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FW: I-hub and system upgrades

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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#521 - 2012-10-18 11:09:00 UTC
The planet influence not being enabled is a known issue and we now know the cause.

For the unusual behavior of the bar I'd appreciate it if you could submit a bug report to help us get to the bottom of it.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
#522 - 2012-10-18 11:24:19 UTC
FW office and screen do not update in proper times. For example, system could be stable but still show contested in both screen/office but when you cap the plex it says "no reward for defending this uncontested system". Sometimes your one account might make it stable, you log another account to system 5 minutes later and show system on whatever % contested.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#523 - 2012-10-20 14:18:29 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The planet influence not being enabled is a known issue and we now know the cause.

For the unusual behavior of the bar I'd appreciate it if you could submit a bug report to help us get to the bottom of it.


Anyway FW is unplayable now, farming is only thing left, you can not capture systems anymore because contested levels seem to reset prepatch values on every down time.

some quality control plz.
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Doomheim
#524 - 2012-10-20 15:03:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
To be honest CCP should reset whole FW in Retribution.
They have screwd so much that it isn´t fixable without a complete reset and even a complete reset would´t fix all.
Really don´t know how a pack of human beings can do so many mistakes.
I remember the times Minmatar plexed amarr to hell while amarr couldnt plex because of rat ewar.
Only that first mistake (DEADLY mistake) doomed the amarr militia, not mentioning the other crap that happened.
Reset all.

edit: It is curious that all crap that happens is to the advantage of Minmatar militia. Doing defensive plexing now only to see it undone after downtime hurts really much. Especially if it is such a hard fought system like Kourmonen.
Going with this broken system of fw into retribution will be completely crazy. I already see the minmatar bust their own bunkers and flipping their own systems....
So I say: Reset fw with Retribution.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#525 - 2012-10-20 16:40:04 UTC
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote:
To be honest ....

Never did get why people use that phrase, it implies that everything said sans phrase is not honest ... Big smile

Reset won't happen as CCP would have to admit defeat (again). If it was to be then it should have been done when foreknowledge of impending changes was abused in the 2-3 week long Shakorite plexing frenzy up to Inferno when a single crew could flips as many systems in a day as they had manpower to burn bunkers.

- Reset shouldn't happen as there is glory and honour in clawing ones way back from zero, provided we are given the tools/mechanics to make such a thing conceivable .. which leads to

- Reset doesn't have to happen if CCP designs the system in such a way that being big and fat is detrimental to the general well-being of a militia (read: harsh as hell diminishing returns).

Time will tell if that last one ever comes to pass, initial offering aimed at rewarding being bloated (defensive LP farms) with practically no hope of any sort of comeback for the downtrodden .. hoping that the prolonged silence on that front means that it is being contemplated in earnest, although chances are that it will be implemented "as is" with only minor tweaks .. but here is to hope Sad
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Doomheim
#526 - 2012-10-20 17:10:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Quote:
Never did get why people use that phrase, it implies that everything said sans phrase is not honest ... Big smile

Reset won't happen as CCP would have to admit defeat (again). If it was to be then it should have been done when foreknowledge of impending changes was abused in the 2-3 week long Shakorite plexing frenzy up to Inferno when a single crew could flips as many systems in a day as they had manpower to burn bunkers.

- Reset shouldn't happen as there is glory and honour in clawing ones way back from zero, provided we are given the tools/mechanics to make such a thing conceivable .. which leads to

- Reset doesn't have to happen if CCP designs the system in such a way that being big and fat is detrimental to the general well-being of a militia (read: harsh as hell diminishing returns).

Time will tell if that last one ever comes to pass, initial offering aimed at rewarding being bloated (defensive LP farms) with practically no hope of any sort of comeback for the downtrodden .. hoping that the prolonged silence on that front means that it is being contemplated in earnest, although chances are that it will be implemented "as is" with only minor tweaks .. but here is to hope Sad


Yeah but so long as CCP doesn´t the reset also the new system won´t change anything.
Okay CCP has announced the changes and everybody knows what will happen:
Every militia will try to get with T4 or T5 into Retribution because of the new static system.
That means that Minmatar militia is actually f.... when amarr militia decides do bust all the vulnerable systems atm and upgrades short before the update.
But Minmatar already know this and are already starting to flip their own systems (!!!!!!!) to bleed them down to vulnerable, farm them and flip them short before update.
MADHOUSE. So in theory amarr militia should watch for bunkers in minmatar systems that the minmatar do not flip their own bunkers..... Totaly madhouse.
You can´t do anything with this completely broken system. Going into retribution with that crap means only that we will have furthermore a ton of crap.

Another example of stupidness:
Amarr militia guy tries to kill a plexer: Plexer knows rats do em and thermal so he is fitted against em and thermal. Most amarr militia guys use amarr ships and do laser dmg em and thermal. Means that plexer is perfectly fitted even for pvp and not that easy meal for amarr militia guy.

On the other side: Amarr plexer (I dont know any...) is fitted against minnie rats (kinetic explosive) and the minmatar militia guy knows this and uses heat.
Big advantage minmatar militia.

Retribution changes: Rats have more tank and less dmg.
Great idea CCP. Again advantage for minmatar militia. Rat shooting with minnie ships don´t use cap.
On the other side: Now the amarr militia guys need the more cap to shoot the rats with their lasers.
Don´t know how many times I had to leave a plex and chicken out from a minnie guy because I was already short on cap due to rat shooting. For example fleeing from a rifter in a slicer because cap was down to 50%. In a minnie ship I wouldn´t have had these probs.
Now the rats should have more tank so that I am even shorter on cap.
And so on. And so on.
The list of CCPs fails here could be endless....
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#527 - 2012-10-20 22:01:15 UTC
As long as we're throwing out pipe dreams with no possibility.....

How about a remake of the Amarr vs. Minmatar dynamic? I don't role play. I haven't come across role players. But subconciously a race that is:

Mostly White
Slave Owners
Religious Fanatics

is very unappealing. You can't design a much more straightforward bad guy. And while you can romanticize Cowboys vs. Indians, the latter made shirts out of their enemies' scalps and were pretty damn scary. Scramble the dynamic just a little bit.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#528 - 2012-10-21 00:25:54 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
And while you can romanticize Cowboys vs. Indians, the latter made shirts out of their enemies' scalps and were pretty damn scary.


Now this is a FANTASTIC proposal! I'll talk to Team Avatar about allowing players to use blueprints and transform Amarrian corpses into wearable clothing. EVE could use a new profession.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#529 - 2012-10-21 00:47:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
ShockedStraightUgh

Edit: that actually would be pretty motivating...
Hulkdriver003
Shadows Of The Future
#530 - 2012-10-21 06:24:34 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
As long as we're throwing out pipe dreams with no possibility.....

How about a remake of the Amarr vs. Minmatar dynamic? I don't role play. I haven't come across role players. But subconciously a race that is:

Mostly White
Slave Owners
Religious Fanatics

is very unappealing. You can't design a much more straightforward bad guy. And while you can romanticize Cowboys vs. Indians, the latter made shirts out of their enemies' scalps and were pretty damn scary. Scramble the dynamic just a little bit.


Okay so lets just throw out the entire story of EVE and make it all happy happy ponies and powderpuff.

EVE is EVE, if it offends your sensibilities go and play something else
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#531 - 2012-10-21 07:12:36 UTC
Minmatar militia has outstanding numbers. Amarr militia has very poor numbers. If you had actually read what I wrote rather then try to be snarky you would see I'm suggesting the Eve story get expanded. Have the Minmatar nuke an inhabited planet. Dirty up the clear cut dynamics. Make it darker all the way around.

