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What is the real problem people have with High Sec?
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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#161 - 2012-10-18 19:06:08 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Hi-Sec
I don't think there is anything wrong with hi-sec either. There is near zero risk and the rewards are near zero as well. If you manage to grind 20 mil an hour mining in hi-sec (even if its afk)... and you can grind 20 mil ratting in 0.0 in 5 mins, then the risk/reward balance is not out of synch at all. They moan about the ease of manufacturing and researching in empire... when they've got enough moons and wealth to setup their own stations and equalize the playing field in terms of cheap capacity.


I made 100 mil an hour last night doing incursions in a ship way to shiney to risk in null sec. you must have been in Hi-sec on the test server or something.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#162 - 2012-10-18 19:07:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Simetraz wrote:

Can people make more ISK/hour than you think they should (L4s etc)?

This right here is the core of the issue. Right now there is not enough of an increase in income for players who swap from running L4s to running anoms in null. When you include the inevitable dockings and pauses caused by neutrals in system, your isk/hr is fairly similar in high sec as it is in null. Who would choose null over high in these circumstances?

However the common solution (buff null sec ratting bounties by enough to make a difference, 40% of so) is not viable. Right now we are dealing with crippling inflation, the last thing we need is to increase an existing isk faucet. Instead, high sec bounties need to be nerfed by 10/20%, and null sec bounties need to be increased by a similar amount. This will make null sec ratting much more profitable in relation to L4s, which is appropriate for the increased risk you face there, without kicking inflation up another gear.

If you suggest this to your average carebear of the high sec variety, they instantly go into defensive mode, and start throwing around phrases like 'null sec zealot'. 'stop telling me how to play the sandbox', and accusations that everyone who isn't them is a goon. The hype soon spreads, and threads like this soon appear, much to the amusement of anyone with more than two brain cells.


Very well said, with the possible exception of boosting null sec income, isk is easy to make in null, it's jsut too easy to make in high.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#163 - 2012-10-18 19:09:59 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Hi-Sec
I don't think there is anything wrong with hi-sec either. There is near zero risk and the rewards are near zero as well. If you manage to grind 20 mil an hour mining in hi-sec (even if its afk)... and you can grind 20 mil ratting in 0.0 in 5 mins, then the risk/reward balance is not out of synch at all.
One problem: Apples to oranges. So let's fix that one.

“There is near zero risk and the rewards are far from zero as well. If you manage to grind 20 mil an hour mining in hi-sec (even if its afk)... and you can grind 20 mil mining in 0.0 in 5 mins, then the risk/reward balance is not out of synch at all.”… but since you can't, the risk vs reward balance is indeed out of synch.

Quote:
They moan about the ease of manufacturing and researching in empire... when they've got enough moons and wealth to setup their own stations and equalize the playing field in terms of cheap capacity.
By function of the mechanics, no. Neither the capacity nor the cost will ever be equal. As in: the game does not allow it to happen.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#164 - 2012-10-18 19:11:39 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
They moan about the ease of manufacturing and researching in empire... when they've got enough moons and wealth to setup their own stations and equalize the playing field in terms of cheap capacity.

lmfao

hey Asuka please send 24 billion isk so i can set up one station that has less functionality then one of the literally thousands of free stations in highsec?
i promise you rich rewards in scandium for your efforts


Damn vagrants.

Go grind some.

Why should I when I can access a station with higher efficiency and more slots for free in highsec?
Most players in New Eden have asked themselves that and decide to just do it in highsec.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#165 - 2012-10-18 19:11:49 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

I made 100 mil an hour last night doing incursions in a ship way to shiney to risk in null sec. you must have been in Hi-sec on the test server or something.


Ahuh.

In Incursions.... that spawn in all zones except whs. Real reason to pick on empire there.....

I'll bet you, if you moved that pimpmobile of yours out to 0.0 and ran some there, you'd probably make the same isk.

If you had the ballz.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Jim Era
#166 - 2012-10-18 19:14:22 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:


Ahuh.

In Incursions.... that spawn in all zones except whs. Real reason to pick on empire there.....

I'll bet you, if you moved that pimpmobile of yours out to 0.0 and ran some there, you'd probably make the same isk.

