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Nerf Moaning Null Bears PLS
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Anslo
Scope Works
#81 - 2012-10-18 13:45:57 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
But that's kind of my point: Why should someone be immune from ship v ship PVP if they happily take part in other forms of "pvp"? It would be incredibly one sided. To flip it around, it would be like the ship v ship pewpewing players of 0.0/Low/WHs asking to be immune from traders and manufacturers and their aggressive market shenanigans, which dictate prices and influence availability.

"But I pay for this game, I should be allowed to play how I want! I don't want to have to deal with the availability of item x, making me fly to some different area where the manufacturer lives! I don't want to have to be a slave to the prices he and his manufacturing/marketing cronies set!"


Two things, first look back at my post and check the edited section's illustration.

Second, industry etc, I can see what you're saying here...but they have much less control over the pvpers than vice verse. Sure they could gouge their prices, but then competition would take advantage and discount there's. Worse comes tow orse you could just go to the source and force them to give you what you want. But "sohardcore" pvpers already have their own industry system set up, so either they dont need the high sec industrials, or they ARE the high sec industrials.

As for missioners well, look at my edited illustration above for my thinking on that.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2012-10-18 13:46:03 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Quote:
Sadly for you, this is a PvP game whether you like it or not. Deal with it.

And this is where the similarities end. No, eve is not a pvp game, it is a SANDBOX game. Ask the devs, ask the ******* CEO. Eve is and always was meant to be the most all encompassing sci fi simulation sandbox to ever exist. A universe within a super computer in the middle of iceland tended to by drunken programmers with a penchant for sociopathic activities.

Then again, it's a matter of perspective. One of the most prominent characteristic of a sandbox MMO is the open world pvp.

Even if we ignore that aspect; It also comes back to the definition of a sandbox by itself, if we take it to the simplest form, or say, sandbox by the meaning of everyone can do anything they want, then that, will almost absolutely certain will result in conflict, because it reflects the nature of human being, especially when people can do things that they won't be able to in real life. Be it direct confrontration (people shooting other people) or many other stuff, even metagaming. Conflict, is pvp; this is why when we say this is a sandbox game, it's almost in many ways the same as saying this is a pvp game.

The "devs" already answered these sort of question many many times; while they rarely say that this is a pvp game (for obvious PR and marketing reasons), they have clearly stated that Eve is not a non-conflict (pvp) or a cozy and comfy themepark game, where you can go and do stuff safely, without any intervention from other players. This is one of them :
CCP Wrangler wrote:
EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Hypercake Mix
#83 - 2012-10-18 13:49:12 UTC
GD would somewhat more boring without whining.

Gaming in general continues to shift away from the ideal playstyles needed to sustain in Null.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#84 - 2012-10-18 13:53:06 UTC
F'elch wrote:
OK, I mentioned them in passing earlier but let's bring them into the conversation, because they are related to the entitlement agruments being put forward.

PLEX.

How many of the null dwellers finance their PVP with PLEX? Or low / high sec dwellers for that matter?

I do not do this simply because I do not want to spend any more money than I already do on this game. I would rather grind a day or two to get some ISK than stick any more of my RL money into it. It's not a question of not having the money, before the usual "get a better job" brigade pipe up. I would just feel like a fool and a sad person if I spent any more money on this game. That's just me. I don't judge anyone who does.

But it has been said you should work for your ISK to earn your right and your time and your ships to PVP. I know a lot of people don't do this but sell PLEX instead.

I should also mention high sec trader alts, miner alts, mission alts of null dwellers. They all benefit from the reletive safety of high sec to fund their PVP lifestyle.


And no one with any sense is saying high sec doesn't have a place. Some of us believe "however" that high sec in it's current form isn't a great thing for the game as a whole, a game with an economy that NEEDS consumption.

EVE needs ships and mods to die, which is why it needs wormholes, null and low sec.

You keep talking about your personal choices. you like to pay with plex, you don't want to have to do CTAs ect ect. Those choices have only to do with you, not the rest of us, not the game. I and people like me choose to deal with the realities of the game good and bad.

This is why I mention your sense of entitlement, as if someone else is supposed to care about what you want to do.

