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Dev blog: The Retribution of Team Super Friends

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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#821 - 2012-10-15 23:44:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Gris X wrote:
Why would someone spend the money to trigger the kill right in that situation.? A noob maybe once, and then will wise up for the next time...

That is exactly my point. After the initial couple of weeks where the new system will be heavily used by people getting adjusted to the changes, it will become the same thing that can-flagging became a few weeks after it was introduced many years ago. The only people who fall for can flips today are the worst miners and mission runners; the ones who are completely oblivious to their surroundings, gameplay mechanics, and simply log in for three hours every day to see the number in their wallets slowly climb up.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Villani Capelli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#822 - 2012-10-15 23:49:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Villani Capelli
Villani Capelli wrote:
My 5 cents, sorry about Engrish:

- Technically, create a templated item called Kill Right. This item will have “targetPlayerId”, “iskAmount” and “expirationDate” fields;

- When a ship is destroyed that would give a kill right, the system takes the ISK amount lost and divide proportionally with every player involved with the kill, by damage caused to the target. Number of players should have a hard max limit to avoid 1000 players doing 10 damage each to a ship and a creation of 1000 kill rights;

- Of course CCP will have to use some kind of less exploitable ISK value calculator, to avoid market manipulation. I think they are working on it;

- The system creates one Kill Right item for each attacker and delivers somehow to the killed player. Maybe drop it at your home station, claimable, I don’t know how;

- This kill right item would be a consumable that can be used several times. When you use this item, you gain one of the following, to be decided which implementation is better:

1- Every time that the kill right target is at the same space pocket that you are, they automagically get a suspect flag. Everyone can attack (reusing flag system, without 1x1 flags);

2- You gain a 1x1 flag against the target. Only you or corp can attack;

- When the ship of the target of kill right is destroyed, the system check everyone involved in the kill and discount the ISK amount from every Kill Right item. The item vanishes after X days or ISK amount <= 0. This is problematic, I still don’t think of an easy way to “find” every Kill Right item owned by the players involved with the kill. Maybe the suspect flag could store the original Kill Right item id;

- As other templated items, only tradable by Contracts. Implement new search fields to search by target name and ISK amount.


Other advantages:

- Lore and environment integration: the Kill Right will be an item, an authorization given to you by the police;

- CCP can choose to allow trading or not, by contracts. Trading will create a new market, but can also allow friends of the target to buy and hold the kill right until it expires. If CCP implements the activation of the global suspect flag path when using a kill right item, It will be a nice item to hold instead of trade;

- Probably the target will also have bounties on him (new system), which will make the kill right more attractive for purchase by future bounty hunting corps;

- If you illegally kill a low value frigate, you probably will lose more ISK when you are killed though kill right activation. But since you didn't destroy a lot of ISK, your death will cause the Kill Right item to fulfill and vanish;

- if you destroy 1 billion worth of ISK, probably your kill right will last the entire 30 days (or other period), even if you get killed using low valued ships several times during this period. Fair;

- Tech complexity lies on the creation, activation and fulfillment of this new Kill Right item. The rest remain unchanged, no big interface changes.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#823 - 2012-10-16 05:47:59 UTC
Hint part:
Read, understand and ask from yourself why did I reinvent the wheel.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Bountyhunting_Improvements_%28CSM%29

Warning part:
If bounty hunting goes live as suggested in devblog you will have $****$torm ahead (again).

Total fail of fail boat highlights part 1:
People are not supposed to get kill rights unless they actually get killed. Engaging someone and killing someone are 2 different things.

Total fail of fail boat highlights part 2:
People are not supposed to get any global criminal flags (or suspect flags as you put it) randomly and without warning just for the kicks. If bounty hunters have accepted contract and have the derived kill right that is well enough for bounty hunting feature. Leave the flagging to crime watch and actual in game events what take place when the fight is on.

End words:
I will not mention about this after this post. I tried to cure your Unified inventory project during development but failed miserably. Now I just say this once and look what comes out from the pipe. If it is junk I just quit EvE for another 6-12 months and wish you merry xmas and happy new year.

Nuff said.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Villani Capelli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#824 - 2012-10-16 06:03:50 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Hint part:

Total fail of fail boat highlights part 2:
People are not supposed to get any global criminal flags (or suspect flags as you put it) randomly and without warning just for the kicks. If bounty hunters have accepted contract and have the derived kill right that is well enough for bounty hunting feature. Leave the flagging to crime watch and actual in game events what take place when the fight is on.



By your logic, highsec players should be shielded from suicide ganking too. They lose ships without any warnings, with little consequences for the player who suicide killed them.

I'm not saying that I agree with the current proposed system, I have my own suggestions. But if you CHOOSE to illegally kill someone in highsec, I think its fair enough that you receive the same treatment. Or be away from highsec for 30 days.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#825 - 2012-10-16 06:45:09 UTC
Villani Capelli wrote:
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Hint part:

Total fail of fail boat highlights part 2:
People are not supposed to get any global criminal flags (or suspect flags as you put it) randomly and without warning just for the kicks. If bounty hunters have accepted contract and have the derived kill right that is well enough for bounty hunting feature. Leave the flagging to crime watch and actual in game events what take place when the fight is on.



By your logic, highsec players should be shielded from suicide ganking too. They lose ships without any warnings, with little consequences for the player who suicide killed them.

I'm not saying that I agree with the current proposed system, I have my own suggestions. But if you CHOOSE to illegally kill someone in highsec, I think its fair enough that you receive the same treatment. Or be away from highsec for 30 days.


First of all, how is getting blown up by CONCORD not a consequence?

Now, let's make some comparisons:

The gank victim has situational awareness (local, d-scan, standings for known ganking characters/corporations) as a warning mechanism. The ganker doesn't, because instead of select people (usually outlaws flying destroyers), he is susceptible to engagement from anyone.

The gank victim receives an insurance payout. The ganker does not, and also loses security status.

The gank victim has a chance of losing his ship, because not all ganks are successful. The ganker is guaranteed to lose his ship to CONCORD.

The gank victim is engaged by a limited amount of people. The ganker can be engaged by everyone in the system.

The gank victim is able to deter ganks by fitting a tank, or not carrying too much stuff in a single load. The ganker can't deter assault through kill rights because all factors, such as the kill right cost, are out of his control.

The gank victim only takes a loss if the gank is successful. The ganker receives all of his losses and penalties up front, the instant he fires his first shot.

After looking at these comparisons, are you still willing to claim that the ganker is not getting equal treatment, or in fact worse treatment, than his victim?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Xylorn Hasher
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#826 - 2012-10-16 07:32:56 UTC
Bodega Cat wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:
I haven't had the chance to read the entire thread, but have gone through and read the DEV posts. One thing I haven't seen you guys respond to is the idea to give the target of a kill right being activated a short warning before LAWLGANKED.

Specifically, I'm thinking a timer that shows up telling them they have X seconds until they go suspect because a kill right was activated against them. Even if it was short, say 10-30 seconds, it at least a) informs them they're going suspect because of a kill right being activated, not some magic wonder bug, and b) it gives the target a fighting chance before the entire system opens up on them.

Personally, I'd rather see buying kill rights open up a LE between the buyer and the target, and to allow everyone to buy the kill rights simultaneously. That way, if you want to be a badass that hunts down mean people with kill rights, you have to actually stand your ground rather than call in the whole world (ie Jita).

Any dev thoughts on this?


Without a nerf to warp core stab's, this would make engagements irrelevant as pirates would fly small ships with them exclusively. Its too easy to make an un pointable ship for 1v1's and just LOL off all suspect timers and warp around a system till it clears.

Or you just stay farrrr away from HIC's


If you use Warp Core Stabs on combat ship you aren't a Pirate, you are nothing...

All my posts are made shortly after Marihuana consumption.
Villani Capelli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#827 - 2012-10-16 07:33:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Villani Capelli
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

First of all, how is getting blown up by CONCORD not a consequence?

Now, let's make some comparisons:

The gank victim has situational awareness (local, d-scan, standings for known ganking characters/corporations) as a warning mechanism. The ganker doesn't, because instead of select people (usually outlaws flying destroyers), he is susceptible to engagement from anyone.

The gank victim receives an insurance payout. The ganker does not, and also loses security status.

