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Nerf Moaning Null Bears PLS
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destiny2
Decaying Rocky Odious Non Evil Stupid Inane Nobody
Looking for Trouble
#181 - 2012-10-19 08:26:02 UTC
Okay you want CCP to nerf Null sec whineing carebears. yet the one simple problem you havent yet thought of is the downside to your little rant,

The Null Sec bears as you call them would then spend their time in highsec suicide ganking highsecers freighters more then they do now..


Then after a month of it. You'd be comeing on here. whineing about something else.

Now a days Null is safer to make isk. then highsec is.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#182 - 2012-10-19 08:34:47 UTC
destiny2 wrote:

Now a days Null is safer to make isk. then highsec is.



I've noticed that people who say this rarely seem to make their ISK in 0.0

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2012-10-19 08:35:05 UTC
F'elch wrote:
I can't really understand all the hate for people who use high sec to make ISK. It seems logical to me that you would do it in the least risky way possible so you can do it quickly and efficiently.

Because it means people like me have absolutely no incentive to try to make isk or manufacture anything other than supercaps in nullsec, which in turn means nullsec is boring as **** outside of fleet fights, which in turn means there's more incentives to do things like what we're doing now, i.e. ice interdictions, freighter ganks etc.

This has been said time and time again, nullsec needs to get huge buffs when it comes to its manufacturing capabilities, and there also needs to be other economic incentives for people to move out of hisec as well. In short, buff manufacturing, invention, copying, research, offices etc heavily in nullsec, increase manufacturing costs and sales taxes etc in hisec, and as nullsec improves in sustainability, more incentives will be had by nullsec alliances to actually incentivize defense fleets, roaming gangs'll have things to do again, and hopefully a majority of the people who are currently griefing in hisec should find ways to keep occupied in nullsec instead of hisec.

There'll still be people who are deathly afraid of doing anything outside of hisec, and nobody'll be stopping them from doing exactly that; it'll just be less efficient to make isk there.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Davis TetrisKing
The Vendunari
End of Life
#184 - 2012-10-19 08:36:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Davis TetrisKing
I wish instead of 'nerf high' or 'nerf null' we had alternative ways to find a solution.

I would love a type of zone where the focus was on fighting over resources. Kind of a carebear version of pvp I guess.

Imagine a scenario where two people are in a system. There is no way for one to just lock the other down till they win (ie no scram) but they are allowed to shoot at each other to their hearts content. Instead of coming just to shoot people, people come there to rat. Two competing people come across a nice juicy looking officer. Both want the potential loot the officer has. Instead of one winning in the form of destroying the other player, they win by winning the fight to the point where the other warps off with his tail between his legs, and they win the loot.

Obviously a lot more thought would be required in regards to game mechanics (not allowed to loot while a red is on grid or something), but if med-sec (0.7-0.5 or something) was like this it may actually attract more pve to happen in places where there is some kind of player interaction.

I'm certainly not going to risk my hard earned BS in low with the current mechanics, it's not really risk, I'm just asking to die, but I might be willing to take it somewhere where I may get driven out by my competitors, but still have a chance of getting out at all.

Edited for fail typos.
TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#185 - 2012-10-19 08:43:06 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

This has been said time and time again, nullsec needs to get huge buffs when it comes to its manufacturing capabilities, and there also needs to be other economic incentives for people to move out of hisec as well. In short, buff manufacturing, invention, copying, research, offices etc heavily in nullsec, increase manufacturing costs and sales taxes etc in hisec, and as nullsec improves in sustainability, more incentives will be had by nullsec alliances to actually incentivize defense fleets, roaming gangs'll have things to do again, and hopefully a majority of the people who are currently griefing in hisec should find ways to keep occupied in nullsec instead of hisec.

There'll still be people who are deathly afraid of doing anything outside of hisec, and nobody'll be stopping them from doing exactly that; it'll just be less efficient to make isk there.


the tl;dr; of this^^

buff all the things I do!
nerf everything others do!


Hate to burst your bubble, but even if you got all of the above requested stuff (not even going to say it's overly unreasonable)
But in a month or two you'd be back crying for the removal of hi-sec towers displaying just how kneejerk all your suggestions are.

...

destiny2
Decaying Rocky Odious Non Evil Stupid Inane Nobody
Looking for Trouble
#186 - 2012-10-19 08:46:24 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
destiny2 wrote:

Now a days Null is safer to make isk. then highsec is.



