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Encourageing Players To Enjoy More Risk
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Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#81 - 2012-10-16 05:57:15 UTC
Incindir Mauser wrote:

Har har. I bow before your cleverness. I actually do live in W-space. It's so good it needs to happen Everywhere.

Empire needs more stick and less carrot.

So yet another person who doesn't live in highsec telling highseccers what's good for 'em.

Bit like all these 0.0 poasters waxing lyrically about what's good for highsec - even telling you they DO have alts in highsec - they just don't post on them.

Gaaa.......

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-10-16 06:33:45 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
i actually think that nullsec is pretty good income wise for the average player

highsec is way to good


Pretty much, but the effect is much the same - there's little incentive for the average player to ever leave the safety of highsec.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
S'Way
State War Academy
Caldari State
#83 - 2012-10-16 07:09:43 UTC
The problem with making meta 4 items 0.0 exclusive is that the items would then be region specific to the rat type - that runs a risk of someone ending up with a nice monopoly outcome. Removing meta 4 from high-sec, fair enough as it's that rare now it's not a big loss for most - but they shouldn't be removed from low-sec. After FW gets nerfed low-sec won't be as profitable (and anyone thinking 0.0 is more risky has never spent long around amamake etc).

The new dust tie-in might be a way for CCP to boost 0.0 income somehow (the 0.0 planets are already a nice passive income for the few who bother with the clicking). After seeing the topic about what team avatar is working on with EVA gameplay there's possibilities in that which could be used.
Then again if 0.0 space was uniformly balanced in quality and resources - what incentive is left for conflicts over resources, look at how blue lists have grown to huge sizes since systems could be upgraded, no need to go to war for better space when you can take the easy route and drop i-hubs.

Really adding more isk to the system runs a risk of inflation, it's more a need of rebalancing where the isk is generated that's needed - high-sec ores are now worth more than bistot / crokite etc. One place they could start is by looking into what basic rat items reprocess into, change it so you need to get zydrine / megacyte from low / 0.0 instead of from lvl 4 loot (make it reprocess into the same minerals as you get from mining high-sec belts).
Combine that with removing those huge spod roids from 0.0 grav belts so miners don't have to mine it out to get a respawn of decent ore would increase their income too.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#84 - 2012-10-16 07:14:59 UTC
I've been in many, many Null sec battles. While not everyone will 'enjoy' the pleasure of being primary first to fifth in every fight they go in to, it's the crux of Null combat. Alpha primary by 50+ guys. bew-bew-bew-bib-bip: Boom, back to outpost in a Pod. On average I spend less than 15 seconds on the battle field. In 100 null fleet battles, less than 5 minutes on the battle field. A Hundred skills I've never used because its bew-bew-bew-bib-bip: Boom, your dead, back to the cloner.

The simple truth is, EVE is more fun to imagine than it is to do.
Selinate
#85 - 2012-10-16 09:47:49 UTC
From this thread, I'm gathering that...

1) Eve is dying.

2) A BLOO BLOO BLOO PEOPLE PLAY THIS GAME DIFFERENTLY THAN I DO AND MAKE MORE ISK AT IT

3) I have indigestion.

Yes, this was relevant.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#86 - 2012-10-16 10:36:36 UTC
I would like to see some stats on people not going to 0.0 because of the risk/reward %.

Reasons not to go to 0.0 are many more than risk reward.


Alliances (unless you have lots o free time and or no lie aside of EVE) take to much time doing things you don't want to do.
CTA,s refueling. stupid Alliance politics, all fun if you have the time, not if you have 2 hours and you want some relaxed gaming.

The only way I enjoy 0.0 fleet battles is as a spectater, If I want to push a button when some FC says when I'll take a hearing test.
(All though I love the tactical way when playing EVE, in large fleet battles I'd rather have a joystick so I keep some induvuality)

as for the risk, that is actualy the only part that is intresting about 0.0 and low. It's what makes EVE unique. every MMO has PVE where you can earn money or items at a relatively low risk, some have even intresting PvP, but usualy based arround fast and guided scirmishes.

When flying low and 0.0 you'll need to be sharp because you'll never know when you're about to get hit.

So in my case and I know quite some like minded players, I've a jump clone on NPC 0.0 and one in highsec, depending on being tired or not I'll use one or the other.

No alliance bla, no time lost must do's just a few hours I can spend like I want to spent them.

want more people on 0.0 create more NPC 0.0 space, so induviduals and small coprs can move in.

What might help as well is to do something about some of the 24/7 Gatecamps, if you want people to enter 0.0 there 1st experiance should't be the trip to their new clone up on entering 0.0

Most of those solutions don't sound rather likely, but neither does pushing people in to a gamestyle they don't want to.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#87 - 2012-10-16 10:43:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Mike Whiite wrote:
What might help as well is to do something about some of the 24/7 Gatecamps


Nothing needs to be done about them. To stop those gatecamps would just be dumbing down the game and that will stir up a violent reaction in the community. There are shuttles, cloaks and jumpclones. All that is needed is for new players to learn to use them.

You can even fit a rookie ship with a cloak and a cap stable MWD for putting tacticals on gates with very limited skills.

Oh god.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#88 - 2012-10-16 10:48:37 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Nothing needs to be done about them. To stop those gatecamps would just be dumbing down the game and that will stir up a violent reaction in the community. There are shuttles, cloaks and jumpclones. All that is needed is for new players to learn to use them.


It's this idea that in order to get into 0.0, you need to join an alliance and fly to their space in your missioning Raven or something as opposed to simply selling your empire crap, setting your cloning station to their staging system and self-destructing your pod.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Opertone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-10-16 11:21:50 UTC
what can encourage people to take more RISKs??? Nothing, in fact eve is far too risky.

EVE is hard enough, nobody wants to grind another week to afford a new battleship.

The game can be relatively safe if you lock down your null sec area for you to mine and rat safely. It is relatively safe in high sec too. If you do not secure your space, risks are so high that you will be loosing more than you can make.

Eve is so unforgiving that 2vs1 one is the situation where 1 has to run real fast, or loose. If you show up on local, you are already found. Best you can do is cloak up and wait till your enemy is tired. You can not actually kick their ass, in fact, you bring a pvp gang and your enemy runs. Hit and Run is far too easy in EvE. Hit and Run is also very disturbing. You have no time to refit, can not catch up, and best part - your enemy cloaks or logs off and chase is over.

the problem is in the nature of traveling in EVE - instant relocation, 2-5 seconds before another instant relocation. It is like playing FIRST person shooter blind with invisible people, who also randomly hop into another dimension.

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#90 - 2012-10-16 11:35:58 UTC
Opertone wrote:
Eve is so unforgiving that 2vs1 one is the situation where 1 has to run real fast, or loose. If you show up on local, you are already found. Best you can do is cloak up and wait till your enemy is tired. You can not actually kick their ass, in fact, you bring a pvp gang and your enemy runs.


That's not even true. The other week I was doing some Faction Warfare with two other guys. We had a tackle frig, a Thrasher and a Rupture and we jumped a Retribution on his safe spot. He kicked the crap out of all three of us lol.

Oh god.
Inquisitor Kitchner
The Executives
#91 - 2012-10-16 12:03:44 UTC
Opertone wrote:
what can encourage people to take more RISKs??? Nothing, in fact eve is far too risky.

EVE is hard enough, nobody wants to grind another week to afford a new battleship.
.



Are you for real?

The only times I ever lost a ship doing level 4 missions was because I was a moron and alt tabbed out of the game to chat on MSN and not paid attention what what was actually going on.

If I paid as much attention to mission running as I did to ratting I'd have never lost a ship. So far ratting in Nullsec I've lost 2 drakes ratting because I lost my attention for like 20 seconds and got unlucky.

High Sec is not hard and it's not challenging. If you just want to log in and AFK isk make thats fine, but you should be rewarding players who actually sit and play the game, and you should be rewarding players who put their assets at risk. Why?

Example figures that I made up:

50 mil isk per hour in high sec
60 mil isk per hour in null sec
Ratting ship cost = 150million isk

Say I play for 2 hours a day, 5 days a week. That's 10 hours.

500mil from High Sec
600mil from Null Sec

However say I lose my ship in that week because of null sec stuff it becomes:

500mil from High Sec
450mil from Null Sec

Suddenly it doesn't make sense to be ratting in nullsec even THOUGH it pays more. This also doesn't include any time you spend ship spinning because there are neutrals in system etc.

"If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli
Prince Kobol
#92 - 2012-10-16 12:28:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Part of the problem we have at the moment is that because people hate the goons soooo much, they will always disagree with anything they say regardless.

So if the all goons can kindly start to argue that null needs to be nerfed in to the ground then everybody will argue the opposite and null sec will get buffed :)

Also Indy in null sec is so bad its not even funny and it is infinitely easier to earn a **** load isk in HS then anywhere else

Actually I can not think of any reason why you would want to do Indy in null.
Marie Trudeau
Trudeau Industrie SA
#93 - 2012-10-16 12:33:43 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
What might help as well is to do something about some of the 24/7 Gatecamps


Nothing needs to be done about them. To stop those gatecamps would just be dumbing down the game and that will stir up a violent reaction in the community. There are shuttles, cloaks and jumpclones. All that is needed is for new players to learn to use them.

You can even fit a rookie ship with a cloak and a cap stable MWD for putting tacticals on gates with very limited skills.


I agree with this -- the gatecamps are a part of EVE, a core part, and shouldn't be changed. There are ways and means of getting in and out that can be learned.
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#94 - 2012-10-16 12:38:23 UTC
Opertone wrote:
Most stupid stuff in EVE.

Low sec, 1000% risk missions. PVE fits are weak, PVP fits suck at PVE, you make so little money that it is not worthwhile to bring PvP guard. There is not enough reward to compensate BODYGUARDs, lost PVE ship. But risk is 100 higher than current reward.

Only way to make low MISSIONS viable - collapsible warp gate, a certain key that takes you to the mission deadspace, so that noone except your team can interfere in your mission. At least it is fair for the PVE pilot, he can still be ganked on gate or station. But not while he is busy.


Nonsense.

The problem is that low-sec is by far the most risky space in the game to try and make money. Even WH-daytripping in a Drake is safer then low-sec PVE. Yet normal low-sec income simply nowhere near reflects that risk. When it finally does, players WILL come as shown by the influx in FW when they could rake in tons of relatively risk-free LP.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
LuckyQuarter
Eden Dominion Coalition
Scary Wormhole People
#95 - 2012-10-16 12:43:41 UTC
As someone who has spent several years in highsec, briefly ran a pos in wormhole space (mimicing null sec), and has now moved to lowsec - I can say the differences between the areas comes down to:

a) High Sec - Best place to learn to play the game at ones own pace and to build up skills/resources for an eventual move to wormholes, null, lowsec.
b) Wormholes/Nullsec - The idea of owning a system is amazing, and well rewards those corps that can promote teamwork. Unfortunately, not everyone is willing to see everything they've built get destroyed when someone stronger comes a long.....plus the constant scanning in wormholes becomes a chore.
c) Lowsec - Complicated. Rewards are higher than highsec and a lot of the restrictions imposed on highsec are removed. However, one has to constantly be wary of rampaging kids that seem to think its the highlight of their day to kill new guys hauler using a half dozen proteus's...On the plus side, low sec I think is much more exciting than highsec...the danger livens it up (isk is not that important) and the real benefit is community. Everyone gets to known each other in lowsec....Highsec is like faceless suburbia, lowsec is like tenant committee's for new york apartment buildings....if people don't like you, eventually they'll push you out. Or, you can make great friends.

What I'd love to see is to getting rid of the arbitrary barriers between high, low, null - the three various rule systems can get annoying. Better to have 1.0 be close to what high sec is now, 0.3-0.6 be a revised lowsec, and 0.0 - 0.2 be some mix of lowsec and null. I sure wish CCP could integrate everything better.

btw -- the biggest cognitive dissonance between highsec and lowsec I think, is not that highsec players are afraid of risk...it's that many of them, especially the pure industry players...just have no interest at all in pvp or the destructive side of the game. They want to build things..pure and simple. Risk in building, transporting, etc is fine....but the mindset is completely different from the roaming pvp player in lowsec that spends his entire time trying to destroy others so he can get his killmails/wealth. That is part of the issue that causes all these threads.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#96 - 2012-10-16 13:01:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Whiite
Marie Trudeau wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
What might help as well is to do something about some of the 24/7 Gatecamps


Nothing needs to be done about them. To stop those gatecamps would just be dumbing down the game and that will stir up a violent reaction in the community. There are shuttles, cloaks and jumpclones. All that is needed is for new players to learn to use them.

You can even fit a rookie ship with a cloak and a cap stable MWD for putting tacticals on gates with very limited skills.


I agree with this -- the gatecamps are a part of EVE, a core part, and shouldn't be changed. There are ways and means of getting in and out that can be learned.


would you be so kind as not to remove that line out of it context.

But your reactions show exactly why you can't get those highsec dwellers to 0.0

It has far little to do with Risk and rewards.

Highsec has had a nerf on Incursions and missions, did that increase the number that went to 0.0?

Personaly I think the 0.0. mechanics are for more the reason not to go there than the risk reward, poeple with limited time don't wish to be bothered with Alliance politics and the like, they will not come with the current souverinity system.
Anslo
Scope Works
#97 - 2012-10-16 13:05:34 UTC
I don't want more risk in high sec. Therefore, no.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#98 - 2012-10-16 13:09:26 UTC
Zhade Lezte wrote:
I don't get why someone always has to chime in with the "You can't *FORCE* me into null! Therefore don't fix the game, tia." argument in these types of threads. :cripes: No one can force you to move into null, low, or anywhere else. Get over yourself, this is about the game as a whole and better risk/reward, not dictating your individual choices.

So true.

It's not about *forcing* anyone, anywhere. It's about making SOV Null worth "living" in. I bet most people don't know that some Hi-Sec *systems* have more manufacturing capacity than some Null Sec Sov REGIONS, and *no* way to increase that for the Sov Holder....

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#99 - 2012-10-16 13:13:37 UTC
Opertone wrote:
Solstice Project

good trolling

High rewards do matter, but risks that are 100 times greater prevent all attempts.

It is the ratio of risk to reward - if it was 1:10 to win 100 mill ISK - this is kind of reward people may want to try.

Today it is 1:100 to win 15 mill ISK. Contrast more than 60 times!!!

Low sec mission runners need to be protected while in mission pocket!


Why do lo-sec mission runners need to be protected, particularly? People mission quite successfully in NPC 0.0

Could it be that the risk isn't actually quite as high as you assume?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Incindir Mauser
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#100 - 2012-10-16 13:39:45 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Incindir Mauser wrote:

Har har. I bow before your cleverness. I actually do live in W-space. It's so good it needs to happen Everywhere.

Empire needs more stick and less carrot.

So yet another person who doesn't live in highsec telling highseccers what's good for 'em.

Bit like all these 0.0 poasters waxing lyrically about what's good for highsec - even telling you they DO have alts in highsec - they just don't post on them.

Gaaa.......


We know what's best for you. It's all over except for the screaming and the tears.