If you had the ballz.


But if you don't have balls, then why go to a place that requires balls when I can stay in a place where no balls are needed and still make the same?

Wat™
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#167 - 2012-10-18 19:14:39 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
They moan about the ease of manufacturing and researching in empire... when they've got enough moons and wealth to setup their own stations and equalize the playing field in terms of cheap capacity.

lmfao

hey Asuka please send 24 billion isk so i can set up one station that has less functionality then one of the literally thousands of free stations in highsec?
i promise you rich rewards in scandium for your efforts


Damn vagrants.

Go grind some.

Why should I when I can access a station with higher efficiency and more slots for free in highsec?
Most players in New Eden have asked themselves that and decide to just do it in highsec.


So go ahead and propose a change to those outposts.... decrease the capacity they have compared to their low-sec/nullsec counterparts, drop their efficiency...... hell.. I'd even give that a +1.

Doesn't change the fact that 0.0 has more value-potential given you can actually setup your own stations out there....

Give PI networks the ability to setup researching/manufacturing capacity and scale it so hi-sec sucks and null rocks. See that tone your singing change overnight...

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#168 - 2012-10-18 19:15:40 UTC
Jim Era wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:


Ahuh.

In Incursions.... that spawn in all zones except whs. Real reason to pick on empire there.....

I'll bet you, if you moved that pimpmobile of yours out to 0.0 and ran some there, you'd probably make the same isk.

If you had the ballz.


But if you don't have balls, then why go to a place that requires balls when I can stay in a place where no balls are needed and still make the same?


Touche.

Just remove incursions from empire. Watch me care.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#169 - 2012-10-18 19:16:20 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

I made 100 mil an hour last night doing incursions in a ship way to shiney to risk in null sec. you must have been in Hi-sec on the test server or something.


Ahuh.

In Incursions.... that spawn in all zones except whs. Real reason to pick on empire there.....

I'll bet you, if you moved that pimpmobile of yours out to 0.0 and ran some there, you'd probably make the same isk.

If you had the ballz.


ROFL you don't know who you're talking to do you. My null sec mach and tengu combo would run rings around any ratting ships you could bring. They just aren't blinged out do to the dangers of null sec.

And guess which zones the "incursion communities" live in (ISN, TVP, Din ect ect ect). High Sec Incursions only last a fraction as long as null and low incursions due to the massive amount of people who descend on them as soon as they pop up, you don't even have to open your journal, each community puts it's active systems in their channel's motds.

The point is I was responding to someone saying you make 20 mil an hour in high sec. My mission runner toon can do more than that in lvl 3s.....

it's too easy to make good isk in empire still.
Jim Era
#170 - 2012-10-18 19:17:33 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:

Touche.

Just remove incursions from empire. Watch me care.


I think hi income from missions/incursions/ratbounties should be nerfed.
I think the materials/ores set the price for themselves.
I live in hi but I make way too much money man. seriously. But it is not risk free. It may not be nonstop risk, but when a war dec comes, you are stuck to sitting in station for a week.

Wat™
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#171 - 2012-10-18 19:27:08 UTC

Jenn aSide wrote:

ROFL you don't know who you're talking to do you. My null sec mach and tengu combo would blah blah blah.....


You say that like it means something...

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#172 - 2012-10-18 19:30:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Bane Necran
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
Kara Vix wrote:
People can dislike Hi Sec mechanics and the players who live there all they want but I doubt that this game can survive without the PVE'ers subscriptions


People in hisec aren't even strictly PvE'ers. There's far more PvP in hisec than anywhere else in EVE..

Wrong


Nope.
Wrong:

Ship losses by security status


So they finally released figures on that.

The vastly higher number of ships being lost in hisec may not be entirely PvP related, but it still goes to show hisec is already plenty risky, and 'carebears' are fine with it. The idea there's no risk or little risk involved with hisec activities is a myth.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#173 - 2012-10-18 19:34:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Hi-Sec
I don't think there is anything wrong with hi-sec either. There is near zero risk and the rewards are near zero as well. If you manage to grind 20 mil an hour mining in hi-sec (even if its afk)... and you can grind 20 mil ratting in 0.0 in 5 mins, then the risk/reward balance is not out of synch at all.
One problem: Apples to oranges. So let's fix that one.

“There is near zero risk and the rewards are far from zero as well. If you manage to grind 20 mil an hour mining in hi-sec (even if its afk)... and you can grind 20 mil mining in 0.0 in 5 mins, then the risk/reward balance is not out of synch at all.”… but since you can't, the risk vs reward balance is indeed out of synch.

Quote:
They moan about the ease of manufacturing and researching in empire... when they've got enough moons and wealth to setup their own stations and equalize the playing field in terms of cheap capacity.
By function of the mechanics, no. Neither the capacity nor the cost will ever be equal. As in: the game does not allow it to happen.


Always a pleasure getting told off by you.

Since we're now comparing apples to apples without the presence of 0.0 ice interdiction that puts pressure on supply, lets compare oranges to oranges shall we?

Isk p/h Ratting in hi-sec vs isk p/h ratting in null.
6-luv to null.

In terms of stations.... be a darling and go find my post about scaling the value & # of lines and services in hi-sec in favor of null. Explain to me why null stations shouldn't get a boost?

Ball's in your court my dear.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#174 - 2012-10-18 19:42:47 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Since we're now comparing apples to apples without the presence of 0.0 ice interdiction that puts pressure on supply, lets compare oranges to oranges shall we?

Isk p/h Ratting in hi-sec vs isk p/h ratting in null.
6-luv to null.
Ratting in highsec (aka missions) ≈ Ratting in null.

Quote:
Explain to me why null stations shouldn't get a boost?
Explain to me why I should entertain a strawman argument.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#175 - 2012-10-18 19:48:25 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:

So they finally released figures on that.

The vastly higher number of ships being lost in hisec may not be entirely PvP related, but it still goes to show hisec is already plenty risky, and 'carebears' are fine with it. The idea there's no risk or little risk involved with hisec activities is a myth.


I don't know if you actually believe that or are intentionally lying. Did you read the link the guy posted, many of those high sec pve loses are in TUTORIAL Missions involving small, cheap ships.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#176 - 2012-10-18 19:49:45 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ratting in highsec (aka missions) ≈ Ratting in null.


Apples and Bananas

Tippia wrote:

Explain to me why I should entertain a strawman argument.


You dont have to if you can't be asked to. So I'll just ignore your prior observation.



Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
EvEa Deva
Doomheim
#177 - 2012-10-18 19:56:05 UTC
Most people in null give 2 ***** about empire, its a place to go buy some stuff when the market sucks.
Vanyr Andrard
VacuumTube
#178 - 2012-10-18 19:57:25 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Hi-Sec
I don't think there is anything wrong with hi-sec either. There is near zero risk and the rewards are near zero as well. If you manage to grind 20 mil an hour mining in hi-sec (even if its afk)... and you can grind 20 mil ratting in 0.0 in 5 mins



Is sustained 240m isk an hour, per account ratting in null sec, actually the correct figure, or is this just made-up numbers?

Real question.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#179 - 2012-10-18 20:01:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
Vanyr Andrard wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Hi-Sec
I don't think there is anything wrong with hi-sec either. There is near zero risk and the rewards are near zero as well. If you manage to grind 20 mil an hour mining in hi-sec (even if its afk)... and you can grind 20 mil ratting in 0.0 in 5 mins



Is sustained 240m isk an hour, per account ratting in null sec, actually the correct figure, or is this just made-up numbers?

Real question.


Of course not. Generalization. Point made. Then again, I know a few guys who jew anoms and sigs all day long way out there... they can afford to plex daily.

Real answer.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#180 - 2012-10-18 20:05:59 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Apples and Bananas
Nope. Shooting rats = shooting rats.

Quote:
You dont have to if you can't be asked to. So I'll just ignore your prior observation.
What observation was that and what does it have to do with your strawman?

Oh, and you can ask me to entertain strawman arguments as much as you like, but I won't because… well… they're strawman arguments and thus not mine, so it's really up to you (or whomever pulled them out of their nether regions) to do so since you invented them.