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Out of Pod Experience

 
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Will the real strawman please stand up.

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Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#1 - 2012-10-14 20:39:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Touval Lysander
Seeing the phrase "strawman" a lot in posts lately and it's starting to have effects on my perfection. It's being used incorrectly and in a lot of cases as a "term of endearment".

Let's get this straight.
Quote:
A simple proposal intended to generate discussion of its disadvantages and to provoke the generation of new and better proposals.


A strawman (post etc.) is supposed to be contradicted, countered, argued, denied, beaten, massaged and refuted. It is not fact and neither the presentation nor the discussion can be deemed as a non-negotiable.

ALL OF OUR POSTS SHOULD BE STRAWMAN POSTS.

If what you have to say cannot be countered because it is FACT (i.e. the earth is round) then fine, otherwise it is no more than an opinion, perhaps borne by experience and/or motive and MUST be open to challenge.

So if you do get called a strawman, take it as a compliment. It means you are open to discussion and not a belligerent "I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG" poaster.

The lack of respect being shown to others on this forum (through some self-appointed divine right as it were), particularly in GD, is disturbing. Given that it is the "public" front-end of Eve, we should be ashamed of ourselves.

>> This is a strawman post. Discuss.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#2 - 2012-10-14 20:44:30 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
The lack of respect being shown to others on this forum (through some self-appointed divine right as it were), particularly in GD, is disturbing. Given that it is the "public" front-end of Eve, we should be ashamed of ourselves.

I know I'm not.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-10-14 20:45:24 UTC
i'd describe this place as more of a public back-end if you know what I mean
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#4 - 2012-10-14 20:48:44 UTC
What you're talking about is a strawman proposal, which is different from a strawman argument.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#5 - 2012-10-14 20:51:07 UTC
An interesting post, however it's not one for General discussion so I've moved this.

Thanks and fly safe.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#6 - 2012-10-14 20:51:58 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
What you're talking about is a strawman proposal, which is different from a strawman argument.

They both have the same intent. A strawman proposal is put forward to be argued.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#7 - 2012-10-14 20:53:52 UTC
ISD Suvetar wrote:
An interesting post, however it's not one for General discussion so I've moved this.

Thanks and fly safe.

Aw c'mon!

It was a direct and pointed argument at the belligerence being shown in GD.

How does it end up as "out of pod"?

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#8 - 2012-10-14 21:23:33 UTC
Hi Touval,

Just as a public service; I've placed it here because it's the best place on the forums for this discussion and I didn't feel it was a good thing to just lock your thread, as I've said - it's an interesting topic.

However, the only thing that makes it related to EVE is that it's posted on the EVE forums; you could have posted this on pretty any forum anywhere and found it germane to that forum.

As you know, we don't get into debates about specific moderator actions - but I hope you can accept the reason why I did this.

Thanks.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Telegram Sam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-10-15 15:28:44 UTC
Agree with OP's point.
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#10 - 2012-10-15 15:34:09 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
ISD Suvetar wrote:
An interesting post, however it's not one for General discussion so I've moved this.

Thanks and fly safe.

Aw c'mon!

It was a direct and pointed argument at the belligerence being shown in GD.

How does it end up as "out of pod"?



Welcome to the sewers where the us CHUD's hang out. But no seriously, I agree with your point. Strawman has simply become misused in arguments, and usually when people can no longer refute you. Kind of taken up the same meaning of being called a troll now.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Borascus
#11 - 2012-10-15 16:32:57 UTC
Its kinda like the circle-jerk, taken to previously mean each facet interacts in due course, only spontaneously, it now means something completely different.

Forums, eventually it will just be "announcement space"
Telegram Sam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-10-15 18:00:44 UTC
Borascus wrote:
Its kinda like the circle-jerk, taken to previously mean each facet interacts in due course, only spontaneously, it now means something completely different.

Forums, eventually it will just be "announcement space"

I love the way people don't read the entire post, or not carefully enough to actually understand it. Then the argue something back that's sort of on the point, but sort of not. Then somebody comments on that inaccurate post, and so on, etc. etc. Until in the end, there's a heated argument going, but it's not even about what the OP said. If you graphed the thread progress, it might look like a Mandelbrot chaos theory graphic. Smile
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-10-15 19:48:43 UTC
Actually most "discussions" on GD generally seem to base themselves around rhetorical tautologies.
This is especially more pronounced when the thing being argued against is hisec mining.
Borascus
#14 - 2012-10-15 21:21:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Borascus
Telegram Sam wrote:
Borascus wrote:
Its kinda like the circle-jerk, taken to previously mean each facet interacts in due course, only spontaneously, it now means something completely different.

Forums, eventually it will just be "announcement space"

I love the way people don't read the entire post, or not carefully enough to actually understand it. Then the argue something back that's sort of on the point, but sort of not. Then somebody comments on that inaccurate post, and so on, etc. etc. Until in the end, there's a heated argument going, but it's not even about what the OP said. If you graphed the thread progress, it might look like a Mandelbrot chaos theory graphic. Smile


Interestingly I tried to get a video together of net migration post EVE-Gate to place the races in their respective locations and attempt to build a standardised spread of population. It erm, no got buried.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#15 - 2012-10-16 00:45:09 UTC
"If what you have to say cannot be countered because it is FACT (i.e. the earth is round)"

If the earth is round, why are desk made level or flat, wouldn't they be round, at least in the slightest?

Of course if the world was flat, we wouldn't have an unified gravity field as well. Some places would have stronger or weaker gravity.

The only thing that absolutely proves the world is round and not flat, is the opening sequence to the **** Van Dyke show.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#16 - 2012-10-16 00:54:04 UTC
rodyas wrote:
"If what you have to say cannot be countered because it is FACT (i.e. the earth is round)"

If the earth is round, why are desk made level or flat, wouldn't they be round, at least in the slightest?

They are flat and can be because they are slightly closer to the ground in the centre Blink

Brrrpp.... Try again. Big smile

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#17 - 2012-10-16 19:13:53 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
What you're talking about is a strawman proposal, which is different from a strawman argument.

They both have the same intent. A strawman proposal is put forward to be argued.

Except one is one put forward to be argued for the sake of moving the discussion forward by presenting an overly simplified form, whereas the other is set up to allegedly be an accurate interpretation which is set up with some glaring easily attackable flaws to be debunked by an alt of the poster.
So, you know, sort of the opposite.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#18 - 2012-10-16 21:43:03 UTC
Akita T wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
What you're talking about is a strawman proposal, which is different from a strawman argument.

They both have the same intent. A strawman proposal is put forward to be argued.

Except one is one put forward to be argued for the sake of moving the discussion forward by presenting an overly simplified form, whereas the other is set up to allegedly be an accurate interpretation which is set up with some glaring easily attackable flaws to be debunked by an alt of the poster.
So, you know, sort of the opposite.

So whilst you sought to provide a difference, you qualified it.

BOTH cases seek debate. That is the intent of a "strawman".

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Olleybear
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#19 - 2012-10-17 00:40:01 UTC
From Wikipedia:

Straw man
Quote:
A straw man, known in the UK as an Aunt Sally, is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.


Whereas:

Straw man proposal
Quote:
Not to be confused with a straw man argument.

A "straw-man proposal", also known as an Aunt Sally, is a brainstormed simple proposal intended to generate discussion of its disadvantages and to provoke the generation of new and better proposals. Often, a straw man document will be prepared by one or two people prior to kicking off a larger project. In this way, the team can jump start their discussions with a document that is likely to contain many, but not all the key aspects to be discussed. As the document is revised, it may be given other edition names such as the more solid-sounding "stone-man", "iron-man", and so on.


This appears to say the 'argument' isn't about seeking debate but refuting the original position by changing the argument to something else, unlike the 'proposal' which does seek debate to flesh out ideas.

When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.