You care about whats good for you, and that's fine, that's your choice even though I disagree with it and find it extremely short sighted, I choose to care about whats best overall for the game/hobby we all mutually enjoy (and the company that makes it, gotta care about them too lol), even in cases that might not be the BEST thing for me as in individual (for example, the incursion nerf was good for the game, even if it did screw my wallet lol, the FW plexing nerf that's coming will be the same).
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#85 - 2012-10-18 13:54:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Sarah Schneider wrote:


The "devs" already answered these sort of question many many times; while they rarely say that this is a pvp game (for obvious PR and marketing reasons), they have clearly stated that Eve is not a non-conflict (pvp) or a cozy and comfy themepark game, where you can go and do stuff safely, without any intervention from other players. This is one of them :
CCP Wrangler wrote:
EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.



We should all petition bomb CCP to get them to make this a pop up that appears on your screen when you undock any ship in high sec.........
Ryhss
#86 - 2012-10-18 13:55:01 UTC
Low sec is good for PVP. null is only good for politics....

I just turned into an egg, did I level up? I spent an hour trying to salvage a wreck, when in local a guy said "Stop it, this is my Tempest, I was AFK"
HollyShocker 2inthestink
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#87 - 2012-10-18 13:58:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
We arn't asking to nerf highsec, just buff the risk back up a bit. Get a bit of fun back into highsec.



Again why dont you have your fun in low/null? Why do you need to bring your fun to hi-sec?? If low/null is so much damn fun why do you need it in high sec??.


You guys are pathetic. All this Bull Sheet about risk vs reward is a failed attempt to get back what you have lost in hi-sec.

You guys want your easy kills back that you no longer have. If you wanted fair and FUN pvp surely to goodness you would stay in your low/null space and have your fun.

No you want to kill players that cant fight back in thier miner or mission fit ships.

You dont want to pvp in low/null where players are set up and fit for pvp. Why should you? why take a chance on getting your school yard bully arses handed to you when you can come to hi-sec and cry risk vs reward.

No one forces to play in hi-sec or any where for that matter.

The isk vs reward seems well balanced. Null players are making isk hand over fist. Moon goo is a prime example.

You want risk vs reward then lets apply it to pvp in hi-sec. You shouldnt be able to risk nothing to get easy kills in hi-sec.

Hi-sec is what it is. It shouldnt be your personal easy kill play ground where you can kill with no risk.
Anslo
Scope Works
#88 - 2012-10-18 14:02:30 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
And when did I say I did none of those things? That's my point, just because YOU can't find an efficient way to use your in game time (as evidenced by your posting habits) doesn't mean everyone is like that.


When did I say anywhere I was mad about you doing better than me in a game or complaining about not playing enough? I stated earlier that I'm quite happy where I am in the game right now. I casually play and enjoy what I do.

Quote:
You cling to the idea that you have to spend your whole life playing eve to do anything, when the truth is you simply fail at playing the game. Only small and shallow egos need to make excuses such as the ones you tend to make.

I'd like to see my quote where I said that. But YOUR comment did imply you have to be DEDICATED to a "hobby," and anyone else who didn't was a "second class citizien." America's best right here...

Quote:
I deal with more craziness in a day than you will in a year (both from the job and from being married) and even with 3 kids pulling my in 15 different directions I find time to enjoy my hobbies (of which eve is one) AMD sleep 8 hours a night lol. Sorry if you can't.

I do have time to sleep, as I don't play too much Eve. Nice assumption though. How is this even relevant to the OP?

Quote:

And who is trying to push anything? To each his own.

But to each his own doesn't alter reality. EVE is a pvp game. I, as someone who enjoys PVE (high sec incursions, ratting and exploring in null, and lvl 5 missions mainly) I understand that, and fit in well with the game. I also pvp, partly because I enjoy it, and partly because it gives me access to null, so even pvp is "paying some dues" sometimes.

I don't get people like you. Why play a game you fundamentally dislike?

I do enjoy the game very much actually. I just hate people like you saying some people don't deserve to play, have a voice, or are second class. If you enjoy an aspect of the game, good for you. But don't bash others for not enjoying it.

Also protip: I pvp as well. It isn't pvp I'm against, it's attitudes like yours.

Quote:
rofl, did I touch a nerve lol. I know you won't answer, but how old are you? I'm 38 personally, and you don't seem...quite adutl yet.

Racism lol , EVE PLAYER might be a job but it is a race lol.

You make yourself a 2nd class citizen by not participating in the main game (pvp). I'm primarily a pve player, but I don't expect CCP to change the game to suit me. Hell, im against the NPC AI changes even though it potentially makes my (and my null ratting mach) safer.

I simply belive in the spirit of this game/hobby and play ALL of it, pvp and pve, unlike you high sec only people. I don't care what you do in the game, simply pointing out the obvious: people like you are playing the wrong game anslo, and should be someplace you can actually be happy, like wow or Star Trek online.


I'm 24. I don't care what you think of my attitude, I'll say what I wish to say. If you find it immature or offensive, block me and save us both the energy.

PVP in the sense of pewpew is NOT the main part of the game. There is no MAIN part. It's a sand box. So stop referring to people who'd prefer NOT to engage in that as second class citizens. What kind of cop are you spewing this crap? Sickening.

If you want to play one way, ok that's great. It's a sandbox, you should enjoy it however you want. But you don't have the right to claim others to be SECOND CLASS CITIZENS.

Also lol at highsec only. Check my KB. I've had my fair share of pvp. I enjoy it to an extent. What I DON'T like is seeing people like you with your attitudes towards "undesirable" high sec only players. So no, I'll stay. I'm quite happy with the game. It's people like you I hate.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2012-10-18 14:04:20 UTC
The EVE is a PVP game is a typical example of a comment that (imo) is incorrect and excessively overused when trying to drive the argument home in these types of threads.

EVE is not strictly a PVP game... it's a multiplayer game, with both PVP and PVE content. It provides both player vs player and cooperative game play in a single universe.

Sometimes people want to get all up in someones face and PVP, other times they just want to PVE and chill with some bros in a more relaxed mode. whatever.

Just because someone doesn't want to play with you is no reason to go crying to the kindergarten teacher. Maybe they just don't like you? or you smell?

...

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#90 - 2012-10-18 14:04:59 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
This is why I mention your sense of entitlement, as if someone else is supposed to care about what you want to do.



Yup. This especially applies to those who wish (almost psychotically) to 'force' people into Low/Null etc and play only their way.

Remember "Mine with a Gun!" ?

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2012-10-18 14:08:25 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:

The "devs" already answered these sort of question many many times; while they rarely say that this is a pvp game (for obvious PR and marketing reasons), they have clearly stated that Eve is not a non-conflict (pvp) or a cozy and comfy themepark game, where you can go and do stuff safely, without any intervention from other players. This is one of them :
CCP Wrangler wrote:
EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.



I'd probably support this if they removed the ability to anchor bubbles directly on gates (50k+ away). If you want to lock down your null-sec isk printing pocket you should have to put a few hics/dictors on the gate.

Otherwise hi-sec would be the only place you feel worried logging in.

...

F'elch
Wall Street Trading
#92 - 2012-10-18 14:09:37 UTC
Anslo wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:

Are you illiterate? Honest question, because nothing I said was about can flipping. Let me give you a tip though, making something up and attributing it to the guy you disagree with, then dismissing him entirely based on that, is not good argumentative skills. I can count the number of times I've been in k-space, let alone high sec, in the last two years on one hand. The point I was making, which you may not be well equipped enough intellectually to grasp, is that all activities, even the dullest high sec carebearing ones, are PVP. Very different forms, certainly, but PVP none the less, and they have an effect on every player and every region of space. Demanding that you be able to take part in that regard but then be immune from all other forms or consequences is just pathetic.


If I may;

There's always been this argument popping up and honestly it can go either way. When he says pvp, I think he refers to ship v ship active combat. **** blowing up etc. Someone can argue whether mining a rock is pvp or not all day every day, but it'll go nowhere.

For the sake of advancing your argument OP, you should clarify that you refer to ship v ship pewpew boom combat as the pvp you are discussing.

Edit: As for his risk aversion argument, think of it this way. Let's say you were building a model, safely in your home. It's taken you a few hours to put this model...whatever together, and it may or may not compete with other people's models, but you aren't really concerned with them. You just want to build it and enjoy it. It's fun to you.

Then suddenly, someone busts into your house and, 10 seconds before the cops arrive, bashes you on the head, wrecks your model completely, laughs and yells at you, and then gets arrested and hauled off.

Does that seem right to you?

To clarify, I am talking about ships shooting at other ships.
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#93 - 2012-10-18 14:09:39 UTC
Ravnik wrote:

Ive been in low, and null and high. Its null sec players like you that think you are better than everyone else and think you can dictate to everyone else how the game should be? Why is that then?



If you had genuinely LIVED in Low sec and Null you'd know exactly what I'm on about, everyone else I've ever met does. You don't get what I'm on about and therefore, with all due respect, I don't think you've ever lived in those areas for any length of time, and definitely not successfully.

I don't dictate how people should play the game, I just recently said in a thread myself that I think there should be a place in EVE where players can run missions with basically no risk (and definitely no PvP risk). I also believe everyone should be gankable, not necessarily profitably, but if you are an asshat the community should be able to take revenge. However by and large if they don't like the thrill of PvP they should be able to avoid it if they keep their head down and don't stick their fingers up at anyone.

What I have said is that I don't believe players who choose what I'd call "the easy mode" should be rewarded as much for doing so. If you don't like PvP it's either because you're a pacifist or you find it a pain in the ass (by and large, if you just dislike PvP you're in the second group as you think it's hassle for no reward etc). Both these opinions are fine, but the game thrives off emergent game play and that is where you give players the most reign to make their own game and do some fascinating things.

Players do what is most profitable for them, you make it more profitable to be in null and low more players will go there, leading to a more interesting and vibrant game (in my opinion). That's not to say you should HAVE to go to either of these regions, but if you want high returns and high

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2012-10-18 14:19:40 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
We arn't asking to nerf highsec, just buff the risk back up a bit. Get a bit of fun back into highsec.



Again why dont you have your fun in low/null? Why do you need to bring your fun to hi-sec?? If low/null is so much damn fun why do you need it in high sec??.


You guys are pathetic. All this Bull Sheet about risk vs reward is a failed attempt to get back what you have lost in hi-sec.

You guys want your easy kills back that you no longer have. If you wanted fair and FUN pvp surely to goodness you would stay in your low/null space and have your fun.

No you want to kill players that cant fight back in thier miner or mission fit ships.

You dont want to pvp in low/null where players are set up and fit for pvp. Why should you? why take a chance on getting your school yard bully arses handed to you when you can come to hi-sec and cry risk vs reward.

No one forces to play in hi-sec or any where for that matter.

The isk vs reward seems well balanced. Null players are making isk hand over fist. Moon goo is a prime example.

You want risk vs reward then lets apply it to pvp in hi-sec. You shouldnt be able to risk nothing to get easy kills in hi-sec.

Hi-sec is what it is. It shouldnt be your personal easy kill play ground where you can kill with no risk.


I have done my share of suicide ganking; and quite frankly, I don't find it fun doing them at all. Probably when I'm bored and just feeling like doing something different, but that's it. So no, it's not about "easy kills", for a small portion of people who do pvp/ganking to make a living, perhaps, but I'm pretty sure most of them/us don't even care about kills being easy or hard or whatever.

You misinterpreted the reasoning behind nullsec players voicing and pushing the idea of hisec being "too safe". It's not so that we can suicide gank people in hisec (or grief people in hisec, which is against the EULA anyway). It's because, unlike some (or most) hisec players; a big portion of people who live in nullsec holds true to what they believe Eve is about, it's about the cold and harsh place, where conflict and destruction is the driving force of Eve. We're not afraid and envious of hisec people making more isk, but we're afraid of what CCP seems to be driving this game forward and further away from it's core sandbox concept. CCP is a corporation, no matter what we say, money is always the biggest drive for them; We will always voice and push to make sure CCP doesn't forget, about what Eve is. The only and probably the last, true sci-fi sandbox MMO currently in existence.

PS: Fyi, moon goo doesn't create isk.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#95 - 2012-10-18 14:22:28 UTC
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:


Players do what is most profitable for them, you make it more profitable to be in null and low more players will go there, leading to a more interesting and vibrant game (in my opinion). That's not to say you should HAVE to go to either of these regions...



Yup. My Amarr Fuel Blocks are worth the same whether manufactured in Low, Null, or High. The SAME.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Anslo
Scope Works
#96 - 2012-10-18 14:22:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Anslo
Sarah Schneider wrote:
It's because, unlike some (or most) hisec players; a big portion of people who live in nullsec holds true to what they believe Eve is about, it's about the cold and harsh place, where conflict and destruction is the driving force of Eve. We're not afraid and envious of hisec people making more isk, but we're afraid of what CCP seems to be driving this game forward and further away from it's core sandbox concept. CCP is a corporation, no matter what we say, money is always the biggest drive for them; We will always voice and push to make sure CCP doesn't forget, about what Eve is. The only and probably the last, true sci-fi sandbox MMO currently in existence.


And what if we don't care how you interpret what Eve should be? A lot don't see it that way, so stop trying to push it on us by bitching to CCP everyday about high sec. Stay on your side of the sandbox and we'll stay on ours.

Also games change and evolve, deal. If Eve is to survive, that whole outdated "so herd coooore" idea needs to be modified.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#97 - 2012-10-18 14:34:51 UTC
Andski wrote:
F'elch wrote:
If I tried to make all my ISK in low sec it would take a VERY long time to get the same money I would in high sec as you are constantly trying to avoid other players.


You realize that the solution involves making it worthwhile to go through all that trouble, right?

But it doesn't involve buffing null/low income - it involves nerfing hisec income because uninterrupted ISK printing is bad for the game.


NERFING IS THE PROBLEM Nerfing is a lazy way to fix issues when appropriate & thoughtfull buffs would incrementally solve issues with the least amount of screaming. CCP's current trend of creating blundering Monty Haul campaigns with huge nerf bats accross the knees of other profitable portions of the sandbox has made the forums into a screaming match with everyone scared thier income will soon be on the chopping block so they figure point CCP in the other direction by screaming:
"GO NERF THE OTHER GUYS SANDBOX DO NOT TOUCH MY SANDBOX MY SANDBOX IS PERFECT & BALANCED" So far the best screamers have been peeps in worm holes whom have not seen CCP touch thier golden gooses in over 2 years Blink
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#98 - 2012-10-18 14:35:06 UTC
Anslo wrote:
If Eve is to survive, that whole outdated "so herd coooore" idea needs to be modified.

What modifications do you suggest? Removing the 'so herd coooore' aspect of EvE will kill it dead.

Oh god.
Anslo
Scope Works
#99 - 2012-10-18 14:39:58 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Anslo wrote:
If Eve is to survive, that whole outdated "so herd coooore" idea needs to be modified.

What modifications do you suggest? Removing the 'so herd coooore' aspect of EvE will kill it dead.


No it wouldn't. It's the attitude I have a problem with. The elitism. Keep the pvp, keep it harsh, but nerf the attitude that Eve is spaceship v spaceship only pewpew, nothing else, and anything else is useless or boring.

Eve must evolve past spaceships pewpew only. Team Avatar is luckily working on just that. Screw the elitists and their cries of "NO BARBIE EVE IS HARDCORE SHIPS ONLY." That kind of stagnating attitude will kill Eve.

So keep the hard core, but expand what it encompasses and nerf the attitudes of the elitists that come with it.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Arkon Olacar
black.listed
#100 - 2012-10-18 14:42:35 UTC
Despite the endless stream of tears from high sec carebears, all most null sec players want to rebalance high and null is a x0.8 to be applied to all high sec bounties, and a x1.2 multiplier to be applied to all null sec bounties, to fix the relative risk/reward ratio between the two. I have no problem with people wanting to semi-afk run missions or whatever for isk, they just shouldnt receive similar rewards to people who have to deal with cloaky campingfags 23/7.

And yes those numbers were pulled out of my ass, but you get the general idea.