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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#4761 - 2012-10-16 19:29:49 UTC
Mr Floydy wrote:
Chimera? notsureifserious

Only any good if you pimp fit it and are in a Pulsar wormhole.


Awesome to move your ships to the front with a nice Ship hangar bay. Nice corp hangar and decent cargo bay to add more stuff to front market and make some iskies.

Think about it like a rorkal but different.Lol

brb
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4762 - 2012-10-16 19:31:39 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:


Fozzie, really: listen to this guy. Thats whats the feeling for most people who like to fly Caldari. I know there are some who are different. But really most *I* know feel exactly like that. Doesnt mean all of them will stick to Caldari, some just adapt and crosstrain... But its just pointless to treat an entire race like that. And when was the last time someone chose to crosstrain to Caldari? Ever? (if it was not just the ship skills for Gurista or Sansha ships ...)


still spouting bs

ppl cross train to caldari for merlins, drakes, tengus, rokhs, scorps, crows, falcons, basilisks, nagas.

ppl cross train to minmatar for less


Some of them - accepted. Caldari logis and Caldari ECM are decent. Caldari frigs are ok too. Naga and Rokh seem to be pretty popular, but never thought one would actually crosstrain for them. And dont forget ... they are gunnery ships, and whats the main point about this all? Caldari Missile PvP. So ..


Jaguar, Wolf, Hurricane and Nado. 4 reasons for me to fly Minmatar. The race you call "OP" and "race with superior damage projection".
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#4763 - 2012-10-16 19:38:47 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:


Fozzie, really: listen to this guy. Thats whats the feeling for most people who like to fly Caldari. I know there are some who are different. But really most *I* know feel exactly like that. Doesnt mean all of them will stick to Caldari, some just adapt and crosstrain... But its just pointless to treat an entire race like that. And when was the last time someone chose to crosstrain to Caldari? Ever? (if it was not just the ship skills for Gurista or Sansha ships ...)


still spouting bs

ppl cross train to caldari for merlins, drakes, tengus, rokhs, scorps, crows, falcons, basilisks, nagas.

ppl cross train to minmatar for less


Some of them - accepted. Caldari logis and Caldari ECM are decent. Caldari frigs are ok too. Naga and Rokh seem to be pretty popular, but never thought one would actually crosstrain for them. And dont forget ... they are gunnery ships, and whats the main point about this all? Caldari Missile PvP. So ..


it wasnt a completely comprehensive list: hawk and condor should be there too. im just doing this from the top of my head.

there are 3 turret ships there, 1 logi, 2 ecm and now 5 missile ships.

is it also worth mentioning there are no medium turret ships there? and 2 medium launcher ships? since this is about HML's versus medium LR turrets so...

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4764 - 2012-10-16 20:21:48 UTC
Irregessa wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Borascus wrote:

If you need 3 or more drakes to take it down missiles are too weak.



I'll throw you a question then.

Why exactly do you think the other three races use battleships over level 3? I'll give you three guesses.


That is 2 guesses too many, though the reason is that the drake has a tremendous tank compared to the other t1 BC.






Guess again, myrm and cyclone easily match a Drake's tank.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4765 - 2012-10-16 20:38:10 UTC
Caldari problems:

Phoenix. Largely pointless. Needs a reason to be flown in a world of blap dreads, armour capitals and lol-OP Moros.
Chimera. Largely pointless. Needs a reason to be flown in a world of Archon and armour capitals.

Cruise. Poor DPS, poorish application of DPS, too slow. Offers no meaningful DPS advantage in a world where ranges beyond 150 km are of little use. Totally pointless.

Raven. Too flimsy, maybe another medslot? There is a wider problem with the lack of utility of BS in small-gang environments though. Not easy to fix.

Vulture. Lacks HP relative to the Damnation, partially obsoleted by link T3s, relatively limited call for shield ganglinks because of the importance of armour in heavy gangs and mobility in smaller gangs.

ECM. Broadly balanced but an utterly terrible mechanic. Needs a thorough rework
Cerberus and Eagle. Obsoleted by other ships, no idea what to do here.
Nighthawk. Awful PG. Largely pointless - partially because of Drake, partially because Field CS have no actual role.

Many of these ships suffer from the silly imbalances between armour and shield in different types of fleet - tricky to fix.
The HACs need a role.
All CS need a rework.
Cruise and ECM need a thorough rework.
Lili Lu
#4766 - 2012-10-16 20:52:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
OT Smithers wrote:
I will be brief.

This issue is a whole lot bigger than the Drake. The perception CCP has given many Caldari players is that it is always Hot-Drop O'Clock when it comes to sticking it to them. Again, it’s not about the Drake, it’s about the entire picture.

You need to actually FIX some of the many broken Caldari ships.

They need to be good enough that people from other races wish, if only briely, that they had trained to fly them. Right now that’s not the case. Ever. Even with this winter update. The opposite is always true. No one who can fly the Vagabond wishes they could trade it for the Cerberus. No one is looking at the new Rupture or Vexor and wishing they could fly the new joke Moa instead. No one wants to swap their battleship, any battleship, for a Raven. No one is bummed because they are stuck flying the crappy Thrasher. No one has ever said, “Man that Nighthawk sure is a sweet ship compared to this piece of junk Sleipner.” Hell, the new Minmatar EWAR cruiser will be a better missile boat than the Caldari missile boat. How silly is that? The problem isn’t the new Bellicose, it’s the way you build Caldari ships. It’s CCP’s Caldari standard which seems to be:

Aspire to mediocrity…then fail to hit the mark.

That’s what you guys have got to change. The Drake might be overpowered, but worrying about that is like trying to figure out how much to leave for a tip when you left your empty wallet at home.

What a load of whine. Ok let's examine Caldari options from the ships most used for kills in the game, from the eve-kill top 20. http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

Minmatar 10 + half /20
Caldari has 5/20
Amarr has 3/20
Gallente has 1 + half/20

Caldari is hardly without options from that list. And that is just this month's stats. In previous months Merlins and Condors were in there.

Amarr has Zealots, Abaddons, and Oracles. The smaller two of the three ships have not been consistently in there (at least not in the positions they currently sit thanks to the new plates).

And then there's Gallente. Quite a lot of months (years even) there had been no representation other than the angel ships (half gallente but using projectile weapon skills).

So if anyone could post the whine you did it would be Gallente centric players. Funny though, they approach nowhere near the level of whine and sense of entitlement on the forums as Caldari centric players have. And ever since I've been playing this game Caldari have had a lock on pve. A lock which got even worse with the introduction of wormhole pve content that heavily favored Caldari ships.

Your complaint is not supported.
Borascus
#4767 - 2012-10-16 21:01:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Borascus
Onictus wrote:
Borascus wrote:

If you need 3 or more drakes to take it down missiles are too weak.



I'll throw you a question then.

Why exactly do you think the other three races use battleships over level 3? I'll give you three guesses.


I did this mission with tech 2 on a Hyperion.


The spawn in the mission has a large tank and I'm basing the test on 3 players for that COSMOS mission which is higher than any of the other missions; which can be solo'd.

It's a "missile rebalance" statistically speaking, testing heavy missiles there is a very good way to see if players will get a fair experience.

Reasons: The COSMOS Mission is a *0 standing to acquire mission*, meaning day one players could stumble upon it. They would then complete the first mission, and find out they can't complete the second mission *after accepting the mission*.

It would be a penalty. Finding one player to help in the early days of an EVE career is easy, finding two (that will work together) straight off the bat isn't.

When I ran it, the reward was a shield implant that had a buy order of 100mil (it can be any of several shield implants ranging from 1mil-100mil).

Its a fair test.

Although, using buffed torpedoes on a raven would probably be an easier solution, its also easier to compare low-skill drake pilots together in a batch to see if they can work together and pull off the same for a missile rebalance
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4768 - 2012-10-16 21:22:35 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


Jaguar, Wolf, Hurricane and Nado. 4 reasons for me to fly Minmatar. The race you call "OP" and "race with superior damage projection".


Where is the link for your combat alt? Go play EFT again Jorma.

Mael, Cyclone, Pest, Phoon, Vaga, Rifter, Rupture .. they are all viable. I dont say they are all OP. But its OP to have so many ships which are working, and look at how Rupture will get buffed.

Of those 5 missile ships I see only 2 medium hulls, and no large. Frigs are already balanced, no one questioned that. We are concerned about how it will end above frig size.
Lili Lu
#4769 - 2012-10-16 21:34:58 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Where is the link for your combat alt? Go play EFT again Jorma.