I've noticed that people who say this rarely seem to make their ISK in 0.0



I dunno where your getting your info from but i clear about 2 bill isk a day provideing i get my 3 10/10's lol

still on average running anoms can still pull in 500+ mill a day.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2012-10-19 08:46:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
TheSkeptic wrote:
buff all the things I do!
nerf everything others do!

I do both hisec and null. I shoot people in nullsec, I make money in hisec. Care to try again?

(Actually, I'm bored in nullsec so I've decided to start shooting people in hisec. vOv)

TheSkeptic wrote:
But in a month or two you'd be back crying for the removal of hi-sec towers displaying just how kneejerk all your suggestions are.

I see absolutely no reason to remove hisec towers, they're a ***** to grind up the standings for, and all they do is provide a few extra boons. And they can be taken down in a war.

I'd love to see where you get the "just how kneejerk all your suggestions are". Do you have a list of "all my suggestions"? Care to provide that list?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#188 - 2012-10-19 08:47:01 UTC
TheSkeptic wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:

This has been said time and time again, nullsec needs to get huge buffs when it comes to its manufacturing capabilities, and there also needs to be other economic incentives for people to move out of hisec as well. In short, buff manufacturing, invention, copying, research, offices etc heavily in nullsec, increase manufacturing costs and sales taxes etc in hisec, and as nullsec improves in sustainability, more incentives will be had by nullsec alliances to actually incentivize defense fleets, roaming gangs'll have things to do again, and hopefully a majority of the people who are currently griefing in hisec should find ways to keep occupied in nullsec instead of hisec.

There'll still be people who are deathly afraid of doing anything outside of hisec, and nobody'll be stopping them from doing exactly that; it'll just be less efficient to make isk there.


the tl;dr; of this^^

buff all the things I do!
nerf everything others do!.

if you read his post, you'll note he says he doesn't do them, so your summary isn't very good

hth
TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#189 - 2012-10-19 08:54:22 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

if you read his post, you'll note he says he doesn't do them, so your summary isn't very good

hth


Read it again, he does not say he doesn't do them.

gg

...

Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#190 - 2012-10-19 08:58:23 UTC
destiny2 wrote:
I dunno where your getting your info from but i clear about 2 bill isk a day provideing i get my 3 10/10's lol

still on average running anoms can still pull in 500+ mill a day.


what's it like PvEing non-stop for 8 hours a day

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#191 - 2012-10-19 09:03:40 UTC
TheSkeptic wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

if you read his post, you'll note he says he doesn't do them, so your summary isn't very good

hth


Read it again, he does not say he doesn't do them.

I guess you're all bittered up on nullhate, so I'll spell it out explicitly, just for you:

I do not do the following in nullsec, because it's more effort vs reward than doing the same in hisec:
- Mining
- Ratting
- Manufacturing
- Inventing
- Research
- Copying

I do not do the following in nullsec, because the pay is ****:
- Salvaging

I do the following in nullsec, because it's what nullsec is for:
- Shoot people in the face and taunt them in local
- Run PI extraction

I do the following in hisec, because it's less effort vs reward than doing the same in nullsec:
- Mining
- Ratting
- Manufacturing
- Inventing
- Research
- Copying

I do the following in hisec, because the reward is worth it:
- PI Factories

I do not do the following in hisec, because the pay is ****:
- Salvaging

I have decided to do the following in hisec, because nullsec is boring outside of fleets:
- Gank mining barges
- Gank freighters
- Troll pubbies

TheSkeptic wrote:
gg

"gg" indeed. Care to try again?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#192 - 2012-10-19 09:08:22 UTC
Kinis Deren wrote:
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Yes I know what Soundwave said and I fully agree with him, your point?


My point is that my original points still stand, despite your efforts to negate my opinion with your e-peen waving ... now shall we get back to discussing the topic?

Fine. If you really want people to explain to you why they ask whether you've lived in nullsec before posting comments which really doesn't make sense or somewhat gives out the impression that you didn't know exactly what you're talking about, then ok.

Bounties are the biggest isk faucet in this game, yes, is it exclusive to nullsec? no, hisec rats generates bounties, lowsec rats generates bounties as well. Is there a way to stop the bounties stream from people farming/blitzing missions in hisec, gameplay-wise? no. Is there a way to stop the bounties stream from people farming anomalies/DED complexes/belts in nullsec? yes, plenty of them. See the difference here?

