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Dev blog: The Retribution of Team Super Friends

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Villani Capelli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#961 - 2012-10-16 22:43:45 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
One question which I feel is pretty pertinent to this whole ordeal of a **** thread: has hisec ganking/griefing increased lately since CCP feels the urge to tighten the screw more and more? And if so, why has it increased?


I don't think so. I think that there are two main motivators for the crimewatch + killright change:

- Simplify the flagging system for players to better understand;
- Technically eliminate 1x1 flagging from the software.
Bodega Cat
Expedition Spartica
#962 - 2012-10-16 22:46:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Bodega Cat
Villani Capelli wrote:
Bodega Cat wrote:

You are right, it is kind of a shame... But you have to appreciate something....

The rest of the game, isn't made for the type of player that gets turned away by that kind of thing. Everything else in EVE down the road is going to stimulate a "i should just quit" response.

The player that will stay attracted to eve, gets destroyed after looting a can, and learns a valuable lesson from it. He puts together a plan to earn some money in belts, gets destroyed and learns a valuable lesson from it. The game is for people who are compelled to STAY and overcome new challenges when they experience adversity. The people that are compelled to leave when faced with it, are only going to find more of that down the road.

Why pretend/fabricate game features that promotes a notion that this game is something it is clearly not? Even if it is just to protect a noob for a little while, the subterfuge won't last.


If the amount of players that leave the game because of this stuff is bigger than the amount that stays, its not a good thing. But I can't check that.


Why is that not a good thing?

Theirs nothing wrong with it honestly, not every video game has to be for everybody. This game is very much is aware of who its target user is, so naturally, it sheds more than it takes on in the new user department. But in my gut, i believe it has better retention in the long run as a result. Theirs not a lot of games on the market that can scratch the "EVE" itch.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#963 - 2012-10-16 22:47:41 UTC
Villani Capelli wrote:
- Technically eliminate 1x1 flagging from the software.

AFAIK there isn't any 1v1 flagging in the system at this point either, it's 1vcorp, which works perfectly fine, CCP just needed to make a nice chart like they did for the new system.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#964 - 2012-10-16 22:59:56 UTC
Villani Capelli wrote:
If the amount of players that leave the game because of this stuff is bigger than the amount that stays, its not a good thing. But I can't check that.

It depends on what you mean by "the number of players who leave is bigger than the number that stays". If you're talking about new people, then that's a rather irrelevant metric, the proper metric to look at is how many old vets leave compared to how many newbies stay. If fewer newbies stay than old vets leave, that's when you know you've ****** up.

Villani Capelli wrote:
- Technically eliminate 1x1 flagging from the software.

So instead of 1vCorp, they make it 1vEveryone, and they make that kick in sooner.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Villani Capelli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#965 - 2012-10-16 23:12:17 UTC
Bodega Cat wrote:
Villani Capelli wrote:
Bodega Cat wrote:

You are right, it is kind of a shame... But you have to appreciate something....

The rest of the game, isn't made for the type of player that gets turned away by that kind of thing. Everything else in EVE down the road is going to stimulate a "i should just quit" response.

The player that will stay attracted to eve, gets destroyed after looting a can, and learns a valuable lesson from it. He puts together a plan to earn some money in belts, gets destroyed and learns a valuable lesson from it. The game is for people who are compelled to STAY and overcome new challenges when they experience adversity. The people that are compelled to leave when faced with it, are only going to find more of that down the road.

Why pretend/fabricate game features that promotes a notion that this game is something it is clearly not? Even if it is just to protect a noob for a little while, the subterfuge won't last.


If the amount of players that leave the game because of this stuff is bigger than the amount that stays, its not a good thing. But I can't check that.


Why is that not a good thing?Smile

Theirs nothing wrong with it honestly, not every video game has to be for everybody. This game is very much is aware of who its target user is, so naturally, it sheds more than it takes on in the new user department. But in my gut, i believe it has better retention in the long run as a result. Theirs not a lot of games on the market that can scratch the "EVE" itch.


Assuming that CCP seeks profit, short and long terms, more players equals more profit.

EVE is rich enough to support a safer highsec and still a lot of other play styles. You don't need to trade one thing for another.

We get the impression from the posts here that eliminating some scams and baits will somehow destroy the game. Even if we had a 100% safe highsec, then what? Lower mineral prices? A bit of deflaction? Nullsec corps, PvP players wont suffer major changes.

Yes, some scammers will quit, what I think its great.
Villani Capelli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#966 - 2012-10-16 23:14:42 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Villani Capelli wrote:
- Technically eliminate 1x1 flagging from the software.

AFAIK there isn't any 1v1 flagging in the system at this point either, it's 1vcorp, which works perfectly fine, CCP just needed to make a nice chart like they did for the new system.


Yes, 1x1 = you and your corp (if any) can attack a target, but not everyone.

Of course it works. Could work better with the global flag? We'll see Twisted
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#967 - 2012-10-16 23:21:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
For the record, I also approve of the new system... although I feel it may need a little adjustment here and there.

However I don't like it because I feel it makes high sec safer. I like it because it gives the high sec citizen (especially those that have more money than combat prowess) options he did not have before.

At the same time, while it does make some aspects of high sec combat more dangerous, it also opens up new opportunities for those on the other side of the law.

Best of all, it achieves these goal with an over all simplification of the rules and coding involved, which opens the door to other adjustments an innovations to follow later. People get lured into combat because they were out played, rather than due to confusion at the rules of engagement.

I do however respect the opinion of those who are concerned about things swinging too far to the side of safety, and will be watching the details emerge through testing with a critical eye.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#968 - 2012-10-16 23:35:56 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
For the record, I also approve of the new system... although I feel it may need a little adjustment here and there.

However I don't like it because I feel it makes high sec safer. I like it because it gives the high sec citizen (especially those that have more money than combat prowess) options he did not have before.

Then why not make a small change to one aspect of the system that will turn it from utter crap, into one of CCP's crown achievements?

All they have to do is make kill rights result in a Limited Engagement between the owner of the kill rights (can be player OR corporation) and the target. That's it. If they were to do that, then every single ******* person would get on board with these changes. It would be the best thing ever. Literally.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Villani Capelli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#969 - 2012-10-17 00:02:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Villani Capelli
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
For the record, I also approve of the new system... although I feel it may need a little adjustment here and there.

However I don't like it because I feel it makes high sec safer. I like it because it gives the high sec citizen (especially those that have more money than combat prowess) options he did not have before.

Then why not make a small change to one aspect of the system that will turn it from utter crap, into one of CCP's crown achievements?

All they have to do is make kill rights result in a Limited Engagement between the owner of the kill rights (can be player OR corporation) and the target. That's it. If they were to do that, then every single ******* person would get on board with these changes. It would be the best thing ever. Literally.


Good point, I think its a tech decision, to eliminate 1xcorp flags from the software.

But there is a way to reuse the global flag: Kill Right item, transferable and activable.

If you wanna activate when a lot of people are around, OK. If you wanna try to pursue the target by yourself, OK.

Throw in the amount of ISK destroyed into the mix and you have a great new system.

I'm against low-sec actions granting kill-rights. For me, kill-right should be = "ISK destructrion authorization". So, if you only activated a point at a ship, no damage done, no kill right.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#970 - 2012-10-17 00:11:00 UTC
No no no, you're getting it wrong. The LE concept is something they're actually introducing in the expansion to cover some other aspects of the aggro reworkings. I'm at a loss of words why they can't apply it to kill rights.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Villani Capelli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#971 - 2012-10-17 00:14:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Villani Capelli
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
No no no, you're getting it wrong. The LE concept is something they're actually introducing in the expansion to cover some other aspects of the aggro reworkings. I'm at a loss of words why they can't apply it to kill rights.


Oh, OK. I was using LE as equal aggression flagging (1xcorp), I'll edit that.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#972 - 2012-10-17 00:16:44 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
No no no, you're getting it wrong. The LE concept is something they're actually introducing in the expansion to cover some other aspects of the aggro reworkings. I'm at a loss of words why they can't apply it to kill rights.

It's not a matter of can't, it's a matter of won't.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#973 - 2012-10-17 00:18:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
Villani Capelli wrote:
Good point, I think its a tech decision, to eliminate LE from the software.

LE aren't being removed the from the software, they're simply being used elsewhere.

Look, CCP has taken a reasonably complex system that said "You and your mates are responsible for your own ****" and turned it into "LOL BOOLEAN GANGBANG". And that works out okay so long as you're not using it to manage a kill rights mechanic that bounty hunters will want to use in a very fine-grained manner. It's pretty much useless except for catching the terminally stupid or trolling someone right now.

Destiny Corrupted wrote:
All they have to do is make kill rights result in a Limited Engagement between the owner of the kill rights (can be player OR corporation) and the target. That's it. If they were to do that, then every single ******* person would get on board with these changes. It would be the best thing ever. Literally.

This. I mean really, the Suspect flag has sort of grown on me and the new system isn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be. Part-time gank-tards and wannabe criminals like me will adapt, and probably have more fun as a result.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
mkint
#974 - 2012-10-17 00:21:53 UTC
@CCP (if you are still reading, which in your place, I probably wouldn't be) What metrics do you intend to use to determine if the new killrights are a success, and what specific numbers are you looking for? (For example number and isk value of killrights losses before and after the patch, or something?) What do you intend to do if your chosen metric fails to meet expectations? Or do you even have actual measurable goals to reach?

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Villani Capelli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#975 - 2012-10-17 00:21:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Villani Capelli
Refreshing...

Quote:
The personal-flags system tidies up a lot of problems with the old system, but still leaves us with a couple of cases that aren't covered. The main one is that a suspect can be freely attacked, but he has no way to defend himself from attack without committing further crimes. We want to ensure that a player always has a right to self-defense, even if he is A Bad Guy. To solve this, we still require a form of A-B flagging. However this will be heavily limited in application, and won't be propagated via assistance chains like the existing aggression flags are. This is where we introduce the concept of a Limited Engagement. An LE is between a pair of characters. (Always characters, not corps, alliances, factions or anything else). An LE gives each party a legal right to attack the other, without triggering any Legal flag. An LE is ACTIVE as long as offensive actions are on-going. Once offensive acts have stopped, it will begin to count down. Resuming hostilities will reset the timer. If the timer expires (probably 15 minutes but still TBC) then the LE is ended. An LE is created when character A attacks character B, and where B is globally-attackable due to being a Suspect, Criminal or Outlaw. This then allows B to defend himself against A. Like Criminal and Suspect flags, An LE is only effective in empire space. Assisting someone who is engaged in an LE will cause the assistor to receive a Suspect flag. This is to prevent neutral logistics interfering in ongoing combat without risk to themselves.


So they are simplifying aggression flagging, just so the attacked (suspect/criminal) player could defend himself. But its simpler, since it won't be propagated via assistance chains like the existing aggression flags are.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#976 - 2012-10-17 00:25:42 UTC
mkint wrote:
@CCP (if you are still reading, which in your place, I probably wouldn't be) What metrics do you intend to use to determine if the new killrights are a success, and what specific numbers are you looking for? (For example number and isk value of killrights losses before and after the patch, or something?) What do you intend to do if your chosen metric fails to meet expectations? Or do you even have actual measurable goals to reach?

If the Inferno war change statistics are anything to go by, kill rights will see an 80% reduction in usage.

Considering their current usage numbers, and according to my mastery of voodoo mathematics, the total amount of kill rights claimed will be approximately the square root of negative one.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Veryez
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#977 - 2012-10-17 00:55:11 UTC
CCP, we were discussing this earlier and I really couldn't find the answer, so perhaps we could get some info on the following:

Lets say player 'A' has a 10 mil bounty on his head, and has buyable kill rights (more then one). Seeing him flying a fancy t3 ship, I buy the kill right and kill him. I get 2 mil for the kill, leaving 8 mil bounty.

Some time later he's flying another shiny t3 (yeah for needing to be taught twice), I quickly activate one of the other kill rights and kill him again.

Question:

Do I get another 2 mil for the second kill, or do I get 1.6 mil? If it's the second, then when is the bounty used up? i.e. if I keep getting 20% of the current bounty amount, it will never be used up and people will be flying around with 0.00001 isk bounties.

Other question:

1) Do bounties pay out in wh space?

I think I'm really going to like this new system, especially the part where someone just finds out all of EvE can shoot them for something they did a month ago.

Please CCP, don't let a character know when kill rights have been activated against them.

The WTF???? moment when someone undocks in Jita and has 1000 people gank them is beyond priceless.
Reticle
Sight Picture
#978 - 2012-10-17 01:04:22 UTC
Villani Capelli wrote:
Reticle wrote:
Villani Capelli wrote:
I did some market research and found that for each scammer, highsec suicide bomber and "baiter", EVE loses 3 other carebears. It's not an assumption, it's just the market.

Do us all a favor and link this "market research."


Do us all a favor, read the previous posts and read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

It would appear you also need to click the link. Get it now?
Reticle
Sight Picture
#979 - 2012-10-17 01:25:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Reticle wrote:
I can't read your mind, so I don't why you would or wouldn't. I just know that you're lying.
No, you're just clueless. Also, you don't need to read my mind to answer the question — you just have to come up with a reason and you can't, so you have to resort to personal abuse to hide your massive cognitive disabilities and your utter and complete lack of anything that could be remotely considered as even being close to something that might, with a bit of luck, be construed as a shred of an argument.

The simple fact remains: there's no reason to travel AFK, so why on earth would you? Why would I? Why would anyone? If you say that everyone does it, you are lying by default since you're spewing nonsense with no basis in reality.

I can tell when you post on a roll. Your writing gets a certain rhythm to it. You also like to milk the ironic post thing, but you're not good with the subtleties of doing so. I'm calling you a liar (one word) and you've provided a full paragraph of abuse. Clever. You write by example.

No one here believes for one minute that you've never flown your ship AFK. That you've never dashed away from your computer to grab the phone or the remote or a beer. No one believes for one minute that you have never hit Warp and flipped to a browser or turned to talk your wife/roomate/sex slave. Or that you haven't created a noob price check alt and AP'd to Jita or created a disposable alt that you've AP'd to the last high sec system before taking them into the unknown. No one believes for one moment that you haven't AP'd an empty freighter through high sec. No one believes that you've never run a shuttle through high sec on AP. No one. Do you seriously expect anyone to believe that you haven't done it once?

Just admit it. At least once you've traveled AFK in EVE.

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#980 - 2012-10-17 02:59:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Doing something when you're new is different from doing something when you're experienced. I can't speak for him, but I'm pretty sure that he implicitly means that he never APed after he became aware of the implications that using autopilot has.

Frankly, neither have I, if we follow the five guidelines I outlined a few pages ago. Empty shuttle with no danger of aggro, that's it. I agree in theory that afk-traveling in a plated, T2-fit Hurricane virtually ensures that you won't be suicide-ganked by anyone, and should be safe if no one has aggro/war rights on you. However, it builds bad habits. That's why I don't do it personally.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted