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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4681 - 2012-10-15 19:23:40 UTC
Enya Enaka wrote:
Durkuh Durka wrote:
So CCP Fozzie, were you just trying to troll the drake/cane fanbops into frothing anger or do you plan on returning to respond to the issues being mentioned?


Here is CCP Fozzie getting the Tengu 'Fanbops' frothing (all in good fun) at the Thursday Austin Meet where he nerf bats a 100MN Tengu. Big smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD-3qTVo8c8


Just the 100mn lol ironic
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4682 - 2012-10-15 19:26:23 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Congrats : comparing HML Drake to Pulse Zealot ! I don't think HAM are so bad, and I don't think HAM Drake is bad either. As I said, there is no HAM drake because HML are so much more versatile for too much proportion of the power of HAM. You can do a lot of things with HAM, but you can do a lot more with HML, so why fitting HML ? This is because HML are OP : HML are not a short-medium range weapon system, but a long range one. They should be balance around long range medium size weapons.

And please, stop using stats of ONE day of EVE !!! It is an insult to intelligence. Use relevant data, and if you don't know what is a relevant dataset, don't use statistics.


simply OMG. From the very first to the very last word you seem to not understand anything of what was posted here.

Best part is .. its not the stats of ONE day of Eve. Seriously, you dont only score one against your own team, you seem to be in hat trick mode. If YOU dont understand how those stats are made, then maybe better dont post. Thanks.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4683 - 2012-10-15 19:38:02 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


Btw, there's 4 pure missile ships on that list. Huginn is split 3/3.

And yes, HAMs work with Caldari ships like Drake and Tengu. Tengu's offensive missile subsystem is actually a bit better than Legion's Assault Optimization subsystem.


And 2 of those 4 are bombers (=Frigsize) which are pretty equal over all races.

Btw, where is your combat alt?
xUnlimitedx
Doomheim
#4684 - 2012-10-15 19:51:20 UTC
JESUS.... ccp u make me very angry. REMOVE T2 AMMO MALUS GOOOO.
Ellente Fervens
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4685 - 2012-10-15 21:55:19 UTC
ok Fozzie here is some feedback in your preferred format.

I don't agree with the nerf on fury range, it renders them pointless as javelins will out damage them on anything below BS and they have a gnats peni of difference in range. An additional reason for my dislike of this change is that it effectively gives the choice of high tracking short range T2 ammo and higher damage much worse tracking short range T2 ammo. You may as well fit faction launchers as the utility of these weapon systems are going to be so limited.

I think it is well and good to out damage furies with javelin I think it is fine to out track (better exp vel and rad) but surely the long range weapon should have some advantage in T2 ammo? I'd suggest range. (I.E make it 75%-80% of normal not 50%)
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#4686 - 2012-10-15 22:19:01 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:

Best part is .. its not the stats of ONE day of Eve. Seriously, you dont only score one against your own team, you seem to be in hat trick mode. If YOU dont understand how those stats are made, then maybe better dont post. Thanks.

Then, explain your stats. I don't want to know battleclinic or whatever site you pic these stats on, it's your job to explain why they are relevant if you want to use them to support your argumentation.

BTW, even one month would not be a relevant time frame. Six would start to say something, maybe. But as someone said, those stats are more a picture of nullsec politic than anything else. CCP on its part have relevant stats, and they think HML are OP. Guess who might be closer from the truth ?

Anyway, as I already said, any statistic won't change the fact that HML are OP by themselves compared to comparable turrets. This can explain part of the drake overabundance, and part of the tengu OPness.

As CCP Fozzy said, to rebalance correctly the ships, they need to work on a sane weapon system. So they need to rebalance HML.

With these changes, the Drake will still be good, it only won't be so OP anymore. Start using a short range weapon system to do a lot of damage : HAM. They are definitly buffed in the changes. Just look at them.

And finally T2 ammo : T2 ammo usually are situational. These new T2 ammo will be situational, and they will be very good in those situations. Why shouldn't they be that way ? Why do you want to rebalance HML only to through away this balancing by providing OP T2 ammo ?

@Noemi : you are only moving from one point to another, completely ignoring anything you don't want to hear. It is boring.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4687 - 2012-10-16 00:49:23 UTC
Bouh, its pointless to discuss with you. You blame me of moving on when you dont even seem to read or understand what has been posted here before.

So lets make this clear, I think you are not able to contribute here because:

First: You are pure Gallente with literally NO clue at all about how missiles work. You showed this again and again.

Second: You fail to read stuff which is important and which is not, you fail to understand stats which are posted ( accusing me about they were just "one day" stats was just the icing on the cake) and you continue to claim things which are simply not true.

The Drake is not OP, it never was, and most probably it never will be. Its good in some things, and not good in others. In long range combat its atm the best BC, in close range its by far not. How can you call this imbalance? Its not an I-win-button. Its like this in a Drake: You manage to stay out of close range and still keep your enemy in place? Grats, you have a good chance to win. You fail to do so by letting them come too close or get too far out? You either wont kill him or you wont kill him and lose. How can this be considered to be OP? You have also not the speed to dictate every thing and the decision about engaging or not may be much more committing than with Winmatar which often have the GTFO option.

If you fail to understand that then, sorry, this is not my problem. But its obviously pointless to discuss any missile balancing things with a guy who has no clue about missile PvP apart from being on the receiving end.



Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Then, explain your stats. I don't want to know battleclinic or whatever site you pic these stats on, it's your job to explain why they are relevant if you want to use them to support your argumentation.


It has been said before how they work. If you dont follow this thread then better dont post. Or get a different attitude, and people will explain. See, it was not ME who didnt understand how these stats worked, but you, still you commented my posting with this "insult to intelligence"-stuff and other things .. well done, go on :)

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

BTW, even one month would not be a relevant time frame..


Since those stats are over one month and not longer you will have to check again and again. Report back when you got your 6-month frame, starting with 1st of September 2012 if you please ....


Bouh Revetoile wrote:
CCP on its part have relevant stats, and they think HML are OP. Guess who might be closer from the truth ?.


Fozzie thinks they are OP, and he seems to be a bit ... strange in his views about missiles. Starting with those numbers in the OP, where he speaks about a damage buff for Furies when in fact their damage gets nerfed. Same as their softstats which get nerfed. He speaks about bringing them more in line, when in fact he refuses to do things to bring them more in line (giving t2 long ammo for example with less damage but fast speed/short flighttime). Either accept missiles are one thing and guns are another (with all their cons and pros) or make em equal.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Anyway, as I already said, any statistic won't change the fact that HML are OP by themselves compared to comparable turrets. This can explain part of the drake overabundance, and part of the tengu OPness..


You think this can explain the Drake masses, but you are wrong. First: IF HML would be OP, why are they just popular in 2 ships? Second: which ships should Caldari guys who are fond of missiles use else? There you go. Its never a weapon system alone. Its always a combination, and also a combination of reasons. Caldari missile users have no other working hulls than Tengu and Drake. And they have no other working systems in medium and large size (except torps for bombers, which all races do have ..). Simple as that. And since missiles are THE signature weapon for Caldari, some of us trained them. Funny eh?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4688 - 2012-10-16 03:25:35 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Fozzie thinks they are OP, and he seems to be a bit ... strange in his views about missiles. Starting with those numbers in the OP, where he speaks about a damage buff for Furies when in fact their damage gets nerfed. Same as their softstats which get nerfed.

Increasing (buffing) the damage bonus for Fury's over T1's while decreasing the T1 damage is not the same as saying they are getting a damage buff.
Noemi Nagano wrote:
He speaks about bringing them more in line, when in fact he refuses to do things to bring them more in line (giving t2 long ammo for example with less damage but fast speed/short flighttime). Either accept missiles are one thing and guns are another (with all their cons and pros) or make em equal.

The concept of T2 LR ammo doesn't translate to missiles since missiles have no variable range T1 ammo. T2 LR ammo gives long range reach with midrange DPS while giving an application penalty (tracking). Compare to precision which will give same as T1 DPS with better application but less range. So precision is effectively your T1 LR ammo equivalent, just instead of range you get damage application and instead of tracking penalties you get a range reduction from T1.
Noemi Nagano wrote:
You think this can explain the Drake masses, but you are wrong. First: IF HML would be OP, why are they just popular in 2 ships?

Those ships outclass all the other HML platforms. HML base range is typically more than enough for the task so there is little reason to drop the tank a drake could sport for the range of a cerb/caracal, and the nighthawk is so close in performance that there is no real reason to incur the extra cost for the most part. The tengu just gives all the drake has and more in addition to being able to have the extra reach the caracal and cerb have.
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Second: which ships should Caldari guys who are fond of missiles use else?

Depends on how well they do at giving HML ships unique roles. If well, whichever suits the need you have.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4689 - 2012-10-16 04:21:34 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
The Drake is not OP, it never was, and most probably it never will be. Its good in some things, and not good in others. In long range combat its atm the best BC, in close range its by far not. How can you call this imbalance? Its not an I-win-button. Its like this in a Drake: You manage to stay out of close range and still keep your enemy in place? Grats, you have a good chance to win. You fail to do so by letting them come too close or get too far out? You either wont kill him or you wont kill him and lose. How can this be considered to be OP? You have also not the speed to dictate every thing and the decision about engaging or not may be much more committing than with Winmatar which often have the GTFO option.


Could you show how AC Hurricane could possibly win against HML Drake.

Do you know the fact that Cane does 600+ only at 3,9 km? Yeah, that's how long optimal Cane has with LONG RANGE ammo and two TEs. For comparison: Brutix has 4,39 km optimal with SHORT RANGE ammo and two TEs and Harbinger 9,75 km with SHORT RANGE ammo and two TEs.
Dato Koppla
Neuronix
#4690 - 2012-10-16 06:20:55 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
The Drake is not OP, it never was, and most probably it never will be. Its good in some things, and not good in others. In long range combat its atm the best BC, in close range its by far not. How can you call this imbalance? Its not an I-win-button. Its like this in a Drake: You manage to stay out of close range and still keep your enemy in place? Grats, you have a good chance to win. You fail to do so by letting them come too close or get too far out? You either wont kill him or you wont kill him and lose. How can this be considered to be OP? You have also not the speed to dictate every thing and the decision about engaging or not may be much more committing than with Winmatar which often have the GTFO option.


Could you show how AC Hurricane could possibly win against HML Drake.

Do you know the fact that Cane does 600+ only at 3,9 km? Yeah, that's how long optimal Cane has with LONG RANGE ammo and two TEs. For comparison: Brutix has 4,39 km optimal with SHORT RANGE ammo and two TEs and Harbinger 9,75 km with SHORT RANGE ammo and two TEs.


Falloff, heard of it? The ability to choose between brawling and kiting on the same fit is one of the reason that makes the Cane (and in general Winmatar ships) powerful because as the speed race with alot of utility, more often than not they can pick their targets and engagement range and disengage when it's not going for them.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4691 - 2012-10-16 06:52:04 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
The Drake is not OP, it never was, and most probably it never will be. Its good in some things, and not good in others. In long range combat its atm the best BC, in close range its by far not. How can you call this imbalance? Its not an I-win-button. Its like this in a Drake: You manage to stay out of close range and still keep your enemy in place? Grats, you have a good chance to win. You fail to do so by letting them come too close or get too far out? You either wont kill him or you wont kill him and lose. How can this be considered to be OP? You have also not the speed to dictate every thing and the decision about engaging or not may be much more committing than with Winmatar which often have the GTFO option.


Could you show how AC Hurricane could possibly win against HML Drake.

Do you know the fact that Cane does 600+ only at 3,9 km? Yeah, that's how long optimal Cane has with LONG RANGE ammo and two TEs. For comparison: Brutix has 4,39 km optimal with SHORT RANGE ammo and two TEs and Harbinger 9,75 km with SHORT RANGE ammo and two TEs.


Falloff, heard of it? The ability to choose between brawling and kiting on the same fit is one of the reason that makes the Cane (and in general Winmatar ships) powerful because as the speed race with alot of utility, more often than not they can pick their targets and engagement range and disengage when it's not going for them.


Yeah exaclty that falloff means your 600 DPS cane is doing 225ish DPS with a 64% hit chance. at 20km ...and shooting drake's strongest resists with barrage.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4692 - 2012-10-16 07:03:39 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
The Drake is not OP, it never was, and most probably it never will be. Its good in some things, and not good in others. In long range combat its atm the best BC, in close range its by far not. How can you call this imbalance? Its not an I-win-button. Its like this in a Drake: You manage to stay out of close range and still keep your enemy in place? Grats, you have a good chance to win. You fail to do so by letting them come too close or get too far out? You either wont kill him or you wont kill him and lose. How can this be considered to be OP? You have also not the speed to dictate every thing and the decision about engaging or not may be much more committing than with Winmatar which often have the GTFO option.


Could you show how AC Hurricane could possibly win against HML Drake.

Do you know the fact that Cane does 600+ only at 3,9 km? Yeah, that's how long optimal Cane has with LONG RANGE ammo and two TEs. For comparison: Brutix has 4,39 km optimal with SHORT RANGE ammo and two TEs and Harbinger 9,75 km with SHORT RANGE ammo and two TEs.


You, sir, failed to show your combat alt. I will therefor ignore your remarks until you show one. Btw, if I wouldnt, I could take them as proof you have no clue: not a single Eve player will claim the AC Cane to be inferior in PvP to a HML Drake. Seriously. Neither in 1on1 nor in small roams. The Drake can shine in bigger numbers, but in small scale AC Canes will either be able to run or kill the Drake. No way the HML Drake can win that with half decent pilots in the Cane. And thats no problem at all, since one is short range, the other long ... so long range should need to stay away.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4693 - 2012-10-16 07:15:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Increasing (buffing) the damage bonus for Fury's over T1's while decreasing the T1 damage is not the same as saying they are getting a damage buff.


Ok, I can agree on that. Still its a bit fishy how he wrote it, just because he didnt make it clear Fury will have LESS DPS than they have now for the casual reader. There are really many people in game atm who believe after the patch HML Fury will doe MORE DPS than now, which is just wrong in so many ways ... and Fozzie wrote it in a way people can take it wrong, and I do think he did it purposely.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:

The concept of T2 LR ammo doesn't translate to missiles since missiles have no variable range T1 ammo. T2 LR ammo gives long range reach with midrange DPS while giving an application penalty (tracking). Compare to precision which will give same as T1 DPS with better application but less range. So precision is effectively your T1 LR ammo equivalent, just instead of range you get damage application and instead of tracking penalties you get a range reduction from T1.


Oh, I think if you want to bring them in line, you should try to solve that. There is no reason to cut the range-ability of the long range system (!) so hard it will not be possible to snipe with it anymore at all. I can agree on sniping with lower DPS, that makes sense (just because turrets do really have low DPS on max ranges), but not with 0 DPS. So if you want missiles to be competitive long range you have to give an option there for long range, fast flight (so your damage will not come too late) and low DPS. About the tracking/application we can see how to balance it. Generally speaking, turrets have no big issues with hitting on long ranges due to normally low transversal, although falloff comes in effect too and makes it harder. Missiles otoh have big issues with hitting on the edge of their range (movement of target) and generally have issues with fast targets, regardless which direction its flying. Missiles do have far less issues with closer range stuff (from max range -10% and down, but the thing which gives them a headache is still signature/speed of target, which is a big problem for HAMs and Torps esp., but also Cruises and Fury HML).

Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Depends on how well they do at giving HML ships unique roles. If well, whichever suits the need you have.


If they buff the Nighthawk in a way it will be usable with success in PvP (unlike now, because right now its in fact not better than the Drake but often worse, 5 meds vs 6 meds in Drake and POOR PG ..), also regarding the price- and skillreq-tag and do the same with all those t1 and t2 Cruisers, then maybe. Atm the Caracal is not top with HML, and with worse HML it will obviously not be better. And as long as the Raven sucks so hard (and its weapons do too) there is really no option other than the Drake. OT Smithers said it well - time to end this Caldari-nerfing once and for all, the time to make those broken hulls work is NOW. Not sometime in the future, after this nerf and that nerf ...
PAPULA
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#4694 - 2012-10-16 08:25:03 UTC  |  Edited by: PAPULA
Enya Enaka wrote:
Durkuh Durka wrote:
So CCP Fozzie, were you just trying to troll the drake/cane fanbops into frothing anger or do you plan on returning to respond to the issues being mentioned?


Here is CCP Fozzie getting the Tengu 'Fanbops' frothing (all in good fun) at the Thursday Austin Meet where he nerf bats a 100MN Tengu. Big smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD-3qTVo8c8

Proof that he's PL.
Search for raivi in game, also look at youtube comments.

Now you know why ccp is nerfing heavy missiles it's not because they need change but because of PL.

Zyella Stormborn wrote:
You forgot about the other part:
penalties to explosion radius (+72%)

This is not a buff but damage reduction so it's a nerf.
+72% to explosion radius will make even less dps.
If you want buff for missiles or make them better you need -72% to explosion radius.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4695 - 2012-10-16 08:59:16 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
The Drake is not OP, it never was, and most probably it never will be. Its good in some things, and not good in others. In long range combat its atm the best BC, in close range its by far not. How can you call this imbalance? Its not an I-win-button. Its like this in a Drake: You manage to stay out of close range and still keep your enemy in place? Grats, you have a good chance to win. You fail to do so by letting them come too close or get too far out? You either wont kill him or you wont kill him and lose. How can this be considered to be OP? You have also not the speed to dictate every thing and the decision about engaging or not may be much more committing than with Winmatar which often have the GTFO option.


Could you show how AC Hurricane could possibly win against HML Drake.

Do you know the fact that Cane does 600+ only at 3,9 km? Yeah, that's how long optimal Cane has with LONG RANGE ammo and two TEs. For comparison: Brutix has 4,39 km optimal with SHORT RANGE ammo and two TEs and Harbinger 9,75 km with SHORT RANGE ammo and two TEs.


You, sir, failed to show your combat alt. I will therefor ignore your remarks until you show one. Btw, if I wouldnt, I could take them as proof you have no clue: not a single Eve player will claim the AC Cane to be inferior in PvP to a HML Drake. Seriously. Neither in 1on1 nor in small roams. The Drake can shine in bigger numbers, but in small scale AC Canes will either be able to run or kill the Drake. No way the HML Drake can win that with half decent pilots in the Cane. And thats no problem at all, since one is short range, the other long ... so long range should need to stay away.



You've never actually done this have you?
Signal11th
#4696 - 2012-10-16 09:01:42 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
The Drake is not OP, it never was, and most probably it never will be. Its good in some things, and not good in others. In long range combat its atm the best BC, in close range its by far not. How can you call this imbalance? Its not an I-win-button. Its like this in a Drake: You manage to stay out of close range and still keep your enemy in place? Grats, you have a good chance to win. You fail to do so by letting them come too close or get too far out? You either wont kill him or you wont kill him and lose. How can this be considered to be OP? You have also not the speed to dictate every thing and the decision about engaging or not may be much more committing than with Winmatar which often have the GTFO option.


Could you show how AC Hurricane could possibly win against HML Drake.

Do you know the fact that Cane does 600+ only at 3,9 km? Yeah, that's how long optimal Cane has with LONG RANGE ammo and two TEs. For comparison: Brutix has 4,39 km optimal with SHORT RANGE ammo and two TEs and Harbinger 9,75 km with SHORT RANGE ammo and two TEs.


You, sir, failed to show your combat alt. I will therefor ignore your remarks until you show one. Btw, if I wouldnt, I could take them as proof you have no clue: not a single Eve player will claim the AC Cane to be inferior in PvP to a HML Drake. Seriously. Neither in 1on1 nor in small roams. The Drake can shine in bigger numbers, but in small scale AC Canes will either be able to run or kill the Drake. No way the HML Drake can win that with half decent pilots in the Cane. And thats no problem at all, since one is short range, the other long ... so long range should need to stay away.



You've never actually done this have you?



Although I see your point personally I would choose a cane over a drake anyday in small gang pvp. The drake is just a "tank" like you get in other games, boring to fly and only really shines when you have a few and a logi handy.

God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!" I came fifth and won a toaster!
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4697 - 2012-10-16 09:47:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Signal11th wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
The Drake is not OP, it never was, and most probably it never will be. Its good in some things, and not good in others. In long range combat its atm the best BC, in close range its by far not. How can you call this imbalance? Its not an I-win-button. Its like this in a Drake: You manage to stay out of close range and still keep your enemy in place? Grats, you have a good chance to win. You fail to do so by letting them come too close or get too far out? You either wont kill him or you wont kill him and lose. How can this be considered to be OP? You have also not the speed to dictate every thing and the decision about engaging or not may be much more committing than with Winmatar which often have the GTFO option.


Could you show how AC Hurricane could possibly win against HML Drake.

Do you know the fact that Cane does 600+ only at 3,9 km? Yeah, that's how long optimal Cane has with LONG RANGE ammo and two TEs. For comparison: Brutix has 4,39 km optimal with SHORT RANGE ammo and two TEs and Harbinger 9,75 km with SHORT RANGE ammo and two TEs.


You, sir, failed to show your combat alt. I will therefor ignore your remarks until you show one. Btw, if I wouldnt, I could take them as proof you have no clue: not a single Eve player will claim the AC Cane to be inferior in PvP to a HML Drake. Seriously. Neither in 1on1 nor in small roams. The Drake can shine in bigger numbers, but in small scale AC Canes will either be able to run or kill the Drake. No way the HML Drake can win that with half decent pilots in the Cane. And thats no problem at all, since one is short range, the other long ... so long range should need to stay away.



You've never actually done this have you?



Although I see your point personally I would choose a cane over a drake anyday in small gang pvp. The drake is just a "tank" like you get in other games, boring to fly and only really shines when you have a few and a logi handy.



As would I, the idea that a cane is a hard counter to a drake is just flat false though. There is no basis to make that statement.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#4698 - 2012-10-16 10:19:33 UTC
Now Noemi, as you are constantly saying I don't a **** about missiles because I fly gallente, I'd like to see some pvp stats of you. Because anything I saw on this thread was a highsec gank Drake...

On the other hand, all you say seem to be aimed at pve : saying there is only BC and BS in the game is stupid. Missiles frigates work fine, and are even deadly. You always completely ignored this fact. You also are implying caldari don't have half of their ships with hybrid guns. Fact is that caldari also use hybrids, and their hybrid BC/BS work very fine. Their hybrid frigates work fine too, but I wonder if you ever flown in a frigate after your first week.... They also have an OP EWAR, which make 3 cruisers and one BS of them OP. That is starting to be a bunch of caldari ships, but you will ignore this I guess, and quibble on something else.

You keep talking about the caracal, cerberus and nighthawk to support your assertion of "HML are not OP". Though these ships are known to have balance problem. Have you looked at the new caracal ? It will be deadly. The others will follow. All races have their not so flown ships, and this is the reason of all these rebalances.

Now, have you seen the HAM buff ? Start trying to fight with a HAM drake if you want to fight a AC cane. The fact that you are comparing the HML drake and the AC hurricane in a pvp situation is THE proof the HML OPness. Hurricane is being nerfed BTW... But you should ignore this, or cry against it, otherwise that would support the HML nerf.

What is left then ? Usually, you start by saying I don't know a **** about missiles, then that the drake is not OP because it's the only caldari ship, and then that the hurricane is better. Oh, I forgot the part of missiles are definitly OP because of medium long range turrets. Yeah, a long range weapon system have to be compared to other long range weapon systems. Sad, but that's it. Start to rage for a HAM buff, and you will be heared, but fighting the HML nerf only to let the drake being competitive against the hurricane is stupid.

And finaly statistic : there is a lot of bias you should avoid with statistics. One of them is a fashion effect. Can you prove that the Zealot being above the drake is not an effect of fashion or nullsec politic this month ? No, you cannnot, because you can't even gather multiple months statistics. BTW, fleet Zealot are pulse Zealot, so once again, a short range weapon system against a long range weapon system.

So I repeat it, I don't really care about the drake in itself, but the fact are HML are OP against what they should be compared to : medium long range turrets.

HML being able to hit fine at lower range when long range turret cannot is fine, it's by design, but allowing a drake to outdps all its peers even at any range, and even have more than TWICE their dps at long range is significative.

Making HML like turret is stupid BTW. We have too different weapon systems, they should work differently.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#4699 - 2012-10-16 10:22:50 UTC
Oh, and I forget this point : missile velocity have been buffed greatly. Not all that bad it seem ?
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4700 - 2012-10-16 10:37:24 UTC

Just one thing here Mr. missile/Drake hater, who cant read ...

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Now, have you seen the HAM buff ? Start trying to fight with a HAM drake if you want to fight a AC cane. The fact that you are comparing the HML drake and the AC hurricane in a pvp situation is THE proof the HML OPness. Hurricane is being nerfed BTW... But you should ignore this, or cry against it, otherwise that would support the HML nerf.


Once and for all. I am not comparing the HML Drake to an AC Cane. I say when one meets the other under certain conditions it can win, and under other it cant and will lose for sure. Same will apply to a comparison HAM Drake and Arty Cane btw, but unlike Arty Canes with have a certain value atm, HAM Drakes are not viable.

Same would apply to a Pulse II Harbinger btw, it will rip a HML Drake to pieces if it gets close enough. Or an AC Myrm or whatever. HAM Drake will lose most encounters to short range fitted enemies, HML Drake has a good chance of winning long range battles. Change one, and change the other. Make the Drake be on par with the others close range, and I am fine with the others being on par with the Drake long range. According to the planned changes this will not be happening though. The HAM Drake will remain a niche thing, and the HML Drake will be removed from PvP. Maybe its this Gallente thing, you dont want to be the only one who gets his backdoor abused?

Bouh Revetoile wrote:

HML being able to hit fine at lower range when long range turret cannot is fine, it's by design, but allowing a drake to outdps all its peers even at any range, and even have more than TWICE their dps at long range is significative.


No. It cant. It will NOT outdps all its peers on any range. Proof this stupid theory or GTFO. Proof has been brought for the contrary btw ... so better get some serious work done before you post again.