The gank victim has a chance of losing his ship, because not all ganks are successful. The ganker is guaranteed to lose his ship to CONCORD.

The gank victim is engaged by a limited amount of people. The ganker can be engaged by everyone in the system.

The gank victim is able to deter ganks by fitting a tank, or not carrying too much stuff in a single load. The ganker can't deter assault through kill rights because all factors, such as the kill right cost, are out of his control.

The gank victim only takes a loss if the gank is successful. The ganker receives all of his losses and penalties up front, the instant he fires his first shot.

After looking at these comparisons, are you still willing to claim that the ganker is not getting equal treatment, or in fact worse treatment, than his victim?


Great theory, but not what happens in practice. If a non-EVE player read your post, he will think that you practically can’t lose ISK in high-sec, which is not true.

There are several other cases, but a simple one: bunch of low value ships with smartbombs, get to a tradehub and blow a transport ship full of valuable items.

- The gank victim has situational awareness: none;
- The gank victim receives an insurance payout: not from the cargo;
- The gank victim has a chance of losing his ship: usually, when you gank someone you ensure success and low risk for you;
- The gank victim is able to deter ganks by fitting a tank: not in this case;
- The gank victim only takes a loss if the gank is successful: usually, when you gank someone you ensure success and low risk for you.

Today, the consequence is: lose a low value ship, a bit of security status and keep away from highsec for a short amount of time.

There is no safe zone in EVE. Several other games out there provide a safezone for carebears to play, they are a huge slice of the company income.

But I’m not in favor of a 100% safe zone. I’m just in favor of harder consequences for the aggressing side. Like considering the total ISK lost in the mix, as I posted before. And keeping chars away from highsec for more time.

Some aspects of this game I would like to see gone forever: can flipping, loot steal and other minor baits. Those things keep giving new players a very bad impression about EVE. Hopefully, the new global suspect flag will resolve those issues.

If you want to PvP, go to null or lowsec and PvP.
Xylorn Hasher
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#828 - 2012-10-16 07:53:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Xylorn Hasher
Gris X wrote:
Anton Zuber wrote:


You're overlooking a much more dangerous truth. Suicides. If your bounty is high enough, and you are in an expensive enough ship, say your L4 mission ship worth 2 bil, they can collect a 400m bounty from killing you. That pays for a pretty intimidating suicide ship (or team) from the bounty alone, not to mention the salvage from your wreck.

You thought high sec was scary for bears before? It's about to get a whole lot worse.

Hmm, suiciding in high sec against a heavily tanked ship is still a risk that may not bear any fruits... I do not think it will as easy as ganking mining ships or stuff like that...
I am not saying it can't be done, but I do not see this becoming a norm or easy to do....


Its very easy. Usually a few Arty Strike Tornados will kill any T1 / faction / T2 Battleship in just one volley.
But its all about costs - profit calculations as always.

From what I understood ammount of ISK payed upon ship kill is calculated as: "Killed_Ship_Value * A" where A < 1. So you cant make ISKs upon killing yourself with alt cuz you will loose more expensive ship than the ISK ammount payed from Bounty.

All my posts are made shortly after Marihuana consumption.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#829 - 2012-10-16 08:05:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Villani Capelli wrote:
There are several other cases, but a simple one: bunch of low value ships with smartbombs, get to a tradehub and blow a transport ship full of valuable items.

Just by reading that sentence I know that you have no idea how ganking works. First of all, you don't use smartbombs to gank in hubs. You don't use smartbombs to gank in empire period. You can't activate the damn things within range of stations or gates. Even if you do use smartbombs, anything size but the largest is extremely short-range and low-damage. Battleship-sized smartbombs go on battleships. Battleships are not low-value ships, especially when you consider the lack of insurance. Now...

- The gank victim has situational awareness: none;
False. Overview shows flashies. Also, he can eliminate gank attempts by scouting ahead of himself.

- The gank victim receives an insurance payout: not from the cargo;
The gank victim chooses how much to carry. Just because some people put their life savings into one haul doesn't mean that the game should be balanced around their stupidity.

- The gank victim has a chance of losing his ship: usually, when you gank someone you ensure success and low risk for you;
"Usually".