It's a suggestion posted in the features and ideas forum of all places. Moron.
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Doomheim
#532 - 2012-10-21 08:33:36 UTC
@Zarnak Wulf and Hans Jagerblitzen:
Some of the best stuff I have heard for a long time!
CONGRATS!
Dr Sheng-Ji Yang
Doomheim
#533 - 2012-10-21 11:34:35 UTC
Another great idiotic actual example of this system and why it doesn´t make sense to go into update without reset:
Minmatar militia is actiually flipping their own owned systems for amarr to farm them down (Oyeman, Roushzar) and flip them short before update.
In theory that means amarr militia would have to guard minmatar Ihubs for not getting shot.
How broken, crazy and idiotic is that?????????
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#534 - 2012-10-21 11:47:54 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Minmatar militia has outstanding numbers. Amarr militia has very poor numbers. If you had actually read what I wrote rather then try to be snarky you would see I'm suggesting the Eve story get expanded. Have the Minmatar nuke an inhabited planet. Dirty up the clear cut dynamics. Make it darker all the way around.

It's a suggestion posted in the features and ideas forum of all places. Moron.

Although Gallante and Minmatar stories could be a bit more darker, I think the problem is more about winmatar than about amarr role play. SFI are quite attractive, quite a lot more than Imperial Navy Omen.
Tabiothi Talaenei
Royal Order of Security Specialists
#535 - 2012-10-22 17:45:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tabiothi Talaenei
each militia should have a state of militia wide effects on its own players. this state should be determined by the tier of the opposing faction, and should modify LP/VPs to encourage that factions militia as a whole to make the right specific types of tactical moves (like hitting i-hubs or d-plexing or whatever). if you nerf lps a bit in total, and modify the lp rewards based on the military needs of the faction awarding those lps, then militia pvpers and farmers will be making similar profit, both making moves that benefit their militia as a whole. this would keep the wars more balanced and heated. tier 5 could have economic incentives, but should be hard to maintain due to the hefty lp/ vp bonuses that the opposing faction will gain for their small vicories (look at any under-dog sports team ever, they win once, and theyre 'the best' at home). this would provide a slight uphill slant behind each empire, instead of a downhill one, and will keep them moshing mostly in the middle.
if you put this info on militia wide states in the menu that shows the tier of your militia, then players just logging in can see that state, read its details, and get a very clear idea of what that faction needs its militia to do. (and what it will be rewarding the most handsomely) But why stop at modified rewards based on what specific tactics are more effective? Even specific systems (like constellation jumps, or systems that link a ton of systems together,or systems linking to friendly hisec, perhaps) could have priority (and lp modifications). This way it would be much easier for pvpers to enjoy a more tactically oriented approach to both solo and fleet work, and would provide savvy enemies with counter-tactics that anticipate the tactical changes arising from a change in their enemies militia 'state'. Like if the minmatar knew the amarrians were going from a militia state that awarded extra LP for d-plexing to a militia state that awarded +50% lp for majors, +40% for the new cruiser plex, +30% for new t2/fac frig plex, and +20% for frig plexes, then the minmatar could intercept the influx of plexers, and get their LPs that way.
Also, a change in the amarr militia state would require a change in the minmatar militia state, but only the primary bonuses (or objectives) of these militia states would be universal and predictable. They could include 'secondary objectives (bonused)'. these secondarily bonused tactics might be dependant on how many systems the enemy conrtols at a certain upgrade level, or the proximity of their sovereign space to friendly hisec, or whether they control a pipe system, or the balance of ship kills in the last time interval. (you could even implement fw pvp missions related to these, like: go to auga, capture a medium plex, and kill a ship, you have 2 days)
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
United Caldari Space Command.
#536 - 2012-10-23 00:08:21 UTC
50% Loyalty point reduction for Tier 1 seems to penalize the losing side a bit too much in my opinion. It reduces the incentive to actually Plex and gives them less base loyalty points to actually invest in upgrading systems and pushing forward in order to be competitive.

The primary thing I would like to note on though is to diversify the plex button in order to facilitate different engagement ranges. For example we have "Outposts and Installations" - An outpost could have a button that is essentially 10km away from warp in, encouraging short range tactics such as brawling boats. Where as an Installation could have a button that is 40-50km away. This way we are able to encourage the use of both long range tactics as well as short range tactics. Without polarizing the advantage on solely on type of play style.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
United Caldari Space Command.
#537 - 2012-10-23 00:13:33 UTC
I also firmly agree with Vyktor Abyss that if we want to encourage low sec population in relevance to faction warfare upgrades. We should do so in a more creative fashion. I do like the 20% fuel cost reductions and the slot bonus, but it allows industrialists to simply use the station for manufacturing and then sell the goods in low sec. Without actually being present outside of the station at all.

Instead we should improve what type of exploration sites are available, provide Cosmos agents (Agents that improve faction standing maybe?) as he had suggested or even providing an abundance of new ores to upgraded systems. This would encourage industrialists to be present outside of the station and actually put their boots down on the ground.

One thing I would like to note on, is FACTION STANDINGS - Once you get to full rank you no longer gain standing for participating in faction warfare. I would say that participation should allow us to invest loyalty points or have our activity rewarded with a constant boost to standings. This would allow individuals to realistically change factions or use faction warfare as a mechanic to improve their standings. (The rank bonus is still very generous, but it would be nice to see a consistent reward and bonus, not a one time bonus).
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#538 - 2012-10-23 07:06:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Milton Middleson
I’ve been thinking a bit more about the proposed system upgrades recently (I realize the thread has moved away from this, but whatever). What strikes me is that many of them are unlikely to hold much appeal for Faction Warriors because they don’t provide something useful and usable, even indirectly. The bonus manufacturing slots would be great for nullsec, but the warzone is not exactly suffering from a critical shortage of assembly lines. The science slots are better, since they provide something we are short on, but the scarcity of ME and Copy slots means that militia inventors are going to be competing with everyone and their dog to take advantage of the bonus slots, so that is basically a wash in terms of usability. The repair cost and market tax reduction are a step in the right direction, but not a very big step, since these are both fairly minor in the grand scheme of things. The clone costs, POS fuel, and manufacturing time bonuses are spot on, because they each give something that is useful, something that we did not have an abundance of before, and which is mostly non-rivalrous (which in turn means you get to enjoy the benefits of the upgrades you purchased. So they're good, but I don't know if they're good enough to merit the investment they demand.

The key thing is that desirable upgrades must give something we didn’t already have, must have benefits which are mostly non-rivalrous, and must be significantly useful.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#539 - 2012-10-23 09:10:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Bring back the cyno jammer, if polished enough to be shot down by neutral third parties. Fanfest taught us it is a very tricky move, so we want to hear from all interested parties here


I think it would be a good idea and good for low sec as a whole if you allowed faction warfare people to control cynoing. People that have a lot of numbers but don't have the isk/skills to field capital ships will have a place to participate in large fleet fights without the fear of being hot-dropped by some board null sec corp.

However (and this is important) only people in faction warfare should be able to control cyno jamming in low sec. If people who are not in faction warfare want to be able to use a cyno in a certain system, they have three options - 1) Join FW, 2) negotiate with the controlling faction and 3) pay the enemy faction to disrupt the cyno jammer.

Also, with regards to the industry buff, no sales tax or broker fees would encourage me to trade in low sec.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#540 - 2012-10-23 11:07:50 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

I'm not so sure about lowering sec status of systems, but what I'd LOVE to see is an increase in taxation or something along those lines, as a penalty for a faction falling behind. What if each faction had a "war acquisitions" initiative where they needed more income to fuel their front line fighters when the war wasn't going their way? Imagine if Faction Warfare could influence Jita's pricing? That tax could even be used as extra direct incentive for those pilots enlisting in the militia that was falling behind, like a "hazard pay" to encourage militia fighters to stay in the game when the chips are down and give them the resouces they need to keep going.

This is all very rough and brainstormy of course, but that's along the lines of what I'd like to see. A system that gives real value and meaning to the war in the context of the entire game, while making the system a bit more elastic in terms of enrollment incentives for a faction getting steamrolled by another.


Yeah, faction warfare should really have an effect on all faction space. If the Gallente FW guys are not pulling their weight, people in Gallente highsec should feel it through decreased mission payouts and higher market taxes. This would mean that everyone would have a vested interest in the state of their factions.