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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Starr FFox
Boring Co.
#4721 - 2012-10-16 13:49:45 UTC
Grats on the genocide of the caldarirace. Hml damage was crap before now it will be pathetic. Can we get our heavy missile skills sp back and respecialize it hams? Hml was a long train with support skills. I now have to crosstrain into another races ships. Caldari have always sucked at pvp this will make it even tougher to have a caldari pilot in a fleet unless they are ecming. Are. Gonna nerf that too while you are at it? Are u gonna nerf other races long range weapons like aetillery so they only do like 275 damage as well...... Didnt think so. Way to go ccp ...... Tears yeah tears will flow on behalf of all caldari pilots as they have to crosstrain or stick to ecm or possibly pve. Pvp will no longer be viable as if drakes were op lolz. A drake on the battlefield is no more than a distraction unless you have blobs of them.think my drake has around 377 dpsmwhile my maelstrom fitedmwith artys have around 1100 or something, at even a greater range, so lets nerf hmls so they have shorter range one damage type bonus so everyone with a brain knows what hardener to throw on, and make it less than 300 damage.....huh?
Lili Lu
#4722 - 2012-10-16 13:59:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:

Fozzie, can you comment on the rumors spread by some you are attached to a certain political block and may have personal interest in this topic?


We base our balancing decisions on the good of the game, not the interest of any specific alliances. I'm one member of the whole design team that collectively signs off on any changes and we have an internal affairs department that is in charge of protecting against any unethical conduct.

If anyone has any specific concerns with evidence of bias they should contact the CCP IA department, but I can assure you that I'm not in the pocket of any ingame interests and I think my record so far supports that fact.

Quite right Fozzie. You have to be polite. Because of your position. But I don't Lol

Hey Noemi, for the sake of argument, let's entertain your stupid adherence to this "rumor". Do you even know that PL was one of the first entities to fly both Drake fleet and Tengu fleets? They are usually on the cutting edge of combat tactics. You know how many years ago both of those things appeared? Yeah it was "years" ago for both. PL would have no need to nerf HMs to combat anyone because they themselves have had the ability to use them for a long time. I know this not only from reading forums and killboards, but also from having flown allied to them and having been on the receiving end of PL fleets in my eve career.

You however, keep showing your cluelessness by accusing Fozzie of somehow wanting to nerf HMs purely to aid a PL also somehow desperately in need of this nerf. You should really stop posting your bullshit.

edit - Ah, and excellent whine posts Borascus and Starr FFox. So much bad in each post I'm not sure if you two are really serious.Lol One could of course theoretically foresee the level of butthurt a much needed change such as this would create, but it is still an incredibly funny thing when you do in fact see the actual whine posts.ShockedWhat?
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#4723 - 2012-10-16 14:01:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Major Killz wrote:


I'm against the changes to the Hurricane, but its not so big of a deal that it would warrant long conversations with TERRIBUBBLE players.


Also, like always. Many are behind the META of combat. The Hurricane is being phased out because of tier 3's.


Well based on your asb hawks performance against my enyo a few days ago i have come to the conclusion that you are actually the "terribubble" player.

As for cane being replaced by tiers 3s... Maybe this argument is somewhat valid when comparing the arty cane to tier 3 however when fitting the the ship in a more conventional role it's still by far the mot versatile of the bcs. You've got reasonable ehp values (60k+) when armor fit on top of 2x webs, and nuets. The armor cane really does not have much competition in the current bc lineup as it' the runaway obvious choice. It's been unquestionably overpowered for years now and i expect further nerfs to the ship or significant buffs to comparable bcs before next summer's xpack.



http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14863453 This engagement, right?

Yes! You are indeed pr0 and I am terribubble. Congratulations!

I wish you the best of luck in your delusional world of PR0 and grats on winning... Maybe you spend some time and read those comments that was done right after the fight and acknowledging loss and my mistakes. I suppose your single achievement of esploding one ship is worth mentioning over someone else engaging and esploding mutliples on grid. Irrespective of my errors that day.

The fact I even engaged and didn't cont. to ignore you and warp around while doing my work and having the meeting I was in was because of Z WARRIOR spirits.You know! Instead of just focusing on other responsibilities, I BATTOL.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4724 - 2012-10-16 14:03:03 UTC
Starr FFox wrote:
Grats on the genocide of the caldarirace. Hml damage was crap before now it will be pathetic. Can we get our heavy missile skills sp back and respecialize it hams? Hml was a long train with support skills. I now have to crosstrain into another races ships. Caldari have always sucked at pvp this will make it even tougher to have a caldari pilot in a fleet unless they are ecming. Are. Gonna nerf that too while you are at it? Are u gonna nerf other races long range weapons like aetillery so they only do like 275 damage as well...... Didnt think so. Way to go ccp ...... Tears yeah tears will flow on behalf of all caldari pilots as they have to crosstrain or stick to ecm or possibly pve. Pvp will no longer be viable as if drakes were op lolz. A drake on the battlefield is no more than a distraction unless you have blobs of them.think my drake has around 377 dpsmwhile my maelstrom fitedmwith artys have around 1100 or something, at even a greater range, so lets nerf hmls so they have shorter range one damage type bonus so everyone with a brain knows what hardener to throw on, and make it less than 300 damage.....huh?



Skill UP, a drake can pull 486 DPS no implants/frigs, 340 with the "standard" 2BCS fit....and that 2 BCS fit can reach 110km.


....and again, you have to use a BATTLESHIP to find an unfavorable comparison. That doesn't tell you anything?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#4725 - 2012-10-16 14:08:39 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Starr FFox wrote:
Grats on the genocide of the caldarirace. Hml damage was crap before now it will be pathetic. Can we get our heavy missile skills sp back and respecialize it hams? Hml was a long train with support skills. I now have to crosstrain into another races ships. Caldari have always sucked at pvp this will make it even tougher to have a caldari pilot in a fleet unless they are ecming. Are. Gonna nerf that too while you are at it? Are u gonna nerf other races long range weapons like aetillery so they only do like 275 damage as well...... Didnt think so. Way to go ccp ...... Tears yeah tears will flow on behalf of all caldari pilots as they have to crosstrain or stick to ecm or possibly pve. Pvp will no longer be viable as if drakes were op lolz. A drake on the battlefield is no more than a distraction unless you have blobs of them.think my drake has around 377 dpsmwhile my maelstrom fitedmwith artys have around 1100 or something, at even a greater range, so lets nerf hmls so they have shorter range one damage type bonus so everyone with a brain knows what hardener to throw on, and make it less than 300 damage.....huh?



Skill UP, a drake can pull 486 DPS no implants/frigs, 340 with the "standard" 2BCS fit....and that 2 BCS fit can reach 110km.


....and again, you have to use a BATTLESHIP to find an unfavorable comparison. That doesn't tell you anything?




i believe he is referring to the upcoming changes to dmg and range on HML's but his numbers on the arties are well wide off the mark they will do about 500dps at best as tornado's do atm but have poor tracking as battleship weapons do.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4726 - 2012-10-16 14:13:15 UTC
Harvey James wrote:




i believe he is referring to the upcoming changes to dmg and range on HML's but his numbers on the arties are well wide off the mark they will do about 500dps at best as tornado's do atm but have poor tracking as battleship weapons do.



HML Drake will still pull 396DPS after the nerf, which is pretty ******* respectable for a medium LR weapon.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#4727 - 2012-10-16 14:16:06 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Major Killz wrote:


I'm against the changes to the Hurricane, but its not so big of a deal that it would warrant long conversations with TERRIBUBBLE players.


Also, like always. Many are behind the META of combat. The Hurricane is being phased out because of tier 3's.


Well based on your asb hawks performance against my enyo a few days ago i have come to the conclusion that you are actually the "terribubble" player.

As for cane being replaced by tiers 3s... Maybe this argument is somewhat valid when comparing the arty cane to tier 3 however when fitting the the ship in a more conventional role it's still by far the mot versatile of the bcs. You've got reasonable ehp values (60k+) when armor fit on top of 2x webs, and nuets. The armor cane really does not have much competition in the current bc lineup as it' the runaway obvious choice. It's been unquestionably overpowered for years now and i expect further nerfs to the ship or significant buffs to comparable bcs before next summer's xpack.



http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14863453 yes you are indeed pre and I am terrible. Congratulations! I wish you the best of luck in your delusional world of PRO and grats on winning... You should read those comments.


Oh I did however your blatant attempt at underplaying your obvious miss click mistake was rather underwhelming. Saying things like "I went back to writing" to try and underplay it further is convincing no one. I will look forward to thrashing you again in the near future. Do try and not make noob mistakes next time, it makes the kills worth so much less for me.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#4728 - 2012-10-16 14:17:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Onictus wrote:
Harvey James wrote:




i believe he is referring to the upcoming changes to dmg and range on HML's but his numbers on the arties are well wide off the mark they will do about 500dps at best as tornado's do atm but have poor tracking as battleship weapons do.



HML Drake will still pull 396DPS after the nerf, which is pretty ******* respectable for a medium LR weapon.


Reallly? im guessing your talking rage but there range and tracking will be much weaker so would probably need some TE's/TC's to improve its actual dps
Also are you including drones in that?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
TheLast Poofighter
Squirrel Horde
#4729 - 2012-10-16 14:17:52 UTC  |  Edited by: TheLast Poofighter
I am not sure I understand the reasoning behind making the missile platform behave like a turret platform. My understanding is that there are two separate skill trees as they are intended to behave and perform differently - I think most of the changes proposed would be widely accepted if the secondary skills of missiles were reimbursed and merge gunnery and missile skill trees to a "turrets" skill tree. As it would stand now this just seems like a huge hit to newer players who may have not cross trained for both disciplines (guns and missiles that is) and to one specific race that really isn't geared for pvp anyway.

Also I don't understand the reasoning of "defender missiles take up too much cpu so to fix a problem we are going to make everything behave the same." While I know that isn't a direct quote, it was kinda how it came across. Is it that difficult to fix a great idea that works very well for npc battle ships in level 4 missions? It seems like there really could be all kinds of creative solutions and the route taken was rather bland and boring. Defender pulses, defender arrays, robo-nano-dragons, cloaked defender missiles - really, you have a whole universe of creative options here. I have always appreciated the complex Paper, Rock, Scissors nature of Eve but this change just kinda seems like we all get a rock. My rant is finished I am going to watch a Charlie Brown Halloween and wait for the extended DT to finish.

PS - My daughter who has Down Syndrome is an avid player of Eve. I thought it would be a good idea for her to take up mining to prepare her for potential disappointments - however, she took more to POS management. She like to set up complex designs and shapes for hours on end. Her POS is large Amarr tower which she likes to call "the Broken Potato Peeler." Would it be possible for the anchoring/un-anchoring and onlining/offlining times to get buffed?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4730 - 2012-10-16 14:18:44 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Harvey James wrote:




i believe he is referring to the upcoming changes to dmg and range on HML's but his numbers on the arties are well wide off the mark they will do about 500dps at best as tornado's do atm but have poor tracking as battleship weapons do.



HML Drake will still pull 396DPS after the nerf, which is pretty ******* respectable for a medium LR weapon.


Reallly? im guessing your talking rage but there range and tracking will be much weaker so would probably need some TE's/TC's to improve its actual dps


No x3 BCS
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4731 - 2012-10-16 14:25:14 UTC
TheLast Poofighter wrote:
I am not sure I understand the reasoning behind making the missile platform behave like a turret platform. My understanding is that there are two separate skill trees as they are intended to behave and perform differently - I think most of the changes proposed would be widely accepted if the secondary skills of missiles were reimbursed and merge gunnery and missile skill trees to a "turrets" skill tree. As it would stand now this just seems like a huge hit to newer players who may have not cross trained for both disciplines (guns and missiles that is) and to one specific race that really isn't geared for pvp anyway.


Why? Missiles are applicable to all four races, as are the turret support skills. New players that AREN'T Caldari have to deal with this anyway. I'm an Angle pilot given the choice, I much prefer gallente and matar. However, I can also fly all four races BS and down with T2 weapons. The newer "caldari" players get to share the experince of newer Amarr, Gallente and Matari players and crosstrain.

TheLast Poofighter wrote:

Also I don't understand the reasoning of "defender missiles take up too much cpu so to fix a problem we are going to make everything behave the same." While I know that isn't a direct quote, it was kinda how it came across. Is it that difficult to fix a great idea that works very well for npc battle ships in level 4? It seems like there really could be all kinds of creative solutions and the route taken was rather bland and boring. Defender pulses, defender arrays, robo-nano-dragons, cloaked defender missiles - really, you have a whole universe of creative options here. I have always appreciated the complex Paper, Rock, Scissors nature of Eve but this change just kinda seems like we all get a rock. My rant is finished I am going to watch a Charlie Brown Halloween and wait for the extended DT to finish.


Their issue with defenders is hardware resources. For the rest of us smartbombs do fine.

TheLast Poofighter wrote:

PS - My daughter who has Down Syndrome is an avid player of Eve. I thought it would be a good idea for her to take up mining to prepare her for potential disappointments - however, she took more to POS management. She like to set up complex designs and shapes for hours on end. Her POS is large Amarr tower which she like to call "the Broken Potato Peeler." Would it be possible for the anchoring/un-anchoring and onlining/offlining times to get buffed?


You have no idea how most of us wish that lol
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#4732 - 2012-10-16 14:26:49 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Harvey James wrote:




i believe he is referring to the upcoming changes to dmg and range on HML's but his numbers on the arties are well wide off the mark they will do about 500dps at best as tornado's do atm but have poor tracking as battleship weapons do.



HML Drake will still pull 396DPS after the nerf, which is pretty ******* respectable for a medium LR weapon.


Reallly? im guessing your talking rage but there range and tracking will be much weaker so would probably need some TE's/TC's to improve its actual dps


No x3 BCS


you misunderstand im talking the difference between paper dps and actual dps application i.e. tracking. but from reading earlier in this topic people were mentioning 300 dps would be more accurate not including drone dps that and people will most likely use faction ammo for the extra range and tracking bonus over T2 rage ammo

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4733 - 2012-10-16 14:28:54 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Harvey James wrote:




i believe he is referring to the upcoming changes to dmg and range on HML's but his numbers on the arties are well wide off the mark they will do about 500dps at best as tornado's do atm but have poor tracking as battleship weapons do.



HML Drake will still pull 396DPS after the nerf, which is pretty ******* respectable for a medium LR weapon.


Reallly? im guessing your talking rage but there range and tracking will be much weaker so would probably need some TE's/TC's to improve its actual dps


No x3 BCS


you misunderstand im talking the difference between paper dps and actual dps application i.e. tracking. but from reading earlier in this topic people were mentioning 300 dps would be more accurate not including drone dps that and people will most likely use faction ammo for the extra range and tracking bonus over T2 rage ammo



You lose 9 DPS to a max skilled hurricane with a MWD.

What do I not understand again?
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#4734 - 2012-10-16 14:32:35 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Major Killz wrote:


I'm against the changes to the Hurricane, but its not so big of a deal that it would warrant long conversations with TERRIBUBBLE players.


Also, like always. Many are behind the META of combat. The Hurricane is being phased out because of tier 3's.


Well based on your asb hawks performance against my enyo a few days ago i have come to the conclusion that you are actually the "terribubble" player.

As for cane being replaced by tiers 3s... Maybe this argument is somewhat valid when comparing the arty cane to tier 3 however when fitting the the ship in a more conventional role it's still by far the mot versatile of the bcs. You've got reasonable ehp values (60k+) when armor fit on top of 2x webs, and nuets. The armor cane really does not have much competition in the current bc lineup as it' the runaway obvious choice. It's been unquestionably overpowered for years now and i expect further nerfs to the ship or significant buffs to comparable bcs before next summer's xpack.



http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14863453 yes you are indeed pre and I am terrible. Congratulations! I wish you the best of luck in your delusional world of PRO and grats on winning... You should read those comments.


Oh I did however your blatant attempt at underplaying your obvious miss click mistake was rather underwhelming. Saying things like "I went back to writing" to try and underplay it further is convincing no one. I will look forward to thrashing you again in the near future. Do try and not make noob mistakes next time, it makes the kills worth so much less for me.



Sounds good clown. I l00k forward to sch00ling your whole corporation. You can find me out roaming and PVPing anytime. I hope to see you undocked when we're the same system and not cowering in station. Also, I tend not to local chatter so I do ignore any atempts to conversate or talk smack.

Also, we both know you were trying to leave that engagement once you noticed I was kiting you 2 death. Unfortunatly I knew even if I was to stay @ my desired range. I wouldn't b able to end it with my ASB reloading (60 seconds). Infact when I was ask by a corp m8 "are going to esplode" because 7 people in more corporation were next door and on coms. I said 'no'. I'm going to warp out, he won or would win and there's nothing I can do about.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4735 - 2012-10-16 14:36:21 UTC
/popcorn
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#4736 - 2012-10-16 15:00:17 UTC
This change will effect an old dynamic that was becoming ubiquitous. The move from battleships to lower ship classes or reliance upon them. There was a helpful cost and skill training time benifit with battlecruisers.

Now! Battleships will become the major go to ships again. The range reduction on the Drake alone made that the case. The cost of defending and fielding ships will rise and the benifit of SOV is decreasing.

Being in 0.0 will become more skill intensive if alliance will be reliant on battleships again.

The 2 weapon systems that will stand out from these changes will be Pulse Lasers and Artillery. The Drake will still be strong but will be food even for a fleet of blaster-Rokhs or autocannon-Maelstroms much less Abaddon and Armageddons. Tier 3's will almost completey overshadow the other lower teir battlecruisers; the Drakes range was the only thing holding back the aforementioned from becoming reality.


For coalition style battles you'll see more ships that have high resistence and large EHP; Rokhs, Abaddon, Armageddons, Tengu, rail-Proteus, art-Loki and Zealots. The long range ships of choice will be Naga, Oracle, Talos, and Tornados.

Drakes may or may not be removed from use in important engagement. As it stands now. The hml-Drake is close inline with a Art-Hurricane than it was before. The only difference being ehp and resistence.

BOOST for battleships and those with a large amount of skill points and a NERF to new and smaller entities who cannot afford to field battleships or dont have high skill point pilots.

Although! Tier 3's are not to hard to get into.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4737 - 2012-10-16 15:20:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:


Oh I did however your blatant attempt at underplaying your obvious miss click mistake was rather underwhelming. Saying things like "I went back to writing" to try and underplay it further is convincing no one. I will look forward to thrashing you again in the near future. Do try and not make noob mistakes next time, it makes the kills worth so much less for me.


The one time nyan cat pirates win a fight they clearly need to go on about it for multiple posts on a completely unrelated forum topic...

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Lili Lu
#4738 - 2012-10-16 15:21:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Major Killz wrote:
decent assessment

Although I don't agree with all that is stated, it is a decent assessment of the effect of these changes at this time. Missiles at each level of ship class have always either been a hit or miss P proposition by virtue of the relative lack of ships that can use them. For instance Noemi complains about Drake and Tengu being the only good HML boats. Well actually they are only 2 out of 4 total HML boats. The Nighthawk and Cerb are not necessarily bad ships it's just that they are overshadowed in cost and effectiveness by the Drake and Tengu.

However, the rebalancing process has commenced. We can already see a shift with Minmatar receiving missile boats. That process will likely continue on up into BC and BS. So a missile centric Cyclone is a possibility. Whether we will end up with a Cruise/torp shield Tempest or Phoon to go with shield tanked cruise/torp Ravens, or armor tanked Cruise/torp Ravens to go with armor cruise/torp Phoons as future possible fleet comps reamiains to be seen. Lots of possibilities in future that will expand the number of "missile" boats at every level.

There will be some months or a year or more of odd imbalances between tech I and tech II relative value as the process progresses. But definitely having a game where one race has an easy to skill fleet ship and all the others don't is ending. Likewise a game where people can just train one weapon system (HMs) and one race/size of ship (Caldari/medium ships) and run just about any pve content and use those same skills for any level of pvp is ending.

This will be good for the game when it's all done.
Durkuh Durka
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#4739 - 2012-10-16 15:26:58 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone, I got back from GDC yesterday and have now caught up on the posts I missed here.

We don't have any new changes to the proposal to report at this time, but we're working on getting a testing window in place so we can get some changes out to you guys for hands on testing.

We very well may change the proposal further but odds are the next changes will happen after we get some test server feedback so people can try things out.


Thankfully, I can fly a Harbinger as well as a Hurricane, so I shoudn't be horribly affected when you make plated arty canes a thing of the past (thanks to the need for three ACRs and an RCUII).

OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#4740 - 2012-10-16 15:28:30 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Opertone wrote:

I am afraid that messing with my torpedoes will make my Golem very sad. Now buff my damage output on torpedoes and I can forget about your horrible missile debuf idea.


This proposed change is a very significant buff to torpedoes.



Even with these changes there is still no reason to fly a Caldari Torpedo BS. And Cruise Missiles remain a joke.