- The gank victim is able to deter ganks by fitting a tank: not in this case;
The gank victim can't fit tank modules on his hauler? Really?

- The gank victim only takes a loss if the gank is successful: usually, when you gank someone you ensure success and low risk for you.
"Usually."

Villani Capelli wrote:
But I’m not in favor of a 100% safe zone. I’m just in favor of harder consequences for the aggressing side. Like considering the total ISK lost in the mix, as I posted before.

So maybe I should ask CCP to put an invincibility switch on my Vindicator, just because it costs a lot? The aggressing side is already massively disadvantaged when it comes to ganking. The only thing that makes ganking worth the time is the stupidity of people who shove a billion ISK worth of stuff into an 800,000-ISK ship, and then don't even bother to put shield extenders on it.

Villani Capelli wrote:
Some aspects of this game I would like to see gone forever: can flipping, loot steal and other minor baits.
...
If you want to PvP, go to null or lowsec and PvP.

Your attitude is literally poison for this game.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#830 - 2012-10-16 08:09:43 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Villani Capelli wrote:
There are several other cases, but a simple one: bunch of low value ships with smartbombs, get to a tradehub and blow a transport ship full of valuable items.

Just by reading that sentence I know that you have no idea how ganking works. First of all, you don't use smartbombs to gank in hubs. You don't use smartbombs to gank in empire period. You can't activate the damn things within range of stations or gates. Even if you do use smartbombs, anything size but the largest is extremely short-range and low-damage. Battleship-sized smartbombs go on battleships. Battleships are not low-value ships, especially when you consider the lack of insurance. Now...

Actually, it has been used to kill off clumps of hulks during the ice interdiction iirc. I'm not sure if the orca they were humping were killed off in the same smartbombing run, but it was a tactic which worked in very, very specific situations such as ice miners, and still required a fair bit of BSes to pull off. I'm pretty sure it was more expensive than the more common way of ganking mining ships, but it certainly did have a certain shock-and-awe factor to it.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#831 - 2012-10-16 08:34:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Lord Zim wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Villani Capelli wrote:
There are several other cases, but a simple one: bunch of low value ships with smartbombs, get to a tradehub and blow a transport ship full of valuable items.

Just by reading that sentence I know that you have no idea how ganking works. First of all, you don't use smartbombs to gank in hubs. You don't use smartbombs to gank in empire period. You can't activate the damn things within range of stations or gates. Even if you do use smartbombs, anything size but the largest is extremely short-range and low-damage. Battleship-sized smartbombs go on battleships. Battleships are not low-value ships, especially when you consider the lack of insurance. Now...

Actually, it has been used to kill off clumps of hulks during the ice interdiction iirc. I'm not sure if the orca they were humping were killed off in the same smartbombing run, but it was a tactic which worked in very, very specific situations such as ice miners, and still required a fair bit of BSes to pull off. I'm pretty sure it was more expensive than the more common way of ganking mining ships, but it certainly did have a certain shock-and-awe factor to it.

I was addressing his claim that low-value ships fielding smartbombs are used to gank haulers for profit. That simply doesn't happen in high-sec, therefore, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Smartbombs are an exception for ganking barges, so I wasn't entirely accurate in my reply. I was really thinking of smartbombs in relation to gates and stations, where you can find profitable haulers.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Kagumichan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#832 - 2012-10-16 13:20:37 UTC
Just a quick question...

Will this system also operate with Dust players? If my Khanid sniper is in a match with someone who's EVE corp or alliance has a bounty on it, then do I get a small ISK payout every time I blow their head off?

New bounty system sounds awesome btw <3 Makes people more conscious of who they're shooting at.
Jehan Markow
Wu Si Yuan Luojishan
#833 - 2012-10-16 13:39:57 UTC
A lot of these changes look good, and are sorely needed.

However, you're ignoring the biggest flaw in the bounty system. That is, any player with a bounty can still kill his own toon via another alt and collect bounty on it. Your idea about restricting who may access bounties sounds like it shows some promise, but it won't make a difference until you have a functional model to present to the players. Until this loophole closes, bounties will continue to be mostly a joke.
-JM
CCP Paradox
#834 - 2012-10-16 13:49:01 UTC
Kagumichan wrote:
Just a quick question...