Nullsec rating is it safe or have no risk whatsoever? yes, it can be, but it comes from lengths of process and :effort:, people invading territories, organizing a bunch of stuff, diplomatic measures (propaganda, making friends, blue-ing friends, negotiations with hostile forces, etc.), logistic effort and defending/putting various measures to keep them safe (setting up safe POSes, organizing intel channels, etc.) and untouched. Even with all these, a single cloaky neut can put down an entire system, especially those without cyno jammers or within jump range from neutral/hostile territory; even with the risk of blues awoxing your ship (yes, this happens alot). There's also that "risk" when someone invades your territory; while it's true there are length of days when some people can do continuous isk farming, there are also and can be times when there are length of days where you need to evac, abandon your stuff (or move them), defend your space, redeploy (so you're further and further away from your pve home), etc. Does this happen in hisec? no. Is there any, even remote possibility that this could ever happen in hisec? no.

People ratting in capital ships does put out a ridiculous amount of isk/hr. Does this kind of stuff needs nerfing? maybe, but from my perspective, yes. But, even without any such nerf, they're risking even bigger and more expensive stuff. Don't believe me? look at our killboard and see how many ratting losses including capital ships for the past few months/years.

See now, people questioning you not because they/we/me are wagging our e-peen, it's because we're asking you whether you know this or not, be it with sarcasm or just a plain question. Stating your opinion about something is fine, but can you back your own arguments when people ask them from you?

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#193 - 2012-10-19 09:09:42 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
In short, buff manufacturing, invention, copying, research, offices etc heavily in nullsec, increase manufacturing costs and sales taxes etc in hisec


Lord Zim wrote:

TheSkeptic wrote:
But in a month or two you'd be back crying for the removal of hi-sec towers displaying just how kneejerk all your suggestions are.

I see absolutely no reason to remove hisec towers, they're a ***** to grind up the standings for, and all they do is provide a few extra boons. And they can be taken down in a war.

I'd love to see where you get the "just how kneejerk all your suggestions are". Do you have a list of "all my suggestions"? Care to provide that list?


By your suggestions, I was referring to the post I replied to... ltr

But... Do the buffs for null, then increase manu costs in hi-sec as you suggested above, and all you do is move manu from the stations to pos arrays.

So all you've really done is buffed null and increased sales tax in hi-sec.
Btw I'm not saying don't buff null manu - it needs it. Just pointing out that raising hi-sec station manu costs will not push manu into low/null, but into hi-sec pos's. At which point the next logical bad suggestion will be the removal of hi-sec pos's, or at worst the removal of hi-sec pos assembly arrays.

Oh... and also raised the bar for entry level hi-sec manu competition

+ gaining the required standings is trivial and can be done in 4-5 hours... less if you're really keen.

...

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#194 - 2012-10-19 09:11:13 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:
People ratting in capital ships does put out a ridiculous amount of isk/hr. Does this kind of stuff needs nerfing? maybe, but from my perspective, yes. But, even without any such nerf, they're risking even bigger and more expensive stuff. Don't believe me? look at our killboard and see how many ratting losses including capital ships for the past few months/years.

Ratting in capital ships are getting a nerf through the upcoming AI.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#195 - 2012-10-19 09:14:01 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Sarah Schneider wrote:
People ratting in capital ships does put out a ridiculous amount of isk/hr. Does this kind of stuff needs nerfing? maybe, but from my perspective, yes. But, even without any such nerf, they're risking even bigger and more expensive stuff. Don't believe me? look at our killboard and see how many ratting losses including capital ships for the past few months/years.

Ratting in capital ships are getting a nerf through the upcoming AI.

Yes, I know.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2012-10-19 09:15:24 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
TheSkeptic wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

if you read his post, you'll note he says he doesn't do them, so your summary isn't very good

hth


Read it again, he does not say he doesn't do them.

I guess you're all bittered up on nullhate, so I'll spell it out explicitly, just for you:

I do not do the following in nullsec, because it's more effort vs reward than doing the same in hisec:
- Mining
- Ratting
- Manufacturing
- Inventing
- Research
- Copying

I do not do the following in nullsec, because the pay is ****:
- Salvaging

I do the following in nullsec, because it's what nullsec is for:
- Shoot people in the face and taunt them in local
- Run PI extraction

I do the following in hisec, because it's less effort vs reward than doing the same in nullsec:
- Mining
- Ratting
- Manufacturing
- Inventing
- Research
- Copying

I do the following in hisec, because the reward is worth it:
- PI Factories

I do not do the following in hisec, because the pay is ****:
- Salvaging

I have decided to do the following in hisec, because nullsec is boring outside of fleets:
- Gank mining barges
- Gank freighters
- Troll pubbies

TheSkeptic wrote:
gg

"gg" indeed. Care to try again?


My point was you didn't actually say either way what you did or didn't do in each area. Tbh I don't really care, most of what you describe is normal, although there is something laughable that just stood out.

Lord Zim wrote:

I do the following in hisec, because it's less effort vs reward than doing the same in nullsec:
- Ratting


I can no longer take you seriously.

...

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2012-10-19 09:23:35 UTC
TheSkeptic wrote:
But... Do the buffs for null, then increase manu costs in hi-sec as you suggested above, and all you do is move manu from the stations to pos arrays.

If people absolutely wants to spend the isk and the effort to run manufacturing in a POS, go hog wild. I've no idea what you think of when I say "increase manufacturing costs", but I'm not talking about an 100% increase, I'm talking about making the act of manufacturing something actually cost money. Today it doesn't.

TheSkeptic wrote:
So all you've really done is buffed null and increased sales tax in hi-sec.

I've buffed null and increased manufacturing costs and sales taxes.

TheSkeptic wrote:
Btw I'm not saying don't buff null manu - it needs it. Just pointing out that raising hi-sec station manu costs will not push manu into low/null, but into hi-sec pos's. At which point the next logical bad suggestion will be the removal of hi-sec pos's, or at worst the removal of hi-sec pos assembly arrays.

This is a logical fallacy, based upon what I assume is an assumption on your part on how much costs would increase. Hisec manufacturing costs, today, are basically zero. I can build a BS at less than 10k in manufacturing costs over mineral value, this is nothing.

TheSkeptic wrote:
Oh... and also raised the bar for entry level hi-sec manu competition

No. Prices will increase, both because the costs of actually manufacturing it, and the costs of selling it will increase, but the manufacturing capacity of hisec will not be changed in any way shape or form. And manufacturing out of a POS is a cockstab of effort and monthly costs, but hey if people want to put their assets on the line to try to save a few isk, by all means go right ahead.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#198 - 2012-10-19 09:25:50 UTC
TheSkeptic wrote:
My point was you didn't actually say either way what you did or didn't do in each area. Tbh I don't really care, most of what you describe is normal, although there is something laughable that just stood out.

Lord Zim wrote:

I do the following in hisec, because it's less effort vs reward than doing the same in nullsec:
- Ratting


I can no longer take you seriously.

I take it you don't fathom the effort part of the "effort vs reward".

I can pull in a nice chunk of isk while watching a movie and paying next to no attention to the client, or I can make a bit more in nullsec while keeping diligent eyes on local and intel channels. Watching a movie means chances are I'll be inattentive for just long enough at just the wrong time, and lose my ship. Or someone is awoxing, which will set me back a fair change.

I can't help it if you've got an unrealistic view of how effortless and iskspewing it is in nullsec in comparison with hisec. vOv

And actually, it's been a while since I did hisec ratting as well, because market fuckery, PI factories etc are even less effort/reward.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#199 - 2012-10-19 09:33:36 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

I take it you don't fathom the effort part of the "effort vs reward".


Avg BS rat in null is what 1.2m?
Avg rat in hi-sec is what 8k?

If you'd rather troll around hi-sec and kill 150 rats instead of 1 BS in null go right ahead.

To me the effort far outweighs the rewards.

...

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#200 - 2012-10-19 09:38:46 UTC
TheSkeptic wrote:
Avg BS rat in null is what 1.2m?
Avg rat in hi-sec is what 8k?

So L4s are nothing but 8k rats? Interesting.

TheSkeptic wrote:
To me the effort far outweighs the rewards.

In hisec I can easily sit and watch a movie while doing L4s, because there's absolutely no risk. In nullsec I have to keep a constant vigil over local, intel channels and keep a lookout for awoxers, and if I lose a ship I've been set back a fair bit of isk, which in turn affects the effort/reward even more.

What do you think I'd rather do, spend a lot of time glaring at the local window, or glare at bouncing boobs and explosions on my second monitor, while getting more or less the same isk in return?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat