humanity are cattle, to feed and service the Savants... So, how would one who understood this reality of our existence escape it? Say a Savant level personality who was out of the loop. How would they fight it? Her bio suggests she wants to reduce the population proportionately, and she has ties to the Guristas, so probably did know Otro Gariushi.

Good eye, I missed the disappearance of Ms. Nefaris.. I had actually started to wonder why she had made no comment on some of my posts that were directed toward her "area of expertise", so to speak.. Thanks for providing a reasonable explaination..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#92 - 2012-10-23 23:02:34 UTC
Roga wrote:

I'm not SAYING it was Jovian...

Where I am.
Shani Zera
Jin-Mei Mercantile Club
#93 - 2012-10-24 02:17:21 UTC
I fuggen love ancient aliens dude. He's the perfect mascot for the Sleeper mystery. P
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#94 - 2012-10-24 14:18:24 UTC
Lol

One more thing to add. And it relates to corporate ownership. As to who owns what. Look closely at the shareholders in a corporation, and take the following quote into account.

Quote:
These people say that we've arrived at the point where it's no longer even clear who owned what anymore (hyperbole: trademarks keep that perfectly clear, if only for the lawyers - most consumers don't even understand the most rudimentary networks of corporate ownership). The favorite topic amongst economists is the strange way (particularly strange to the Caldari) the Gallente economic model worked on pushing everything into the public domain and then recycling it, again and again, making it just different enough to justify the trademark. This is part of what I mean when I say they don't play the Caldari game. But again, people overlook how it was accomplished.


Hidden in there somewhere is a further clue to where we stand..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#95 - 2012-10-25 02:37:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Mimes, the symbiotes of sentience..

Intimately connected to Endosymbiotic Theory and the mechanics of ascendence. Isotopes, indeed! Particularly stable ones that can last a LONG time and have a tendency to self assembly..

Much as midi-chlorians are the driving mechanic behind the Force in the Star Wars universe, mimes are the symbiotic free form intelligence that make humanity sentient in New Eden. They are the beings of light in the wormholes, the Lutins that swirl around the gate in the Children of Light chronicle. The heart of the matter we seek to unveil.

And these are intimately connected to heuristics and aurum.. It's always about money!

Out of town and on a laptop and a crappy connection right now, but, I will elaborate when I get home tommorrow night. Yes, it has always been the Jovians. Those who know me, know that I have never steered too far off that course, even when I have been wrong..P

The Jovians, and their myriad incarnations and factions are the only force capable of the advanced theories postulated here. Call them any of the many names they have acquired through the millenia, they are still Jove..Blink

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#96 - 2012-10-26 13:08:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
So, where we are?

Another long winded post from that annoying capsuleer who suffers from extreme cognative disassociation and a slightly too healthy ego. Maybe..Blink

Bloodpetal, thank you again for pointing me in the right direction. Reduction and C3. I will attempt to make this post coherent, but not being a chemist or a botanist, you will likely have to correct me in a few places. I welcome the instruction. My case for the ascension of the Jovians.

Where did the Enheduanni(Jovians) go that the Jovians(Baseline) found it difficult to follow? Nowhere. They remain all around us, hiding in plain sight. You see these Jovians(Enheduanni or Elders) used an ancient mechanic to deliver their consciousness' to a different medium. One that bends the force of stars to their purpose.

Wyke, you will find some of the answers you are looking for in your questive post, here. It is intimately relevant to a particular type of bacteria (and a few plants, like ferns), and suggestive as to why the "pirate" factions are raiding the Matari botany labs.

C3-fullero-tris-methanodicarboxylic acid, that strangely named substance that a capsuleer was questing for in Jita 4-4, one that has become ever so more plentiful and easier to acquire in recent years.

C3, carbon isotope with the ability to power the mechanics of carbon fixation and is a integral portion of the life cycle of certain plants and bacterias. It also seems to utilize fullerenes and methane in the photosynthesis process. Carbon fixation is the reduction of inorganic carbon (carbon dioxide) or organic carbon to more complex organic compounds by living organisms. Much as these plants and bacteria "grow" and "feed", so to do the Lutins. They are autotrophs or more probably, from the evidence we have, photoheterotrophs. And they seem to use a combination method of phototrophy and lithotrophy to accomplish the task. It is likely the Jove were pushing for autotrophy, but, were forced by circumstance to resort to the heterotrophy model, becoming vampires.