Will this system also operate with Dust players? If my Khanid sniper is in a match with someone who's EVE corp or alliance has a bounty on it, then do I get a small ISK payout every time I blow their head off?

New bounty system sounds awesome btw <3 Makes people more conscious of who they're shooting at.


At this moment in time, no. You also won't be able to place Bounty on DUST characters. I can't speak for the future however.

CCP Paradox | EVE QA | Team Phenomenon

Space Magician
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#835 - 2012-10-16 13:56:46 UTC
Jehan Markow wrote:
A lot of these changes look good, and are sorely needed.

However, you're ignoring the biggest flaw in the bounty system. That is, any player with a bounty can still kill his own toon via another alt and collect bounty on it. Your idea about restricting who may access bounties sounds like it shows some promise, but it won't make a difference until you have a functional model to present to the players. Until this loophole closes, bounties will continue to be mostly a joke.
-JM



Collect a bounty that's 20% of the isk they lose in the kill.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#836 - 2012-10-16 14:08:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
CCP Paradox wrote:
Kagumichan wrote:
Just a quick question...

Will this system also operate with Dust players? If my Khanid sniper is in a match with someone who's EVE corp or alliance has a bounty on it, then do I get a small ISK payout every time I blow their head off?

New bounty system sounds awesome btw <3 Makes people more conscious of who they're shooting at.


At this moment in time, no. You also won't be able to place Bounty on DUST characters. I can't speak for the future however.

Can we get a response to the blatant loopholes in the killrights system? Or is that something that needs to be discussed more in-house?

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#837 - 2012-10-16 14:11:56 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
CCP Paradox wrote:
Kagumichan wrote:
Just a quick question...

Will this system also operate with Dust players? If my Khanid sniper is in a match with someone who's EVE corp or alliance has a bounty on it, then do I get a small ISK payout every time I blow their head off?

New bounty system sounds awesome btw <3 Makes people more conscious of who they're shooting at.


At this moment in time, no. You also won't be able to place Bounty on DUST characters. I can't speak for the future however.

Can we get a response to the blatant loopholes in the killrights system? Or is that something that needs to be discussed more in-house?

Silly wabbit, those aren't loopholes, those are key features.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Bodega Cat
Expedition Spartica
#838 - 2012-10-16 14:13:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Bodega Cat
Xylorn Hasher wrote:
Bodega Cat wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:
I haven't had the chance to read the entire thread, but have gone through and read the DEV posts. One thing I haven't seen you guys respond to is the idea to give the target of a kill right being activated a short warning before LAWLGANKED.

Specifically, I'm thinking a timer that shows up telling them they have X seconds until they go suspect because a kill right was activated against them. Even if it was short, say 10-30 seconds, it at least a) informs them they're going suspect because of a kill right being activated, not some magic wonder bug, and b) it gives the target a fighting chance before the entire system opens up on them.

Personally, I'd rather see buying kill rights open up a LE between the buyer and the target, and to allow everyone to buy the kill rights simultaneously. That way, if you want to be a badass that hunts down mean people with kill rights, you have to actually stand your ground rather than call in the whole world (ie Jita).

Any dev thoughts on this?


Without a nerf to warp core stab's, this would make engagements irrelevant as pirates would fly small ships with them exclusively. Its too easy to make an un pointable ship for 1v1's and just LOL off all suspect timers and warp around a system till it clears.

Or you just stay farrrr away from HIC's


If you use Warp Core Stabs on combat ship you aren't a Pirate, you are nothing...


If you are baiting people to activate a kill right, with no intentions of fighting a 1v1 and just outlasting it, after this update why wouldn't you?

Remember, this post was in the context of people suggesting the kill right activation only allows a single individual to go toe to toe with a single pirate.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#839 - 2012-10-16 14:37:13 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
Can we get a response to the blatant loopholes in the killrights system? Or is that something that needs to be discussed more in-house?

Silly wabbit, those aren't loopholes, those are key features.

C'mon, man, I'm actively trying to be naive enough to think I'll get an answer...

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#840 - 2012-10-16 14:42:18 UTC
Sorry. :~(

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat