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Getting Rid of the Undesirables (for good this time)

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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#701 - 2012-10-16 23:40:59 UTC
Vigilant wrote:
Korinne wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
People hate change, MMO's are about change. Either you adapt or die (leave).

We will see which way this change pushes the game.


With an attitude like that, it's no wonder most mmo's flop over so early. If it's not broken don't fix it. MMO's are NOT about change, they're about engaging gameplay involving other players and their interactions with each other towards common or opposing goals; as opposed to interaction with an AI, thus any change that removes levels of player interaction, or otherwise deters it on a large scale is questionable at best.


If that was the case we would still be flying Battle Ships and no T2/T3/Cap Ships/Sov/FW/ and should go on?

Fixing a bugs is different than adding content to make the game better or more fun Shocked

MMO's are about change....and making us want to keep paying to play with those changes.

There are differences between different content additions. Adding new ships is not the same as adding new restrictions on player activity.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#702 - 2012-10-16 23:44:50 UTC
I might go to the noob systems and put 10 mill bounties on them all if they are seen in a Nyx.

Any true noob will just see a 10 mill bounty on their head.

EVE Online psy-ops 101

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#703 - 2012-10-16 23:46:23 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
We have nothing of the severity or even general direction of your crimewatch 3.0 suggestion. If we saw gankers and criminals start to have some sort of automated loss according to damage they inflict sure. But we don't. We simply have more people being able to shoot you as the primary difference.

When I look at the changes made from when I started playing up to today, the whole picture looks entirely different when comparing it to just the changes made in the last year or so.

If we were playing 2004 EVE with a 2012 server population and player mindset, the grand majority of people wouldn't be able to undock. In 1.0 systems even.

I can't comment on the game that long ago, but I think it stands to reason that the escalating consequential responses stem from the need to support that larger population and the additional content in the game. The only way to keep the same rules is to not allow the game to grow or segregate it's population, both of which are hugely undesirable. Also the scale CCP is using can easily be tipped by the meta game in ways they didn't intend and may have never occurred with in game mechanics alone.
Vigilant
Vigilant's Vigilante's
#704 - 2012-10-16 23:47:50 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
Korinne wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
People hate change, MMO's are about change. Either you adapt or die (leave).

We will see which way this change pushes the game.


With an attitude like that, it's no wonder most mmo's flop over so early. If it's not broken don't fix it. MMO's are NOT about change, they're about engaging gameplay involving other players and their interactions with each other towards common or opposing goals; as opposed to interaction with an AI, thus any change that removes levels of player interaction, or otherwise deters it on a large scale is questionable at best.


If that was the case we would still be flying Battle Ships and no T2/T3/Cap Ships/Sov/FW/ and should go on?

Fixing a bugs is different than adding content to make the game better or more fun Shocked

MMO's are about change....and making us want to keep paying to play with those changes.

There are differences between different content additions. Adding new ships is not the same as adding new restrictions on player activity.



Every change to mechanics in a game, changes player activity. Think how the first Covert Ops ships changed scouting? Or even farther back then that when alliances existed before you could actually create one? or even father back when you could mine a gate and be in high sec get concorded because your did not clear your mines in null/low and you decided to move into high sec. (ship pops in low /null and concord pops you in high).

MMO's change, players adapt or do not...
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#705 - 2012-10-16 23:47:59 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
Korinne wrote:
Vigilant wrote:
People hate change, MMO's are about change. Either you adapt or die (leave).

We will see which way this change pushes the game.


With an attitude like that, it's no wonder most mmo's flop over so early. If it's not broken don't fix it. MMO's are NOT about change, they're about engaging gameplay involving other players and their interactions with each other towards common or opposing goals; as opposed to interaction with an AI, thus any change that removes levels of player interaction, or otherwise deters it on a large scale is questionable at best.


If that was the case we would still be flying Battle Ships and no T2/T3/Cap Ships/Sov/FW/ and should go on?

Fixing a bugs is different than adding content to make the game better or more fun Shocked

MMO's are about change....and making us want to keep paying to play with those changes.

There are differences between different content additions. Adding new ships is not the same as adding new restrictions on player activity.

There aren't any new restrictions with this change, just more possible consequences.
Grumpymunky
Monkey Steals The Peach
#706 - 2012-10-16 23:49:44 UTC
Ioci wrote:
I might go to the noob systems and put 10 mill bounties on them all if they are seen in a Nyx.
What? I think someone needs to read the Dev blogs a bit better.

Post with your monkey.

Thread locked due to lack of pants.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#707 - 2012-10-16 23:50:01 UTC
Front-loading aggression penalties (any kind) IS a massive restriction.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#708 - 2012-10-16 23:52:14 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I can't comment on the game that long ago, but I think it stands to reason that the escalating consequential responses stem from the need to support that larger population and the additional content in the game. The only way to keep the same rules is to not allow the game to grow or segregate it's population, both of which are hugely undesirable. Also the scale CCP is using can easily be tipped by the meta game in ways they didn't intend and may have never occurred with in game mechanics alone.

I'm pretty certain that the reason for the latest influx in restrictions is because of burn jita, ice interdiction 1, freightergate and now apparently ice interdiction 2, all of which are done by nullsec people. I'd go so far as to argue that the reason we're infesting hisec in the fashion we are is that CCP have repeatedly made changes which have gradually turned nullsec into a wasteland outside of fleet fights, and CCP have been gradually nerfing that too by reducing the number of things to fight over, which means we're turning to hisec.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#709 - 2012-10-16 23:56:36 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Front-loading aggression penalties (any kind) IS a massive restriction.

It's only a restriction if it gives the person they were aggressing the ability to do something they otherwise wouldn't (IE I get an HP/DPS penalty, for being for being a criminal)
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#710 - 2012-10-17 00:02:32 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I can't comment on the game that long ago, but I think it stands to reason that the escalating consequential responses stem from the need to support that larger population and the additional content in the game. The only way to keep the same rules is to not allow the game to grow or segregate it's population, both of which are hugely undesirable. Also the scale CCP is using can easily be tipped by the meta game in ways they didn't intend and may have never occurred with in game mechanics alone.

I'm pretty certain that the reason for the latest influx in restrictions is because of burn jita, ice interdiction 1, freightergate and now apparently ice interdiction 2, all of which are done by nullsec people. I'd go so far as to argue that the reason we're infesting hisec in the fashion we are is that CCP have repeatedly made changes which have gradually turned nullsec into a wasteland outside of fleet fights, and CCP have been gradually nerfing that too by reducing the number of things to fight over, which means we're turning to hisec.

Possibly. So what do you do with a powerhouse that seemingly no one can stop decides to act the criminal role, has the resources to wreak havoc on a large scale and/or lives in a place that makes the consequences largely irrelevant? And more importantly if this is aimed at those, how does it stop you?
Korinne
The Partisan Brigade
#711 - 2012-10-17 00:05:09 UTC
There's a difference between change and growth/progress, not all change is constructive.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#712 - 2012-10-17 00:15:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Possibly. So what do you do with a powerhouse that seemingly no one can stop decides to act the criminal role, has the resources to wreak havoc on a large scale and/or lives in a place that makes the consequences largely irrelevant? And more importantly if this is aimed at those, how does it stop you?

See, you're looking at it from the wrong angle, you don't want to stop people from doing things like this in hisec, you want to give them a reason to look for the same type of content in nullsec. CCP has neglected this aspect of the game for years, and as I said I moved into nullsec 3 years ago, and I moved my nullsec moneymaking alt back to hisec around 2.5 years ago quite simply because all the things I wanted to do were impossible to do in nullsec (without incurring great cost and lots of extra logistics compared to those who just imported ships etc).

This means less people living there, this means less people for roaming gangs to gank, this means less fun to be had in nullsec, and this finally means going to hisec to have fun there instead.

Fix nullsec industry and other various things which would incentivize people into living there, and people would have more incentive to try to grief other people in nullsec instead of hisec. No force required, no hindrances required. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Ludi Burek
Exit-Strategy
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#713 - 2012-10-17 00:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ludi Burek
All this talk of people rolling gank alts worries me as I used to just gank on my main and would again like to gank on my main (role play thing).

Proliferation of -10 alts in empire only leads to one final outcome considering the development trend and that is severe restrictions on outlaw characters in high sec. Cry
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#714 - 2012-10-17 00:32:40 UTC
Simply put:

God buttons/features like "now people can't shoot you" *bling the magic wand* "now everyone can shoot you" don't belong to EvE. There are game mechanics which should be static, not something you can alter in middle of fight.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#715 - 2012-10-17 00:34:51 UTC
Ludi Burek wrote:
All this talk of people rolling gank alts worries me as I used to just gank on my main and would again like to gank on my main (role play thing).

Proliferation of -10 alts in empire only leads to one final outcome considering the development trend and that is severe restrictions on outlaw characters in high sec. Cry

Logical conclusion, my friend. I hope people remember that term.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#716 - 2012-10-17 00:38:09 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Simply put:

God buttons/features like "now people can't shoot you" *bling the magic wand* "now everyone can shoot you" don't belong to EvE. There are game mechanics which should be static, not something you can alter in middle of fight.

They have always existed save the fact that instead of everyone it was the person you did it to and his corp.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#717 - 2012-10-17 00:43:23 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Possibly. So what do you do with a powerhouse that seemingly no one can stop decides to act the criminal role, has the resources to wreak havoc on a large scale and/or lives in a place that makes the consequences largely irrelevant? And more importantly if this is aimed at those, how does it stop you?

See, you're looking at it from the wrong angle, you don't want to stop people from doing things like this in hisec, you want to give them a reason to look for the same type of content in nullsec. CCP has neglected this aspect of the game for years, and as I said I moved into nullsec 3 years ago, and I moved my nullsec moneymaking alt back to hisec around 2.5 years ago quite simply because all the things I wanted to do were impossible to do in nullsec (without incurring great cost and lots of extra logistics compared to those who just imported ships etc).

This means less people living there, this means less people for roaming gangs to gank, this means less fun to be had in nullsec, and this finally means going to hisec to have fun there instead.

Fix nullsec industry and other various things which would incentivize people into living there, and people would have more incentive to try to grief other people in nullsec instead of hisec. No force required, no hindrances required. vOv

No doubt that which is broken needs fixed, but at the same time I'm not sure how this addressed the specific incidents you mentioned for the most part. Seems they would still be possible in the same ways they were before.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#718 - 2012-10-17 00:46:35 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Simply put:

God buttons/features like "now people can't shoot you" *bling the magic wand* "now everyone can shoot you" don't belong to EvE. There are game mechanics which should be static, not something you can alter in middle of fight.

They have always existed save the fact that instead of everyone it was the person you did it to and his corp.


If you're referring to war decs how are they related to something what happens in middle of fight in blink of an eye? War decs are part of the static game mechanics and they work always the same. War decs don't suddenly turn off concord when your random opponent decides to click button.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#719 - 2012-10-17 00:50:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Simply put:

God buttons/features like "now people can't shoot you" *bling the magic wand* "now everyone can shoot you" don't belong to EvE. There are game mechanics which should be static, not something you can alter in middle of fight.

They have always existed save the fact that instead of everyone it was the person you did it to and his corp.


If you're referring to war decs how are they related to something what happens in middle of fight in blink of an eye? War decs are part of the static game mechanics and they work always the same. War decs don't suddenly turn off concord when your random opponent decides to click button.

No, I'm not referring to wardecs, which as I understand aren't changing, but I assume you are talking about tradable kill rights. If so then I'll agree that some things about the way that is being done irk me. Seems to me that whatever the terms are they should be a permanent, 1 time trade to a new owner who has all the right of the originator rather than making it as free for all. but that is a personal opinion.

The other option is that you we talking about acts like stealing, which I don't see an issue being free for all. In that case you still have a choice about when and where to engage to maximize your chances.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#720 - 2012-10-17 00:50:57 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Possibly. So what do you do with a powerhouse that seemingly no one can stop decides to act the criminal role, has the resources to wreak havoc on a large scale and/or lives in a place that makes the consequences largely irrelevant? And more importantly if this is aimed at those, how does it stop you?

See, you're looking at it from the wrong angle, you don't want to stop people from doing things like this in hisec, you want to give them a reason to look for the same type of content in nullsec. CCP has neglected this aspect of the game for years, and as I said I moved into nullsec 3 years ago, and I moved my nullsec moneymaking alt back to hisec around 2.5 years ago quite simply because all the things I wanted to do were impossible to do in nullsec (without incurring great cost and lots of extra logistics compared to those who just imported ships etc).

This means less people living there, this means less people for roaming gangs to gank, this means less fun to be had in nullsec, and this finally means going to hisec to have fun there instead.

Fix nullsec industry and other various things which would incentivize people into living there, and people would have more incentive to try to grief other people in nullsec instead of hisec. No force required, no hindrances required. vOv

And a point that I absolutely agree on.

We're repeatedly trying to fix the result, not the cause.

Fix 0.0 and what happens in highsec becomes irrelevant to a lot of people very quickly.

I posted a thread once using IKEA as a metaphor. What I was trying to point out is that too many are trying to turn HS into a pseudo LS or even 0.0 - you know, a sameness.

If all sectors were meant to be the same everywhere we wouldn't need rules for anyone and it'd just be called SPACE.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."