Jita 4-4 expresses the human ecosystem and strengthens my assumptions of the Four Occupations, and the fact that the Enheduanni became Photoheterotrophs. It likens the Gallente to carnivorous heterotrophs (merchants), who create nothing, but, rather rely on the steadfast work of the base heterotrophic Caldari (craftsmen) to capitalize on and extort from them their own comfortable living. The Enheduanni are a bacteria feeding on the recycled carbon of the cluster, enhancing their knowledge by hijacking the mimes that we ourselves broadcast across the cluster. Just as the Gallente are a society that exploits the hard work of others as an easier method to prosperity than the hard work ethics espoused by the Caldari.

Once you accept the model, as you must eventually, the pieces begin to fall nicely into place. Some of my above points become irrelevant and dead wrong, as some of you are seeing. To the rest of you, dwell on it, it may not make sense, at first.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Shani Zera
Jin-Mei Mercantile Club
#97 - 2012-10-27 03:28:50 UTC
Careful that you don't end up speaking in your own private language Roga. P

Had a few more thoughts...

Random observation about characters as inspiration:
Otosela and Wuos were important systems in picking up some clues for me. Both have Zainou stations, and both had Zainou programs run out of those stations. Otesela had a "Neuropsychology" program run by Tukoss, before he left, and Wuos had something called the Kosoichi network (essentially, Sleeper research before Sleepers were known - I think there were likelier muses than Revan, much as I love the character). One of those programs was official canon, the other decidedly not, but they play nicely together. Lastly, and this one stretches plausibility most of all but...the actual location of those station systems, right next to the entry to Geminate, puts them conveniently close to SoCT territory. Note that we're talking about stations which have been there since the beginning of the game so if there's any intent here, it was some kind of long-term play to build loose associations with Zainou (subsidiary of the Ishukone, the Caldari mega with the most extensive relationship with the Jove) and the SoCT. That's some serious subtlety...or some amazing serendipity. Kinda cool either way.

Thoughts about reverence for the Jove (the current empire)
They may make powerful enemies in more of a conventionally understood sense (don't ever @&*# with us, or we'll cut you), but an underlying theme in these stories seems to be that the Jove are not worth our unquestioning reverence. They seem to be on the wrong side of history on a number of issues, most notably in their implied attempts to hamper research into the Sleepers, just so they can maintain the status quo (ignorance of their origins) out of self-interest (not having to answer sticky questions).

The Sleepers are a special case of course, and perhaps worthy of respect, if they're even around in any meaningful sense to be afforded it. They are distinct from the current Jove empire because they pre-date the days of Jove contact with the other civilizations (educated guessing), and they took a different course (what looks like a very different course, based on some basic observations about their level of tech and so on).

In a sense the Jove - meaning the current empire that we know (little of) - are the stewards of the cluster. They call us their 'children' lets not forget...but then their cousins look like they had a lot more figured out than the current Jove did. That's not necessarily my interpretation, but it's one that certainly came to the foreground recently.

Kuvakei seems to think the Sleepers had a better path, or at the least that the current Jove have the wrong one. He has gone (and is going) to some lengths to call the 'stewards' and their 'children' on it.

That argument, incursion, war, whatever, seems to boil down to a disagreement about future paths. To me that best explains the presence in Jove space, and the early associations with Sleeper space (where the Nation's wormhole tech was first reportedly deployed). Maybe Sansha's altering things in his favor just by presenting this challenge, or maybe these incursions are an epic failure? I can't really say.

However, as horrifyingly insane as Sansha's Nation is, he must have had his reasons for believing that the capsuleers are heading in the wrong way (if he indeed believes it). It might be a case of an otherwise repulsively immoral character being dead right about a crucial overarching ethical truth eluding the wider populace (or it might not). He's a good, if somewhat comical, choice for that role, if so.

There are of course a lot of reasons why the Jove would cover the "origin problem" up, and maybe there wasn't just one reason for it, but don't forget to consider that it's a move to cover one's ass and maintain a meticulously cultivated mythology of awesome and terrifying power. That becomes a tricky prospect when your relatives show you up.

...and even more difficult when your students and 'children' band together in a scientific rebellions dedicated to undermining your obfuscatory efforts.

By "students" I mean...I don't think Tukoss and Burreau were romantically involved. I think they were class mates at one of the best universities in the cluster, not far from Zainou's stations in eastern Caldari space. I think they blew against the wind and got swept away (see: don't @#&$^ with us).

That's connecting a lot of dots, but it fits for me so...P

Let me know if just rambled in my own incoherent language there. It seems to be a common
Borascus
#98 - 2012-10-27 11:00:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Borascus
Shani that post is quite coherent, not plagiarised, and interesting

I'm going to pick a few lines out of it, only to show a couple of different angles as encountered from a different pair of eyes, no offence intended.

Shani Zera wrote:


Had a few more thoughts...

Thoughts about reverence for the Jove (the current empire)


((1.)) They may make powerful enemies in more of a conventionally understood sense (don't ever @&*# with us, or we'll cut you), but an underlying theme in these stories seems to be that the Jove are not worth our unquestioning reverence. They seem to be on the wrong side of history on a number of issues, most notably in their implied attempts to hamper research into the Sleepers, just so they can maintain the status quo (ignorance of their origins) out of self-interest (not having to answer sticky questions).

((2.)) The Sleepers are a special case of course, and perhaps worthy of respect, if they're even around in any meaningful sense to be afforded it. They are distinct from the current Jove empire because they pre-date the days of Jove contact with the other civilizations (educated guessing), and they took a different course (what looks like a very different course, based on some basic observations about their level of tech and so on).

((3.)) In a sense the Jove - meaning the current empire that we know (little of) - are the stewards of the cluster. They call us their 'children' lets not forget...but then their cousins look like they had a lot more figured out than the current Jove did. That's not necessarily my interpretation, but it's one that certainly came to the foreground recently.


((4.)) However, as horrifyingly insane as Sansha's Nation is, he must have had his reasons for believing that the capsuleers are heading in the wrong way (if he indeed believes it). It might be a case of an otherwise repulsively immoral character being dead right about a crucial overarching ethical truth eluding the wider populace (or it might not). He's a good, if somewhat comical, choice for that role, if so.

((5.)) There are of course a lot of reasons why the Jove would cover the "origin problem" up, and maybe there wasn't just one reason for it, but don't forget to consider that it's a move to cover one's ass and maintain a meticulously cultivated mythology of awesome and terrifying power. That becomes a tricky prospect when your relatives show you up.

...and even more difficult when your students and 'children' band together in a scientific rebellions dedicated to undermining your obfuscatory efforts.

((6.)) By "students" I mean...I don't think Tukoss and Burreau were romantically involved. I think they were class mates at one of the best universities in the cluster, not far from Zainou's stations in eastern Caldari space. I think they blew against the wind and got swept away (see: don't @#&$^ with us).




1. I think the survivability of the Jovians as the slapstick top dogs that barely address their position in the scheme of order is a fitting aspect, its like Nixon's "not a crook" quote. But also, I think their survivability revolves around their secrecy, for the same reasons they are always able to turn up at just the right time.

Appreciating their "air of grandeur" and citing The Immensea; Its clear that a Jovian is at a hidden station (Jove involvement in CONCORD was as an original founder despite their current position), to collect an artifact or reliquary from the founder of Immensea, whilst allowing a cover story of "rogue CONCORD discovers... obtains accolade" Whilst the Angel's have a bounty target in the area, and the bounty hunter is the brother of a member of CONCORD's payroll. - They win across the cluster in that story. No one knows they went corpsing, unless its leaked by one of the protagonists. From their point of view, a massive smokescreen went up after they walked away with an unknown corpse.

2. Sums up the desire of the "Jovian stasis people" quite well, lots of unknown information to digest in a purely emotionless consumption. However, much like the Jovian motherships, they huddle up in one location and share mental faculty. I think its like the shedding of a skin.

3. Motivation to advance, or resting on laurels for the reverse requires the need to do so.

4. Sansha's incursion research stations seem to be aimed at improving combat reflexes in True Slaves, their use as the same military analysis used by the empires whilst observing combat training, is a strong theme in the raids during an incursion. It would be totally pointless to harvest trit, pye, nanite compounds etc, just to spend those vessels to lose 500k people abducting 500k people. In Egonics people complained about being monitored (voice comms patch, fiction story complement) by a Gallentean VoIP firm. Sansha only seems to gain gambits.

5. I have to propose that the Jovian's don't "know" the Sleeper's at the person to person level. If the Jovian's blame the enheduanni for the creation of the Jovian disease, or the lack of resource dedication to cure it, then the "in-out shepherds" are either withholding information on both sides or the Sleeper's want the disease in prevalence. a. Jovian asks enheduanni to cure Jovian disease using sleeper neural network of research. b. Enheduanni says "sure, it'll cost ya". c. Jovian waits. d. Enheduanni says "no can't do it, but it cost us lots". e. Sleepers have no clue.

6. They might even have become lovers studying at SoCT together, it wouldn't have been forbidden surely. Also, whilst working for Zainou; Tukoss had access to the first Empire Infomorph, he then disappears into Minmatar space with a dream, gathering a lot of support but appears to have gone forever.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#99 - 2012-10-27 11:04:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
Nope, it seems to parallel quite a few of my own connected dots. I, personally, think there was a bit of a romantic involvement between Tukoss and Burreau, but, it was one sided by her. Tukoss is shown in one instance to be a Caldari "secret agent" who seems to "blow her off" at the end. He used her to achieve an end.

I also think that many of the big players have been educated by the SoCT. In real life Illuminati conspiracy theory, the NWO is not a unified organization, it is built in blocs that vie for the controlling interest against each other, as well as maintaining the plausible deniability factor against the rest of us. The Illuminati is just one bloc. Education institutions like the Skull and Bones Society play a major role in developing the recruitment model for the "conspiracy". While the media\entertainment industry represents a sperate bloc that recruits in a different manner. Take for instance, Midna, who seems to idolize Sani Sabik, a very good candidate for the Jovian religion. Who also had a drug problem that set back her career. Another parallel?

In the Sister's Arc, Rogue Drones are shown to be pawns in the conspiracy game. In one instance you are quarantining a hive, helping the Caldari to assure that no drones escape the quarantine region and spread. This is long after the initial outbreak of Rogue Drones, showing that "something" is using the drones as a medium to piggyback on. While at the end of the arc, you are helpfully handing Dagan over to a very advanced Rogue Drone Hive under the auspices of all four Empires and the Sisters. A seemingly seperate entity using the drones.

This also hints that the Jove don't like to "get their hands dirty". They use the Empire factions to do their dirty work. This is very much in line with the Sani Sabik philosophy, they think themselves superior to us. Again, take Theodicy as a confirmation to this ideology. Grious seems genuinely offended that the Enhuadanni have forced them to do such base work as saving the Matari Elders genetic material. Collecting bodies is something the Jovians have risen above. It is something they only do out of extreme need, or covertly, as this was a function they performed under the old regime. One they relate to a slap in the face.

Again this shows the Jove to be divided into factions, just like everything else. The Jovian bloodlines confirm that there are still factions within the Jove, some mirroring Nations advocation of machinery over gene manipulation in the advancement of humanity. Some placing more stock in the chaotic gene therapy of the female modifiers, than anything else, to find an answer to the Jovian Disease.

Yes, I do tend to lump Jovians together as a whole when perhaps I should be addressing particular factions within. The language that does exist is kind of muddy..

The Enhuadanni seem to have chosen to become the Lutins, their way of escaping the constant pestering of the Jovians who looked to them for a cure to a disease which kept them in an inferior position against the Eheduanni and the Sleepers. And also an ideological choice in the direction they decided to go with regards to evolution. Which also seems to imply the Enheduanni are no more free to leave the cluster than we, or the Sleepers or the rest of the Jovians are. They chose to "evolve" rather than expand beyond their current sphere of operation.

The Sleepers, as Infomorphs, do not seem to be contained by the reproductive straightjacket that the other Jovians are, nor do the Enhuadanni, given their seeming choice of becoming a vampiric bacterial lifeform, and effectively immortal. Which taken in context with other hints in Anoikis, seems to imply the Sleepers don't care for the Enhuadanni much either. Remember, the Elders are portrayed as pissing all the Jovians off. The pillaging of Dust tech by the Amarrians shows that the Enhuadanni no longer protect the Sleeper Enclaves from depredation, they are now reliant on their drones to do that.

An Echelon was used by the Amarrians to gain access to the Sleeper Enclaves, showing that some faction of the Jove gave us the tech to bypass their security network. Technology garned from Sansha's Nation, who seemingly was "resurrected" by some Jovian faction and instilled with information that allowed him to bypass Jovian security on this side of the wormholes. The Sleepers seem to be the faction in the best position to achieve this. He also possesses the technology to bypass CONCORD security routines. Which a faction of the Jovians use to support the Empires.

Sansha Kuvakei is simply another pawn in the Jovian chess game. A pawn that is being used to interrupt the objectives of the Jovians supporting the Empires. While the pirate factions, via Mordu's Legion, are the initial recipients of Dust tech, the flawed prototypes alluded to in the 514 chronicle. Factions that are now actively and openly operating against the Empires.

The SoCT, which you tied to the Caldari and Zainou, also has a direct opponent in Gallente space, the Sisters of Eve. Both are arguably motivated by a religion. Both are heavily funded by anonymous donations. What race is arguably the richest in the cluster? Which race has had millenia to acquire wealth?

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#100 - 2012-10-27 12:48:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
We know that the Talocan and Yan Jungs cooexisted. The Yan Jungs have been shown in chronicles and in game lore to have been in Gallante and Matari space, while the Talocan existed in what is now Caldari space. The space they pioneered after their break with the Gallente.

The Modifiers, stressed as a female dominated society in the Jovian bloodlines writeup show many parallels to current Empire blocs. They have been hardest hit by the Jovian Disease, and likely the most desperate to rise above it.

Quote:
Existentialists The Existentialists are the most energetic and vociferous Jovian group. They live for the moment and are always ready to experiment, even with their own bodies. To them, nothing is sacred. The Existentialists tend to have little to do with the other races, as they find them boring and uninspiring.

Puritans The Puritans, like many Jovians dream of returning to their genetic roots, now long since lost during the Shrouded Days. Those that are most active in their search for the 'untainted' Jovian genes are called the Puritans. In the hope of cleansing the nation of the Jovian Disease the Puritans try out ever-more outrageous genetic engineering stunts, often with quite unexpected results. But unlike the Existentialists the genetic engineering of the Puritans has the specific aim to return the human element to the Jovians, instead of being just narcissistic in nature.

Lab Rats Lab Rats are Jove who are artificially created strictly for scientist purposes, outside of social motivations. All Jovians are artificially conceived. In most cases a family unit is involved, donating genes, taking care of the rearing and so on, but this is not always so. Often, persons are conceived for some altruist reasons, usually research purposes. These Jovians are treated the same as everyone else, but they tend to be a little 'off', due to the clinical method they were conceived.


The existentialists might move toward a purely mechanical based existence to survive and evolve above the Jovian Disease. The Rogue Drones have Hive Mothers that lead them.

The Puritans might be indistinguishable from baseline, Empire humans, depending on how far their gene therapy has advanced. They remind me very much of the Sisters of Eve. The Sisters of Eve interact with Rogue Drones on an almost friendly level.

The Lab Rats could be any number of factions presented in lore. They are not very well enumarated. My best guess is they were the first modifiers, the Talocan.

The Statics contain the Elders, who, if the Elders are the Architects, were not as afflicted by the Jovian Disease as the Modifiers. In the case of the Elders, not at all.

Quote:
Elders The Elders were one of the first groups to use genetic engineering for a special purpose, namely that of slowing the aging process. Once, the Elders were a prominent political force in the Jovian society, but after they brought about the fall of the first Jovian empire they have become more reclusive. Elders can become many centuries old, it's uncertain exactly how old they can become, but some suggest they can outlive even members of the Amarrian royal families.

Unsullied The Unsullied are the group of Jovians that have rejected further generic experiments and instead adopt conventional methods to deal with sickness and old age. Genetic engineering has through the centuries transformed Jovian society in every aspect imaginable. Many Jovians, denoted as Unsullied, believe that enough has been done. They are advocates of cyber-implants and want to use machines instead of genes in the search for better life.

Stasis People The Stasis People are Jovians that voluntarily go into cryo-stasis for decades or centuries, hoping that when they wake a bright and better world will greet them. For many Jovians their race is in the twilight of their greatness. Ever since the fall of the first empire the Jovian society have been in a slow, steady decline. Most blame the Jovian Disease for this and believe that the Jovians can only hope to turn the tide once a cure for the disease has been found.


The Elders are the oldest bloodline of the Jovians, as stated above, if they conform to the Architects, they are unaffected by the Jovian Disease.

The Unsullied very much conform to the creators of the Sleepers society, the creators and original owners of the Construct and the Jovians behind the ressurection of Nation, they conform to the Enhuadanni. If so, the fact that they chose an existence as the Lutins suggests it was an act of desperation, forced on them by their opponents.

The Stasis people are derived from both Static and Modifier (Puritan) stock, the central processing power of the Unsullied.

Theodicy, which takes place a little over a century ago, defines a marked shift in the tactics employed by the Jove in their ideological struggle, one which shows the Jovians taking a much more physically active participation in the struggle. Anoikis reflects this in the Ruins of Enclave Cohort 27, and in KSpace with the introduction of pod tech to the Empires and the foundation of CONCORD. Most, but not all, of the Jovian Mavericks like Admiral Ouriya were Modifiers. The Jovians we know of were collecting collecting DNA from charismatic prodigies, as if they didn't have access to the vast DNA database in Anoikis.

DNA that could bolster their depleted will to lead and carry out an insurrection. Emotion and a will to fight that had been bred out of them during the First Jovian Empire, by the Elders, the Architects, the Yan Jungs.

Almost as if the Construct was taken over by a faction that didn't build and control it. Lianda Burreau notices an odd familiarity about the architecture of the Enclaves. The question, does she recognize it via the Society, or the Sisterhood?

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.