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Dev blog: The Retribution of Team Super Friends

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Axl Borlara
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#861 - 2012-10-16 16:09:19 UTC
Villani Capelli wrote:

There are innocent beginner players. But they don't last very long, some of them quits after his fist highsec big ISK lose.


I think that's a case of (new) player expectations needing to be managed better.

High-sec does not mean safe.

The different levels of security affect the consequences to the attacker, not the safety of the victim.

One of the first things new players should see is a big notice pointing out that YOU ARE NOT SAFE ANYWHERE in game.
Even when you are docked, you can still be scammed out of all your isk and possessions.

Once that message gets across, it should go a long way to dealing with the other complaints.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#862 - 2012-10-16 16:10:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Villani Capelli wrote:
As I never played WoW, I will assume that the learning curve of both games are the same.
…and that is relevant, how, exactly? Aside from showing that you're fond of making assumptions that don't quite pan out, I mean…

Quote:
Sorry, I don't have a source
So that's even more assumptions then, and pretty silly and uninformative ones at that. Goodie.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#863 - 2012-10-16 16:16:10 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
heh no I don't take it personally, specially since you never mention which changes it are you think I make that are so big so I keep wondering what it is! you should maybe read my dev blogs (linked in my signature) and tell me what it is. I've even made some changes that only make things smaller, like small font in overview and compact member list in chat!

the only thing I remember you being mad at me about were the target bars being larger but I didn't make them larger, I was just trying to help and couldn't see difference (which I later realized was because it had been fixed by the person who broke them internally and was deployed to TQ soon after)

(maybe the font being larger too, but I didn't make the font, apparently they don't let programmers make fontsP)


Good, if you had been taking things personal.. you should've stayed off forums. P
And I'm glad you actually do read my posts, normally you never respond to them, so I just kept posting in your general direction. But since we have a dialogue here, and I'd be happy to highlight these issues.. is there a way to send you a mail?

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Bodega Cat
Expedition Spartica
#864 - 2012-10-16 16:20:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Bodega Cat
Karl Hobb, since no one has yet, i'll take a stab....


I suppose there's only one real "loophole":
1. Please explain why, if I have gained a kill right, I can activate that kill right with an alt and shoot myself to clear it.

This wouldn't be a loophole, it would be the intention as you activating the killright means you pay back into the system by giving the guy you ganked money back into his coffers. If he didn't price it enough to deter you or get anything back meaningful from his loss, then you essentially grief him twice, good on you, he is dumb.

The rest is merely "WTF was your thinking?":
2. Please explain why a "bounty hunter" would pay to activate a kill right in order to collect a bounty.

People like kill mails, and they also just like PVP. Specially rich players with lots of experience and knowledgeable skillsets. And if you are flying a lucrative enough ship at an inopportune time, perhaps they'll spend the money for the LOLZ.

3. Please explain why a "bounty hunter" would want other people able to shoot the target they're trying to collect a bounty on.
3a. Why the Suspect flag rather than starting a "legal" LE, or some other mechanic?

This is a good question. Because the bounty only pays on the KB, it would stand to reason a bounty hunter wouldn't want too many involved... However, if it only forces a 1v1, thats too easy to game for IMO. Either way, this is good to explore.

3a: One of the main goals is consequences. The suspect flag means a particular user has to fly around 30 days and either try and get it wiped, or fly cheap ships if he thinks he is going to get ganked, or have a friend haul stuff for him if he can't risk it etc. It will make him play differently as a result.


4. Please explain why penalties are front-loaded in the new system.

This paradigm causes real problems for (anyone who still does) low-sec ransoming because merely putting a point on someone's pod gains a kill right. At that point, why not just pod someone anyway? That question probably goes in the CW 2.0, but it is pretty heavily tied in with how kill rights are generated.

Good one, not really sure about this one as this does seem to directly impact how people operate in low sec on the reg.


I also want to edit in a point about a number 5 that someone brought up much earlier.

5. Star manipulating the value of an implant or module no one ever uses or needs by listing it for billions, and buying it over the course of weeks or months while trying to accrue the biggest bounty you possibly can. Once a bounty is applied, and the value of the item in question is set, Start blowing yourself up in the cheapest ship possible with the mod you manipulated to take the sizeable bounty yourself.
Ochiniwa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#865 - 2012-10-16 16:27:12 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:

....

3. Bounties can't be limited to just one bounty hunter. The whole point is the competition of getting that kill. I am not sure what the issue is with this one really...
.



I did some cutting here, but the bounty hunter thingy can be easily tackled in the way that the system should be implemented so that the one who has the kill-right can actually choose once and for all to:

1) Give kill rights to all players
2) Give kill rights to an alliance
3) Give kill rights to a corporation
4) Give kill rights to a player

If this could be implemented the kill rights could generate bounty hunters.

Cheers
Ochi
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#866 - 2012-10-16 16:27:25 UTC
Bodega Cat wrote:
Karl Hobb, since no one has yet, i'll take a stab....

I'm waiting for CCP, but thanks.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#867 - 2012-10-16 16:28:29 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Bodega Cat wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:

Can we get a response to the blatant loopholes in the killrights system? Or is that something that needs to be discussed more in-house?

List them in bullet format please?

That would be wonderful!
Karl Hobb, please list the loopholes that you find blatant in the killrights system. I will answer you the best I can.

- Can I stalk someone for up to 30 days and activate the killright every 15 minutes until he either gets killed or performs seppuku by alt?
- If not, can I set the killright price at 1b and keep purchasing and activating it with an alt and keep sending the 1b back to my own alt to keep stalking the guy?
- Why should I even be capable of activating the killright on my own char via an alt?
- Why aren't the killrights transferable to a single person or a corp, and only to a single person or a corp, so as to actually facilitate bountyhunters, which is what bountyhunters and gankers etc asked for in the first place, instead of this "everyone's a vigilante" system which makes the concept of trying to become a reputable bountyhunter/bountyhunter corp completely irrelevant?
- Why does pointing (not killing) a pod give someone a killright, while killing a ship just makes you suspect?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
mkint
#868 - 2012-10-16 16:31:17 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Bodega Cat wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:

Can we get a response to the blatant loopholes in the killrights system? Or is that something that needs to be discussed more in-house?

List them in bullet format please?

That would be wonderful!
Karl Hobb, please list the loopholes that you find blatant in the killrights system. I will answer you the best I can.

What? Have you not been reading this thread? Is every post here a waste?

THE PERSON WHO HAD KILLRIGHTS AGAINST HIM HAS MORE INCENTIVE TO BUY THEM THAN ANYONE ELSE IN THE GAME.

The first rule of economics is 'people respond to incentives.' The incentives in place mean killrights are broken already.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Bodega Cat
Expedition Spartica
#869 - 2012-10-16 16:34:18 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:
Bodega Cat wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:

Can we get a response to the blatant loopholes in the killrights system? Or is that something that needs to be discussed more in-house?

List them in bullet format please?

That would be wonderful!
Karl Hobb, please list the loopholes that you find blatant in the killrights system. I will answer you the best I can.

- Can I stalk someone for up to 30 days and activate the killright every 15 minutes until he either gets killed or performs seppuku by alt?
- If not, can I set the killright price at 1b and keep purchasing and activating it with an alt and keep sending the 1b back to my own alt to keep stalking the guy?
- Why should I even be capable of activating the killright on my own char via an alt?
- Why aren't the killrights transferable to a single person or a corp, and only to a single person or a corp, so as to actually facilitate bountyhunters, which is what bountyhunters and gankers etc asked for in the first place, instead of this "everyone's a vigilante" system which makes the concept of trying to become a reputable bountyhunter/bountyhunter corp completely irrelevant?
- Why does pointing (not killing) a pod give someone a killright, while killing a ship just makes you suspect?


Now these are the ones that need to be noticed.

Theirs a lot of noise in this whole thread, but these i'm actually curious about.
CCP Tallest
C C P
C C P Alliance
#870 - 2012-10-16 16:35:24 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:
Karl Hobb, please list the loopholes that you find blatant in the killrights system. I will answer you the best I can.

I thought you people actually read these threads...

I suppose there's only one real "loophole":
1. Please explain why, if I have gained a kill right, I can activate that kill right with an alt and shoot myself to clear it.

This whole issue would have not been if kill rights were handled through the contract system from the start rather than through some later iteration (FW, I'm looking at you).

The rest is merely "WTF was your thinking?":
2. Please explain why a "bounty hunter" would pay to activate a kill right in order to collect a bounty.
3. Please explain why a "bounty hunter" would want other people able to shoot the target they're trying to collect a bounty on.
3a. Why the Suspect flag rather than starting a "legal" LE, or some other mechanic?

The thinking behind the questions above being that a bounty hunter gets paid to kill someone (collecting a bounty) and, short of ganking them, is likely doing it through kill right mechanics which, if the cost is low enough, anyone can activate at any time and anyone can shoot the target at any time, potentially collecting the bounty.

It seems pretty damn silly.

4. Please explain why penalties are front-loaded in the new system.

This paradigm causes real problems for (anyone who still does) low-sec ransoming because merely putting a point on someone's pod gains a kill right. At that point, why not just pod someone anyway? That question probably goes in the CW 2.0, but it is pretty heavily tied in with how kill rights are generated.

That's all of my talking points for now (I actually have work to get to), others may be able to elaborate on their own.


Of course we read the devblog feedback threads. To suggest otherwise is kind of insulting. We reply to some things to clarify, we reply to other things to have a back and forth discussion, but mostly we just read the discussion that is happening between players. It does help us a lot, so please keep posting even when you don't see devs replying.

I wanted you to clarify which "loopholes" you were referring to, because several things have been called out as "loopholes" in the thread (most of them wrongly so).

1. I assume that by "gained a kill right" you mean that one of your victims has put his kill right on you up for sale. As you say, we do have an iteration planned on being able to transfer your kill right to specific players or player entities. The fact is that we want to do both. We want you to be able to sell your kill right openly and we want you to specify who can buy them. We decided to do open kill right sales first because we felt that it creates gameplay for more people than kill right transfering. Transfering kill rights directly is still on the agenda, but we could not fit both into the winter expansion.
Also,
CCP Tallest wrote:
The owner of the kill right sets the price. If your "friend" (alt) is willing to pay that price, then your old victim just got some money back to compensate him for being the target of your undoubtedly heinous criminal act.


2. So that he can kill the target in high sec.

3. Because he is in a fleet.

3a. Like I said earlier in this thread
CCP Tallest wrote:
We are using the suspect flag for 2 reasons: One is to allow your fleet to help you with your revenge. Two is that we are trying to move away from single player to single player aggression flags, as you can see with the new crimewatch mechanics.


4. Using the criminal flag makes the whole system easier to understand. You do the crime, your victim gets a kill right. As for ransoming, it's still a criminal act, even if it is more merciful than podding.

[b]★ EVE Game Designer ★ ♥ Team Super Friends ♥[/b]
Bodega Cat
Expedition Spartica
#871 - 2012-10-16 16:36:12 UTC
mkint wrote:
Have you not been reading this thread? Is every post here a waste?

THE PERSON WHO HAD KILLRIGHTS AGAINST HIM HAS MORE INCENTIVE TO BUY THEM THAN ANYONE ELSE IN THE GAME.

The first rule of economics is 'people respond to incentives.' The incentives in place mean killrights are broken already.


90% of them are a waste, including yours. Thats why its nice 40 pages in to do a gut check, and get a good list going of the REAL issues (cause their are plenty).

If you price your killright accordingly, It makes zero sense for the ganker to buy off his own rights ever.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#872 - 2012-10-16 16:41:08 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:
I haven't had the chance to read the entire thread, but have gone through and read the DEV posts. One thing I haven't seen you guys respond to is the idea to give the target of a kill right being activated a short warning before LAWLGANKED.

Specifically, I'm thinking a timer that shows up telling them they have X seconds until they go suspect because a kill right was activated against them. Even if it was short, say 10-30 seconds, it at least a) informs them they're going suspect because of a kill right being activated, not some magic wonder bug, and b) it gives the target a fighting chance before the entire system opens up on them.

Personally, I'd rather see buying kill rights open up a LE between the buyer and the target, and to allow everyone to buy the kill rights simultaneously. That way, if you want to be a badass that hunts down mean people with kill rights, you have to actually stand your ground rather than call in the whole world (ie Jita).

Any dev thoughts on this?


Maybe also give suicide gank targets a advanced warning? Oh yea i forgot this game isnt fair Blink


Yes, it's not. And gank targets already got advanced warning tools. Dscan, scouts, information, etc. I've ganked plenty of people in highsec. At gates, planets, belts, missions, etc. Every single one of them could've been avoided, if the targets just had a slight bit of situational awareness and knowledge. That being said, I've myself also left people AFK in highsec in a variety of ways, and I could've been ganked easily then. I would've accepted that loss, I didn't take necessary precautions. That's exactly the same lesson the gank targets get when they die. That EVE isn't fair. P(I've offered to teach people how to avoid ganks too, you know that more or less neither have taken up that offer?)

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#873 - 2012-10-16 16:41:23 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
3. Please explain why a "bounty hunter" would want other people able to shoot the target they're trying to collect a bounty on.

3. Because he is in a fleet.

Let's pretend I'm Joe ******* who shot a guy to death in his mackinaw. Let's pretend Joe Space Popsicle put up his killright for public sale. Let's pretend I go to Jita. I undock, some lone guy activates the killright.

Are you going to tell me that everyone else who's now suddenly shooting me are "in a fleet" with "the bountyhunter"?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
mkint
#874 - 2012-10-16 16:50:33 UTC
Bodega Cat wrote:
mkint wrote:
Have you not been reading this thread? Is every post here a waste?

THE PERSON WHO HAD KILLRIGHTS AGAINST HIM HAS MORE INCENTIVE TO BUY THEM THAN ANYONE ELSE IN THE GAME.

The first rule of economics is 'people respond to incentives.' The incentives in place mean killrights are broken already.


90% of them are a waste, including yours. Thats why its nice 40 pages in to do a gut check, and get a good list going of the REAL issues (cause their are plenty).

If you price your killright accordingly, It makes zero sense for the ganker to buy off his own rights ever.

That's stupid. It does not change that the single person with the absolute MOST incentive to claim that killright is the guy it's against. The MOST a 3rd party can gain is a miniscule bounty, maybe 10 mil isk. The target stands to lose a couple hundred mil if he doesn't erase the killright. There is no price you can set the killright at to make 10 mil be worth more than hundreds of mil. Lrn 2 math.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Bodega Cat
Expedition Spartica
#875 - 2012-10-16 16:51:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Bodega Cat
Lord Zim wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
3. Please explain why a "bounty hunter" would want other people able to shoot the target they're trying to collect a bounty on.

3. Because he is in a fleet.

Let's pretend I'm Joe ******* who shot a guy to death in his mackinaw. Let's pretend Joe Space Popsicle put up his killright for public sale. Let's pretend I go to Jita. I undock, some lone guy activates the killright.

Are you going to tell me that everyone else who's now suddenly shooting me are "in a fleet" with "the bountyhunter"?


Well I would imagine in the next update, if you have a killright and you wander into Jita with no plan, it would be the equivalent of a hulk miner wandering into Low Sec....

But I know this doesn't answer your question.
Bodega Cat
Expedition Spartica
#876 - 2012-10-16 16:57:24 UTC
mkint wrote:
Bodega Cat wrote:
mkint wrote:
Have you not been reading this thread? Is every post here a waste?

THE PERSON WHO HAD KILLRIGHTS AGAINST HIM HAS MORE INCENTIVE TO BUY THEM THAN ANYONE ELSE IN THE GAME.

The first rule of economics is 'people respond to incentives.' The incentives in place mean killrights are broken already.


90% of them are a waste, including yours. Thats why its nice 40 pages in to do a gut check, and get a good list going of the REAL issues (cause their are plenty).

If you price your killright accordingly, It makes zero sense for the ganker to buy off his own rights ever.

That's stupid. It does not change that the single person with the absolute MOST incentive to claim that killright is the guy it's against. The MOST a 3rd party can gain is a miniscule bounty, maybe 10 mil isk. The target stands to lose a couple hundred mil if he doesn't erase the killright. There is no price you can set the killright at to make 10 mil be worth more than hundreds of mil. Lrn 2 math.


Your wrong. You price your kill right with a respectable amount within the contexts of the loss that spurred it.

If kill rights are flat and cheap, then you are not pricing it accordingly. All you are going to do is promote hack job trigger fingers to try and do it and fail, and let the pirate clear it himself with an alt, or flat out let the pirate buy it off himself.

If the kill right is priced too high, thats fine, it means the pirate has to fly around for 30 days with a cap on how attractive he flys.
Or a rich Ace just might pay 60 mil or so to take a stab at your tech3 you are buzzing around in...

Consequences.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#877 - 2012-10-16 17:07:47 UTC
Bodega Cat wrote:
Well I would imagine in the next update, if you have a killright and you wander into Jita with no plan, it would be the equivalent of a hulk miner wandering into Low Sec....

But I know this doesn't answer your question.

You're right it doesn't, since you could readily replace "jita" with any gate and station (and if we're honest poco, planet, sun, moon, safespot etc, but let's stick to where there's a natural collection of random people) in hisec. It was just the quickest example I could think of offhand where there's always a ton of random people.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Balsakian McGiggles
Integritas
xXPlease Pandemic Citizens Reloaded Alliance.Xx
#878 - 2012-10-16 17:08:21 UTC
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:

When Retribution launches, you are resetting bounties, will you reset killrights as well? Currently it is a ton easier to get killrights, and mine are probably going to spill over.


Should definitely reset kill rights as well if you are going to reset bounties.
voetius
Grundrisse
#879 - 2012-10-16 17:24:01 UTC
As Lord Zim said above with the Jita scenario, I thought about this as well.

Disclaimer: for most of this year I've had varying numbers of killrights outstanding against me so I'm not going to say whether I think the proposed "killrights generate suspect flag" mechanic is right or wrong as I could rightly be accused of bias.

If I was someone that wanted to get a good chance of having the killright collected I would hang around in Jita with a friend (could be done with an alt dual-boxed as well). Have the target watchlisted and tracked with locators.

Some of the other large hubs like Amarr could be used as well, anywhere where there are remote sensor boosted instalocking tornados or high sec mercs on the undock.

As soon as the target enters system, sell the killright to the friend, setting the suspect flag, target undocks from Jita and *boom*.

I might be incorrect here if the target needs to be in space but that just means the person "selling" the killright just needs a bit of patience and keep trying to "sell" the killright to his buddy.
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#880 - 2012-10-16 17:24:31 UTC
Villani Capelli wrote:
As I never played WoW, I will assume that the learning curve of both games are the same.


I take it you've never seen this, then.