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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4901 - 2012-10-19 18:35:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
The SBs use torps, indeed. Most of them dont seem to use t2 launchers though, according to eve-kill ..
And the Phoon is in this list the only really viable PvP combat BS. Its not Caldari, ofc ... Scorp is not there for its Torps, nor is Widow.

Start by telling us what you want. You are always moving the point, each time we say something, you say no, there is more. The most hilarious is this "not caldari BS" ****. What do you want ? We already told you torp will be buffed, so the raven might be pvp compliant, as will be the golem, and the drake, and the caracal. They you say "I doubt it", but the truth is you don't know, but they very well may be very good.

You are ignoring all the answers to your problems.


No, this is simply wrong. You deny to accept my answers, points and reasons. Same I do with yours though, so no one can really blame the other there. I simply dont see a reason any more to argue with *you* as a person. Which does not mean I will leave your in my opinion wrong points uncommented :) but talking with you about this all really is pointless.

What I can do apart from that is to point out *your* char seems to have little or no first hand experience with those missile systems. You seem to be gallente only, and I fail to see the gallente Cruise Missile, Heavy Missile and HAM ships which play a big role in PvP ;) .. and the only torp ship is the SB, naturally. So I think you dont have any clue about that at all. You never used a HML ship in PvP nor a HAM ship, nor did you see how very sucky Cruises and Torps perform in PvP, or in PvE compared to the current OP ships... so yes, your opinion as being on the receiving end of missile PvP is not of any relevance for me. I would for sure much more listen to what you say if you talk about balancing of Gallente ships.

But back to Cruises and Torps, and also to HAMs, they all perform very bad, and that might be better with the next patch, most probably they wont work better though. What can be said for sure is, that the one and only PvP medium or large size missile system which works *right now* will be worse after the patch. And I dont see any other large or medium missile system taking a good (=top/on par with top) place after this patch.

I hope I am wrong. I am pretty sure I am not.

Best regards.

PS: That what you call "the most hilarious" shows exactly how poor your understanding of this all is: nerfing a working PvP missile system is in the first place a CALDARI nerf, because they are the ones with missiles as their signature weapon. Winmatar have some missiles too, as do other races, but they dont rely on them. Caldari do. Others pointed out before why so many Caldari pilots did NOT train for hybrids (they sucked a lot too, for a long time) and rather went to train Amarr/Lasers or Winmatar/Projectile when they realised how poor most missile systems and ships were doing in PvP. Those Caldari who stuck with missiles and their race used Drakes. Or Tengus. Nothing else really worked. So no, giving Winmatar a working Torp-BS after this patch will not help with this issue :)
Xamiakas
United-Empire
#4902 - 2012-10-19 18:43:42 UTC
i`m pretty sure that the winter`s in full force back at their HQ.. it froze those last bitsa of common sense they had long ago off.. cause right now.. they`re just killing one of the 4 playable factions in this game.. and expect people to actually love it? cccp... please.. be so kind.. get some oxygen masks and hot very sweet tea.. `cause currently u make no f sense whatsoever..

<-- unbelievably low tollerance to stupidity in people. That + you being your mother's child might aswell be the main reason why i am NOT your father.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4903 - 2012-10-19 18:45:30 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
and I fail to see the gallente Cruise Missile, Heavy Missile and HAM ships


That you do indeed.

Lachesis - Gallente T2 cruiser, combat recon
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4904 - 2012-10-19 18:51:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
and I fail to see the gallente Cruise Missile, Heavy Missile and HAM ships


That you do indeed.

Lachesis - Gallente T2 cruiser, combat recon


You should 1) learn to quote, 2) post your combat alt, 3) show how the Lachesis is of any significance for this matter here. I really hope you dont come back before you did that all.


for 1) a little helper:

Noemi Nagano wrote:

and I fail to see the gallente Cruise Missile, Heavy Missile and HAM ships which play a big role in PvP ;)


and yes, that was edited. But way before you posted ..
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#4905 - 2012-10-19 18:53:30 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
and I fail to see the gallente Cruise Missile, Heavy Missile and HAM ships


That you do indeed.

Lachesis - Gallente T2 cruiser, combat recon


You might as well argue politics or religion with Niom she has dug her feet in and no matter what points you provide she will not budge from her sky is falling soap box stance. Rockets, HAMS and Torp are getting buffed after the patch that is plain as day as a whole skill will now apply to them. How she will not admit that this will help them I don't know. Just talk to the others in this thread that have a good head about them. All will be fine
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#4906 - 2012-10-19 18:56:29 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
and I fail to see the gallente Cruise Missile, Heavy Missile and HAM ships


That you do indeed.

Lachesis - Gallente T2 cruiser, combat recon


You should 1) learn to quote, 2) post your combat alt, 3) show how the Lachesis is of any significance for this matter here. I really hope you dont come back before you did that all.


for 1) a little helper:

Noemi Nagano wrote:

and I fail to see the gallente Cruise Missile, Heavy Missile and HAM ships which play a big role in PvP ;)


and yes, that was edited. But way before you posted ..


Please post your combat alt as well as Eve Kill does not have any stats on you
Lili Lu
#4907 - 2012-10-19 18:59:32 UTC
But Noemi, what exactly is your definition of "working"? No turret in the game can be used universally to kill any size ship at any distance within it's max range. That is what people were doing or at least trying to do with HMs, especially in pve.

Turret users quickly get used to knowing that their guns won't be able to do this mo matter what size, range, or tracking they have. They know they have to rely on neuts, drones, smartbombs, or some ew to try to fill in gaps and even then there will be some situations where they are without a counter.

Meanwhile I think HM users got spoiled. If it's a big ship hit it with Fury. If it's a small ship hit it with precision. And when neither of those are doing enough then try faction HMs. It seems from many posts I read on S&M too many people complain about their missiles not doing enough damage to small or fast targets, and forget they have a dronebay which is for that. Or forget they can fit a neut in a high (and that almost always demands some fitting adjustments usually for grid no matter what the ship, except for ac hurricanes which is being addressed in the op, lol). Or forget they could fit a smarty if they concerned about drone attacks. Or maybe I should fit a web or TD or such in a mid that will aide the ability of my missiles to hit something they can't take out very fast or at least keep the target from doing much harm to me.

Working is relative term. If the definition of working for you is to have something operate like HMs have been, forget it. That won't happen, or at least shouldn't happen again in the game.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4908 - 2012-10-19 19:07:49 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
and I fail to see the gallente Cruise Missile, Heavy Missile and HAM ships


That you do indeed.

Lachesis - Gallente T2 cruiser, combat recon


You should 1) learn to quote, 2) post your combat alt, 3) show how the Lachesis is of any significance for this matter here. I really hope you dont come back before you did that all.


for 1) a little helper:

Noemi Nagano wrote:

and I fail to see the gallente Cruise Missile, Heavy Missile and HAM ships which play a big role in PvP ;)


and yes, that was edited. But way before you posted ..


Please post your combat alt as well as Eve Kill does not have any stats on you


I did way before in this thread. I wont do all the work for you if you join late and dont do the job :) I posted one, although that one was more of a Winmatar toon. I already mentioned I am not personally affected by this missile thing, my other toon which I used for a while in lowsec PvP with mostly Drakes is inactive, found Winmatar to be much more fun. I can just switch. Still this is not good for a game IMO, if balance is one OP race and all others have to see what they can do .. and a signature weapon system like missiles should be represented in PvP. Atm it is, due to HML in Drakes. I feel like this will change, and I dont see it will for the better.

Btw, I never said GMP applying to Torps, HAMs and Rockets is bad. I said they will IMO need more than that to actually perform well in the ships Caldari have. Besides some soft stats received a NERF in those plans, for example explosion velo and radius and range ... you should study the spreadsheet and understand what those numbers mean.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4909 - 2012-10-19 19:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
MIrple wrote:
Please post your combat alt as well as Eve Kill does not have any stats on you


This is her main.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17718520

And talking about "Winmatar" superiority... Someone got schooled by Blue Republic.

Noemi Nagano wrote:
Btw, I never said GMP applying to Torps, HAMs and Rockets is bad. I said they will IMO need more than that to actually perform well in the ships Caldari have.


I think there was some talk about TE/TC (or whatever they would be called after the change of stats) affecting missiles, but for some reason they postponed that change... I wonder why...
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#4910 - 2012-10-19 19:17:06 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:


I did way before in this thread. I wont do all the work for you if you join late and dont do the job :) I posted one, although that one was more of a Winmatar toon. I already mentioned I am not personally affected by this missile thing, my other toon which I used for a while in lowsec PvP with mostly Drakes is inactive, found Winmatar to be much more fun. I can just switch. Still this is not good for a game IMO, if balance is one OP race and all others have to see what they can do .. and a signature weapon system like missiles should be represented in PvP. Atm it is, due to HML in Drakes. I feel like this will change, and I dont see it will for the better.

Btw, I never said GMP applying to Torps, HAMs and Rockets is bad. I said they will IMO need more than that to actually perform well in the ships Caldari have. Besides some soft stats received a NERF in those plans, for example explosion velo and radius and range ... you should study the spreadsheet and understand what those numbers mean.


Please don't insult me I does nothing for making your case it only makes you look little and petty. I have looked at the numbers. Yet the Rage are getting a change to Exp radius and velocity. Sorry I have not read every post in this thread I have read most of it though.

When the changes hit the test server we can take a look at how these changes will effect the game as that will be the best data not spreadsheets. If you have read this whole thread naught you would have seen countless people debunk the EFT warriors.

So please be civil in her and wait for the changes to hit SISI
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4911 - 2012-10-19 19:17:31 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
But Noemi, what exactly is your definition of "working"? No turret in the game can be used universally to kill any size ship at any distance within it's max range. That is what people were doing or at least trying to do with HMs, especially in pve.

Turret users quickly get used to knowing that their guns won't be able to do this mo matter what size, range, or tracking they have. They know they have to rely on neuts, drones, smartbombs, or some ew to try to fill in gaps and even then there will be some situations where they are without a counter.

Meanwhile I think HM users got spoiled. If it's a big ship hit it with Fury. If it's a small ship hit it with precision. And when neither of those are doing enough then try faction HMs. It seems from many posts I read on S&M too many people complain about their missiles not doing enough damage to small or fast targets, and forget they have a dronebay which is for that. Or forget they can fit a neut in a high (and that almost always demands some fitting adjustments usually for grid no matter what the ship, except for ac hurricanes which is being addressed in the op, lol). Or forget they could fit a smarty if they concerned about drone attacks. Or maybe I should fit a web or TD or such in a mid that will aide the ability of my missiles to hit something they can't take out very fast or at least keep the target from doing much harm to me.

Working is relative term. If the definition of working for you is to have something operate like HMs have been, forget it. That won't happen, or at least shouldn't happen again in the game.


I said that before, but will repeat again.

Is, in your opinion, using HAMs, Torps (in BS) and Cruises atm a viable way if you want to be competitive in PvP?

If you answer with yes (which I really doubt you will), then please name which ships, fittings and environments you have in mind. We could go into detail there then. And I am pretty sure it will be easy to find gunnery ships, which will do the job much better, and apart from that also do other jobs.

With "working" I mean "being competitive, if you chose to fit this system". Nothing more, but also nothing less. It has been pointed out before (and numerous times!) how the Drake can hardly be gamebreaking OP, because else everyone in lowsec would fly it (which is not happening). The HML/Drake is working in a role. And, agreed, no other medium gunnery ship is as good as the Drake in this role. But - there are tons of roles in this game, and looking just at medium and large ships and leaving ECM out I see no Caldari missile ship as top in any of them. Caldari rule with ECM, they are good in frigfights nowadays (was different for very long) and they dont completely suck in PvE, although others are better for quite a while now. And they have the Drake for medium/long range battles. Thats it for those who want to use missiles and Caldari. Dont you see the difference to other races yourself?
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4912 - 2012-10-19 19:21:18 UTC
MIrple wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:


I did way before in this thread. I wont do all the work for you if you join late and dont do the job :) I posted one, although that one was more of a Winmatar toon. I already mentioned I am not personally affected by this missile thing, my other toon which I used for a while in lowsec PvP with mostly Drakes is inactive, found Winmatar to be much more fun. I can just switch. Still this is not good for a game IMO, if balance is one OP race and all others have to see what they can do .. and a signature weapon system like missiles should be represented in PvP. Atm it is, due to HML in Drakes. I feel like this will change, and I dont see it will for the better.

Btw, I never said GMP applying to Torps, HAMs and Rockets is bad. I said they will IMO need more than that to actually perform well in the ships Caldari have. Besides some soft stats received a NERF in those plans, for example explosion velo and radius and range ... you should study the spreadsheet and understand what those numbers mean.


Please don't insult me I does nothing for making your case it only makes you look little and petty. I have looked at the numbers. Yet the Rage are getting a change to Exp radius and velocity. Sorry I have not read every post in this thread I have read most of it though.

When the changes hit the test server we can take a look at how these changes will effect the game as that will be the best data not spreadsheets. If you have read this whole thread naught you would have seen countless people debunk the EFT warriors.

So please be civil in her and wait for the changes to hit SISI


I really dont see how I insulted you with my posting! So you should maybe point out my so called insult ..
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#4913 - 2012-10-19 19:22:23 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Lili Lu wrote:
But Noemi, what exactly is your definition of "working"? No turret in the game can be used universally to kill any size ship at any distance within it's max range. That is what people were doing or at least trying to do with HMs, especially in pve.

Turret users quickly get used to knowing that their guns won't be able to do this mo matter what size, range, or tracking they have. They know they have to rely on neuts, drones, smartbombs, or some ew to try to fill in gaps and even then there will be some situations where they are without a counter.

Meanwhile I think HM users got spoiled. If it's a big ship hit it with Fury. If it's a small ship hit it with precision. And when neither of those are doing enough then try faction HMs. It seems from many posts I read on S&M too many people complain about their missiles not doing enough damage to small or fast targets, and forget they have a dronebay which is for that. Or forget they can fit a neut in a high (and that almost always demands some fitting adjustments usually for grid no matter what the ship, except for ac hurricanes which is being addressed in the op, lol). Or forget they could fit a smarty if they concerned about drone attacks. Or maybe I should fit a web or TD or such in a mid that will aide the ability of my missiles to hit something they can't take out very fast or at least keep the target from doing much harm to me.

Working is relative term. If the definition of working for you is to have something operate like HMs have been, forget it. That won't happen, or at least shouldn't happen again in the game.


I said that before, but will repeat again.

Is, in your opinion, using HAMs, Torps (in BS) and Cruises atm a viable way if you want to be competitive in PvP?

If you answer with yes (which I really doubt you will), then please name which ships, fittings and environments you have in mind. We could go into detail there then. And I am pretty sure it will be easy to find gunnery ships, which will do the job much better, and apart from that also do other jobs.

With "working" I mean "being competitive, if you chose to fit this system". Nothing more, but also nothing less. It has been pointed out before (and numerous times!) how the Drake can hardly be gamebreaking OP, because else everyone in lowsec would fly it (which is not happening). The HML/Drake is working in a role. And, agreed, no other medium gunnery ship is as good as the Drake in this role. But - there are tons of roles in this game, and looking just at medium and large ships and leaving ECM out I see no Caldari missile ship as top in any of them. Caldari rule with ECM, they are good in frigfights nowadays (was different for very long) and they dont completely suck in PvE, although others are better for quite a while now. And they have the Drake for medium/long range battles. Thats it for those who want to use missiles and Caldari. Dont you see the difference to other races yourself?


As most Caldari have not trained up gunnery skills they are missing out on 2 fine ships at the moment the Naga and the Rohk. These ships will start to appear more and more in the tops ships as people get the required skills to use them.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4914 - 2012-10-19 19:23:35 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
MIrple wrote:
Please post your combat alt as well as Eve Kill does not have any stats on you


This is her main.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=17718520

And talking about "Winmatar" superiority... Someone got schooled by Blue Republic.

Noemi Nagano wrote:
Btw, I never said GMP applying to Torps, HAMs and Rockets is bad. I said they will IMO need more than that to actually perform well in the ships Caldari have.


I think there was some talk about TE/TC (or whatever they would be called after the change of stats) affecting missiles, but for some reason they postponed that change... I wonder why...


nice you are able to post a combat toon of mine, now go on with the one of yours. Afterwards just 2 more tasks and you can come back again.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4915 - 2012-10-19 19:23:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Is, in your opinion, using HAMs, Torps (in BS) and Cruises atm a viable way if you want to be competitive in PvP?


HAM Tengu
HAM Legion
Sacrilege - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXWW-q4LaeI
SBs
Typhoon
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#4916 - 2012-10-19 19:27:07 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Is, in your opinion, using HAMs, Torps (in BS) and Cruises atm a viable way if you want to be competitive in PvP?


HAM Tengu
HAM Legion
Sacrilege
SBs
Typhoon


To be fair to Noemi

I have never seen a Sac gang. Does this happen in low-sec?
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4917 - 2012-10-19 19:27:56 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Is, in your opinion, using HAMs, Torps (in BS) and Cruises atm a viable way if you want to be competitive in PvP?


HAM Tengu
HAM Legion
Sacrilege - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXWW-q4LaeI
SBs
Typhoon


I fail to see any useful information, due to a poster with no combat alt. Thanks for not coming back :)
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4918 - 2012-10-19 19:40:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
MIrple wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Is, in your opinion, using HAMs, Torps (in BS) and Cruises atm a viable way if you want to be competitive in PvP?


HAM Tengu
HAM Legion
Sacrilege
SBs
Typhoon


To be fair to Noemi

I have never seen a Sac gang. Does this happen in low-sec?


To be fair, I said before the only viable Torp BS atm is the Phoon, although I dont think its actually great because of the Torps, but because the rest is so good even with Torps it does not suck. But ok, I can accept the Phoon answer. As will everyone hopefully accept the fact the Phoon is not exactly a Caldari ship.

In my posting I furthermore asked for "Torps (in BS)" which somehow makes "SBs" not a really smart answer. HAM t3s might be ok, didnt see them rolling too much though, and for sure not in real numbers. They also have a price-tag. Sacrilege I never saw owning when I spent most of my time in lowsec. In one week I have a bit more time and might be more active, so will report if I see any changes. Apart from that, the Sacrilege is also a bit un-caldari in my opinion ...

So we end up with 1 Caldari t3, 1 Winmatar BS, and 2 Amarr ships (t2 and t3) which are viable missile PvP ships in the opinion of some. Which does not really seem to object my first statement .. :)
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#4919 - 2012-10-19 19:51:19 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:


To be fair, I said before the only viable Torp BS atm is the Phoon, although I dont think its actually great because of the Torps, but because the rest is so good even with Torps it does not suck. But ok, I can accept the Phoon answer. As will everyone hopefully accept the fact the Phoon is not exactly a Caldari ship.

In my posting I furthermore asked for "Torps (in BS)" which somehow makes "SBs" not a really smart answer. HAM t3s might be ok, didnt see them rolling too much though, and for sure not in real numbers. They also have a price-tag. Sacrilege I never saw owning when I spent most of my time in lowsec. In one week I have a bit more time and might be more active, so will report if I see any changes. Apart from that, the Sacrilege is also a bit un-caldari in my opinion ...

So we end up with 1 Caldari t3, 1 Winmatar BS, and 2 Amarr ships (t2 and t3) which are viable missile PvP ships in the opinion of some. Which does not really seem to object my first statement .. :)


How would you fix Torps/Cruise. In my mind they should be similar to how Artys work slow cycle time Very High Alpha. Cruise missiles need to have there flight speed increased and there flight time nerfed.

I think one other point that needs to be made is although Cadari do have missile ships they have an even slit that favors hybrids over missile based ships. This could have changes with the new patch though.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#4920 - 2012-10-19 20:08:42 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:

Saying someone don't know what he is saying is hell of a lot easier than arguing I guess, but smart people don't care about *who* is saying something, but about *what* he is saying.

Each time you say "show your alt" or "you have no relevant experience", you are saying to us that you don't have an argument to oppose to us, so you are doing a personnal attack to discredit us.

That is very poor rhetoric.

Now, I already told why I think the buff to short range missiles will certainly be very effective. You only ever said you doubt it will be. Basically, you are affraid of losing your HML.

By the way, we already pointed out how HML won't ever be useless with these changes, and how exactly they are only "on par" (which mean, not really OP anymore, but still far superior to any long range medium size turret), and hence still very useful.

On a side note, "we won't have any other weapon to use" is both plain wrong (see short range missiles buffed + hybrid turrets) and absolutely not a reason not to nerf an OP weapon system.

But still, you will yell at will that caldari will be uterly useless if these changes hit TQ and support your assertion of "the drake is not OP" with the argument "a hurricane can defeat it with autocanon", which is a broken argumentation.