Maybe he'll link someone like you did but not post with that character. Still waiting for you to post with a character that has some pvp record. Linking is not enough. And, no, I'll still call you on your bullshit arguments even if you do.Lol
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#4770 - 2012-10-16 22:08:49 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:


Mael, Cyclone, Pest, Phoon, Vaga, Rifter, Rupture .. they are all viable. I dont say they are all OP. But its OP to have so many ships which are working, and look at how Rupture will get buffed.


caldari have plenty of working ships, and look at the buffs the moa and caracal are getting.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4771 - 2012-10-16 22:33:30 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


Jaguar, Wolf, Hurricane and Nado. 4 reasons for me to fly Minmatar. The race you call "OP" and "race with superior damage projection".


Where is the link for your combat alt? Go play EFT again Jorma.

Mael, Cyclone, Pest, Phoon, Vaga, Rifter, Rupture .. they are all viable. I dont say they are all OP. But its OP to have so many ships which are working, and look at how Rupture will get buffed.

Of those 5 missile ships I see only 2 medium hulls, and no large. Frigs are already balanced, no one questioned that. We are concerned about how it will end above frig size.



LOL

Seriously that is the best you got?
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#4772 - 2012-10-16 23:16:34 UTC
Noemi Nagano has already lost the war. CCP will implement the current iteration changes. Good fight Noemi Nagano!

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#4773 - 2012-10-17 00:07:15 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:


Mael, Cyclone, Pest, Phoon, Vaga, Rifter, Rupture .. they are all viable. I dont say they are all OP. But its OP to have so many ships which are working, and look at how Rupture will get buffed.


caldari have plenty of working ships, and look at the buffs the moa and caracal are getting.


Moa's been nerfed; it's slower than all of the other offensive cruisers and far easier to kite than it is now. And it's still got an awful slot layout compared to everything else with a useless highslot.

Caracal's going to be excellent, however. Especially with the addition of the GMP skill bonus and the easier fitting.

And being able to fit a web, if it so chooses. :\
Starr FFox
Boring Co.
#4774 - 2012-10-17 01:00:58 UTC
Ok lets go with cane arty thebn still far supirior to drakes current lmedium range dp output. I guess ccp wants caldari to do nothing other than missions and mining. And moron that says im crying lol is that the best you could do? Really?? So disagreeing with a change in the game is crying? As ibsaid caldari can ecm in pvp and that about what this climits them to. I personally dont care if i respec my caldari pilot not like it willlong. Im just pointing out the biased vs caldaris. Take it how u want and go ahead and talk about whining again.... Its a game not worth the energy of whin. But thats all your type does i bet if i searched the word whining it would point to your pists lol. Like i said before its genocide in my eyes nerfing an alrady poor fighting race is biased for sure.not like all these elite changes will makanyone quit the game or anythin. Kinda sux how would u like spending months of traing on a weapon that is now next to useless. Just saying you must not fly missile boats haha
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4775 - 2012-10-17 01:53:32 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:


Mael, Cyclone, Pest, Phoon, Vaga, Rifter, Rupture .. they are all viable. I dont say they are all OP. But its OP to have so many ships which are working, and look at how Rupture will get buffed.


caldari have plenty of working ships, and look at the buffs the moa and caracal are getting.


Moa's been nerfed; it's slower than all of the other offensive cruisers and far easier to kite than it is now. And it's still got an awful slot layout compared to everything else with a useless highslot.

Caracal's going to be excellent, however. Especially with the addition of the GMP skill bonus and the easier fitting.

And being able to fit a web, if it so chooses. :\

How was it nerfed? It's faster than before with more fitting and more base HP.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#4776 - 2012-10-17 02:28:38 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Aglais wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:


Mael, Cyclone, Pest, Phoon, Vaga, Rifter, Rupture .. they are all viable. I dont say they are all OP. But its OP to have so many ships which are working, and look at how Rupture will get buffed.


caldari have plenty of working ships, and look at the buffs the moa and caracal are getting.


Moa's been nerfed; it's slower than all of the other offensive cruisers and far easier to kite than it is now. And it's still got an awful slot layout compared to everything else with a useless highslot.

Caracal's going to be excellent, however. Especially with the addition of the GMP skill bonus and the easier fitting.

And being able to fit a web, if it so chooses. :\

How was it nerfed? It's faster than before with more fitting and more base HP.


It's range bonus is gone, it's the slowest combat cruiser (and since combat cruisers are slower than attack cruisers, that makes it the base-slowest direct combat ship), it's slot layout is unchanged (read: idiotic, seeing as the Vexor and Rupture both also have four medslots now as well). So it's going to have a wealth of fitting problems compared to the others, it's easier to kite (unless you slap on rails; it seems that CCP is trying to deny the Moa the ability to be anything but a sniper) and pretty much just has being fittable as almost-bait going for it, unless it can get a fifth medslot, in which case I can see it getting that much more competitive.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4777 - 2012-10-17 04:45:01 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Where is the link for your combat alt? Go play EFT again Jorma.


No need to go back to EFT. I don't even use EFT btw. Unlike someone else, I actually fly all T1 battlecruisers and use all weapon systems.

Starr FFox wrote:
Ok lets go with cane arty thebn still far supirior to drakes current lmedium range dp output.


When shooting stationary target at 70 km:
- 720mm Cane does 275 dps with Tremor
- HML Drake does 462 dps with Fury

When shooting moving target at 9 km:
- 720mm Cane does 432 dps with Quake if it can hit the target
- HML Drake does 462 dps with Fury
xShapex
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4778 - 2012-10-17 06:00:49 UTC
Dont forget about the -75% tracking when u use T2 longrange weapon longrange ammo.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4779 - 2012-10-17 07:55:45 UTC
TheLast Poofighter wrote:
Onictus wrote:
TheLast Poofighter wrote:
I am not sure I understand the reasoning behind making the missile platform behave like a turret platform. My understanding is that there are two separate skill trees as they are intended to behave and perform differently - I think most of the changes proposed would be widely accepted if the secondary skills of missiles were reimbursed and merge gunnery and missile skill trees to a "turrets" skill tree. As it would stand now this just seems like a huge hit to newer players who may have not cross trained for both disciplines (guns and missiles that is) and to one specific race that really isn't geared for pvp anyway.


Why? Missiles are applicable to all four races, as are the turret support skills. New players that AREN'T Caldari have to deal with this anyway. I'm an Angle pilot given the choice, I much prefer gallente and matar. However, I can also fly all four races BS and down with T2 weapons. The newer "caldari" players get to share the experince of newer Amarr, Gallente and Matari players and crosstrain.


TheLast Poofighter wrote:

Also I don't understand the reasoning of "defender missiles take up too much cpu so to fix a problem we are going to make everything behave the same." While I know that isn't a direct quote, it was kinda how it came across. Is it that difficult to fix a great idea that works very well for npc battle ships in level 4? It seems like there really could be all kinds of creative solutions and the route taken was rather bland and boring. Defender pulses, defender arrays, robo-nano-dragons, cloaked defender missiles - really, you have a whole universe of creative options here. I have always appreciated the complex Paper, Rock, Scissors nature of Eve but this change just kinda seems like we all get a rock. My rant is finished I am going to watch a Charlie Brown Halloween and wait for the extended DT to finish.


Their issue with defenders is hardware resources. For the rest of us smartbombs do fine.

TheLast Poofighter wrote:

PS - My daughter who has Down Syndrome is an avid player of Eve. I thought it would be a good idea for her to take up mining to prepare her for potential disappointments - however, she took more to POS management. She like to set up complex designs and shapes for hours on end. Her POS is large Amarr tower which she like to call "the Broken Potato Peeler." Would it be possible for the anchoring/un-anchoring and onlining/offlining times to get buffed?


You have no idea how most of us wish that lol



I think I stated why but here is another reason - because missle apocs, maels, hyperions and megathrons are just silly

Agreed - defenders use too many resources but a smart bomb does not why not fix this rather than homogenize? But this point confuses me further. So there are already mechanics in place that counter the "the amazingly high" dps of these long range weapons? Like the Firewall and alpha mael fleet? Are these hardware resource hogs? Again this sounds like lazy way out - maybe nerf the amount time dev's spend on the forums and buff the time they spend on developing.

And to address your final point - yes, somehow I knew my daughter with Downs could appeal to -A-.


Yeah well ever heard of stealth bombers, and recons I checked they were all missile bonused. In fact the only two missile bonused gallente hulls are the recons and bombers.

....and you know what if your daughter actually LIKES POS management, if it weren't for that roles thing, I'm sure I could find a LOT of POSs for her to mess with. I hate POS work.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#4780 - 2012-10-17 08:13:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
xShapex wrote:
Dont forget about the -75% tracking when u use T2 longrange weapon longrange ammo.



Medium rails with spike on a ferox with two magstabs do 4 dps to a afterburning frig at 60km

Thats why its not a real comparison to use those ammo type dps numbers.. They dont' actually do that dps.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish