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Why are people so butt hurt about ECM
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Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#121 - 2012-10-03 04:02:33 UTC
Captain Robby wrote:
Each EW weapon as such is used for debuffing a enemy ship if used right most people are going to call OP about it but why so much on ECM?

So i ask again why are people so butt hurt about it?

ECM as it is now is quite OP in the way that it works. ships that do not have a bonus to ECM modules are sometimes able to permajam others and I've seen a case when 2 different people, 1 with a racial ECM and 1 with a multispec, were able to jam a dual ECCM fit logi battleship for a few cycles in a row.

Captain Robby wrote:
It is easy to counter(:) use drones / FOF missiles / sensor damps and possibly some others(.) its not the best EW(.) its a good one(,) i admit that(,) but can be countered if you work around countering it.

here's the problem with what you said:
Drones - the way they work makes their behavior based on luck and maybe timing when you're going against an ECM ship.

FOF missiles*(not missile's, that means "missile is") work as you want them to only when it's just you and the other guy. these missiles would lock on to ANYTHING that is not the ship that launches them - that's what Friend -OR- Foe means.

Sensor Damps - yeah I wanna see you try activating sensor dampeners when you can't even lock on to a target to apply them on.

as for using the direct counter - it just fails. it's that simple. ECCM fails.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#122 - 2012-10-03 04:09:36 UTC
I like these nerf ECM threads. It is like ECM whiners has been touched inappropriately and they were defenseless against it.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Tinja Soikutsu
Perkone
Caldari State
#123 - 2012-10-03 04:14:12 UTC
Alpheias wrote:
I like these nerf ECM threads. It is like ECM whiners has been touched inappropriately and they were defenseless against it.


I love stunlock (general MMO term for what ECM does) threads, watching all the people who abuse it make snarky comments about those they kill with it because they're too chicken**** to try a head on fight.

Note, I have nothing against stuns, but stunlock-until-dead-with-no-realistic-counter is ALWAYS a bad idea.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#124 - 2012-10-03 04:19:39 UTC
Tinja Soikutsu wrote:
Alpheias wrote:
I like these nerf ECM threads. It is like ECM whiners has been touched inappropriately and they were defenseless against it.


I love stunlock (general MMO term for what ECM does) threads, watching all the people who abuse it make snarky comments about those they kill with it because they're too chicken**** to try a head on fight.

Note, I have nothing against stuns, but stunlock-until-dead-with-no-realistic-counter is ALWAYS a bad idea.


Try again. I like to win and I rather win through dastardly tactics than lose with elegance.

To those that cling to that silly notion of honor in fights, you are as much of a relic as the ideals that you desperately cling to.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Tinja Soikutsu
Perkone
Caldari State
#125 - 2012-10-03 04:40:50 UTC
Alpheias wrote:
Tinja Soikutsu wrote:
Alpheias wrote:
I like these nerf ECM threads. It is like ECM whiners has been touched inappropriately and they were defenseless against it.


I love stunlock (general MMO term for what ECM does) threads, watching all the people who abuse it make snarky comments about those they kill with it because they're too chicken**** to try a head on fight.

Note, I have nothing against stuns, but stunlock-until-dead-with-no-realistic-counter is ALWAYS a bad idea.


Try again. I like to win and I rather win through dastardly tactics than lose with elegance.

To those that cling to that silly notion of honor in fights, you are as much of a relic as the ideals that you desperately cling to.


Read again, I have no problems with stuns, they're a great tactic... but stunlock until death? Yes, it is part of the game a present, but it shouldn't be, it shouldn't be part of ANY game.

Stunning a target and taking advantage of that to put them in a position they can't win is tactics. Stunlocking a target until they're dead and unable to do a single thing about it is just a cheep shot.
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#126 - 2012-10-03 04:50:31 UTC
Tinja Soikutsu wrote:
Alpheias wrote:
Tinja Soikutsu wrote:
Alpheias wrote:
I like these nerf ECM threads. It is like ECM whiners has been touched inappropriately and they were defenseless against it.


I love stunlock (general MMO term for what ECM does) threads, watching all the people who abuse it make snarky comments about those they kill with it because they're too chicken**** to try a head on fight.

Note, I have nothing against stuns, but stunlock-until-dead-with-no-realistic-counter is ALWAYS a bad idea.


Try again. I like to win and I rather win through dastardly tactics than lose with elegance.

To those that cling to that silly notion of honor in fights, you are as much of a relic as the ideals that you desperately cling to.


Read again, I have no problems with stuns, they're a great tactic... but stunlock until death? Yes, it is part of the game a present, but it shouldn't be, it shouldn't be part of ANY game.

Stunning a target and taking advantage of that to put them in a position they can't win is tactics. Stunlocking a target until they're dead and unable to do a single thing about it is just a cheep shot.


ECM doesn't immobilize (propulsion jamming does that) which stun locking is about, ECM is more like a blind.

Perhaps you confused the two. Whiners tend to confuse things, you see.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Tinja Soikutsu
Perkone
Caldari State
#127 - 2012-10-03 04:58:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tinja Soikutsu
Alpheias wrote:
Tinja Soikutsu wrote:
Alpheias wrote:
Tinja Soikutsu wrote:
Alpheias wrote:
I like these nerf ECM threads. It is like ECM whiners has been touched inappropriately and they were defenseless against it.


I love stunlock (general MMO term for what ECM does) threads, watching all the people who abuse it make snarky comments about those they kill with it because they're too chicken**** to try a head on fight.

Note, I have nothing against stuns, but stunlock-until-dead-with-no-realistic-counter is ALWAYS a bad idea.


Try again. I like to win and I rather win through dastardly tactics than lose with elegance.

To those that cling to that silly notion of honor in fights, you are as much of a relic as the ideals that you desperately cling to.


Read again, I have no problems with stuns, they're a great tactic... but stunlock until death? Yes, it is part of the game a present, but it shouldn't be, it shouldn't be part of ANY game.

Stunning a target and taking advantage of that to put them in a position they can't win is tactics. Stunlocking a target until they're dead and unable to do a single thing about it is just a cheep shot.


ECM doesn't immobilize (propulsion jamming does that) which stun locking is about, ECM is more like a blind.

Perhaps you confused the two. Whiners tend to confuse things, you see.


Stunlocks = being unable to do anything, take any action. And while yes indeed you can still move while ECMed (ohh my aren't we lucky?) You can still do nothing to fight back against your opponent.

And am I whining? I guess from the point of view of someone who routinely exploits and exploitable mechanic I am.

I'm not against ECM, I'm against ECM rendering a target helpless from the start to the end of a fight with no realistic recourse once it starts.

To be productive I guess even just leaving things as they are there could be something like an 'Adaptive Hardening' effect that makes you immune to ECM for 5-10 seconds after being ECMed... it's not a lot sure, but it might be enough for a skilled player to pull a trump card and turn the tables before the opposing ECM 'adapts' to the hardening and locks you down again.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#128 - 2012-10-03 05:02:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Tinja Soikutsu wrote:
Stunlocks = being unable to do anything, take any action. And while yes indeed you can still move while ECMed (ohh my aren't we lucky?) You can still do nothing to fight back against your opponent.

And am I whining? I guess from the point of view of someone who routinely exploits and exploitable mechanic I am.

I'm not against ECM, I'm against ECM rendering a target helpless from the start to the end of a fight with no realistic recourse once it starts.


False.

FoF missiles. Smartbombs. Drones (especially sentries).

These are a few of the things you can still utilize if jammed.

Also, not unironically, ECM Burst.

You can also warp away. We're talking ECM here, not a combo of ECM + Point.

Think about it.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Tinja Soikutsu
Perkone
Caldari State
#129 - 2012-10-03 05:05:01 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Tinja Soikutsu wrote:
Stunlocks = being unable to do anything, take any action. And while yes indeed you can still move while ECMed (ohh my aren't we lucky?) You can still do nothing to fight back against your opponent.

And am I whining? I guess from the point of view of someone who routinely exploits and exploitable mechanic I am.

I'm not against ECM, I'm against ECM rendering a target helpless from the start to the end of a fight with no realistic recourse once it starts.


False.

FoF missiles. Smartbombs. Drones (especially sentries).

These are a few of the things you can still utilize if jammed.

Also, not unironically, ECM Burst.

You can also warp away. We're talking ECM here, not a combo of ECM + Point.

Think about it.


Ohh yes, a 6KM ECM burst is SOOOOO useful when you're ECMed from 50+ KM away (not, last figure pulled from my ass, don't know the range of ECM unites but I'm sure it's a LOT further away than n ECM burst)
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#130 - 2012-10-03 05:15:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Tinja Soikutsu wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
Tinja Soikutsu wrote:
Stunlocks = being unable to do anything, take any action. And while yes indeed you can still move while ECMed (ohh my aren't we lucky?) You can still do nothing to fight back against your opponent.

And am I whining? I guess from the point of view of someone who routinely exploits and exploitable mechanic I am.

I'm not against ECM, I'm against ECM rendering a target helpless from the start to the end of a fight with no realistic recourse once it starts.


False.

FoF missiles. Smartbombs. Drones (especially sentries).

These are a few of the things you can still utilize if jammed.

Also, not unironically, ECM Burst.

You can also warp away. We're talking ECM here, not a combo of ECM + Point.

Think about it.


Ohh yes, a 6KM ECM burst is SOOOOO useful when you're ECMed from 50+ KM away (not, last figure pulled from my ass, don't know the range of ECM unites but I'm sure it's a LOT further away than n ECM burst)


I thought your previous post specifically stated that you can move around while you are ECM'd. Sorry.

Next time I'll work on comprehension, I guess.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Tinja Soikutsu
Perkone
Caldari State
#131 - 2012-10-03 05:24:36 UTC
well unless you're up against a scorpian I don't see a battleship being about to chance down an EWAR ship to get it in ECM blast range... and I can't imagine most would be stupid enough to initiate an ECM attack within ECM blast range of a battleship.
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#132 - 2012-10-03 06:11:11 UTC
you know what, I have the ultimate solution to the inferiority of everything to ECM.

let's all train Caldari Frigates/Cruisers/Battleships to lvl 5 and all ECM-Related skills and fly griffins/blackbirds/scorpions. PROBLEM SOLVED.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#133 - 2012-10-03 06:15:07 UTC
Tinja Soikutsu wrote:
well unless you're up against a scorpian I don't see a battleship being about to chance down an EWAR ship to get it in ECM blast range... and I can't imagine most would be stupid enough to initiate an ECM attack within ECM blast range of a battleship.

In bloc-level fleet engagements we're quite often close enough to easily close the range to 6km from our enemies. Not always, but quite often.

We also never specified that ECM is only uberwinmode against only battleships. So there's that: If you don't want to get ECM'd fly something fast and fit accordingly.

I'm also not sure you addressed any of the other counterpoints I made.

But good post! Keep on trying. What?

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Cpt Gobla
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#134 - 2012-10-03 06:48:23 UTC
Because ECM, as it currently is, is boring.

It's not overpowered. ECM is hardly something present in every single fight. Some fights against ECM you'll win and some fights you'll lose, pretty much dependant on the numbers involved, the skill of the pilots and the ships/ranges involved.

But most of those fights, at least the parts involving ECM, will be horribly boring. Either the jams hit and you and most of your friends will be sitting there doing nothing AKA boring. Or the jams don't hit and the jammer will be primaried and killed in short order, causing him to sit there doing nothing AKA boring.

ECM does not make fights more interesting. It either makes them less interesting for the victim if the jams succeed or it makes them less interesting for the jammer if they don't.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2012-10-03 09:42:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Speedkermit Damo
All other ewar modules attack a specific ship function - either tracking, warp, speed, CAP etc etc. Jammers take out every offensive module permanently all at once. No other module or weapon comes close to doing so much to an opponent. Of course it's overpowered, imbalanced, broken.

It's simply an "I win" button, and those who defend it so much know it.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#136 - 2012-10-03 11:47:32 UTC
its not actually because of falcon the system is broken, sure no one likes ecm effect on them however it does not effect everyone equally.

The main and biggest issue is that with the sliding scale of eccm strength and availability of utility mids on smaller ships, makes using ecm against other small ships VERY strong - where you actually need a BB, scorp, falcon to jam bc/bs

A td on any ship effects any other ship just the same way, in the same amounts, ecm chances increase vastly the lower the eccm value.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
fr0gout
#137 - 2012-10-17 01:23:09 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
All other ewar modules attack a specific ship function - either tracking, warp, speed, CAP etc etc. Jammers take out every offensive module permanently all at once. No other module or weapon comes close to doing so much to an opponent. Of course it's overpowered, imbalanced, broken.

It's simply an "I win" button, and those who defend it so much know it.


its not an iwin button you can just fit f.o.f missiles to your Deimos and Zealot and then ECM is usless WTF!
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#138 - 2012-10-17 01:27:49 UTC
Simple solution - allow to use ECM on carriers and all ships that are able to jump :) ONLY !
Shederov Blood
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#139 - 2012-10-17 01:38:11 UTC
Captain Robby wrote:
So i ask again why are people so butt hurt about it?
Hey, I know this one!

BECAUSE OF F...**user was taken outside and beaten with a rubber hose**

Who put the goat in there?
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#140 - 2012-10-17 05:28:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Because people are frustrated when they are hit with CC effects and substitutes (and being as slow paced as EVE combat is, its CC are loooong). It's so prominent that some game designers refrain from bringing any form of hard CC into their games just avoid some frustration induction that probably will be associated with their game (ohnoez).

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become