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Gallente Ice Interdiction Resumes

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Selinate
#101 - 2012-10-16 00:57:19 UTC
Touval Lysander wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I shall refer you to the phenomenon known as opportunity cost

The value of the minerals you mine is not only determined by how much someone is willing to pay for them but by what else you could have been doing in the time it takes to mine them.

Tippia or Akita_T can explain it a lot better than I can

If they were to apply RL economics, ofc they can. So too could I.

And if I were to do so, I'd tell you to get a job, earn $45 in an hour, buy yourself 3 plex and make 1.8b IN ONE HOUR.

Any RL economic argument that wants to play "VR time as a cost" needs to include an RL equivalent which completely squashes ANY need to even play for isk at all.

>>>>> "what else you could have been doing in the time it takes to mine them"

Exactly what I'm saying.

Ganking should NOT be done nor can it be argued as requiring profit as the motivation. There is no need. Ever.

Ganking shouldn't be done for the profit?

Oh, I think the last freighter the goons popped would beg to differ...
captain foivos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#102 - 2012-10-16 00:59:39 UTC
Man, Marlona is still really mad about being banned from kugu by Mittens.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#103 - 2012-10-16 01:11:15 UTC
Selinate wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I shall refer you to the phenomenon known as opportunity cost

The value of the minerals you mine is not only determined by how much someone is willing to pay for them but by what else you could have been doing in the time it takes to mine them.

Tippia or Akita_T can explain it a lot better than I can

If they were to apply RL economics, ofc they can. So too could I.

And if I were to do so, I'd tell you to get a job, earn $45 in an hour, buy yourself 3 plex and make 1.8b IN ONE HOUR.

Any RL economic argument that wants to play "VR time as a cost" needs to include an RL equivalent which completely squashes ANY need to even play for isk at all.

>>>>> "what else you could have been doing in the time it takes to mine them"

Exactly what I'm saying.

Ganking should NOT be done nor can it be argued as requiring profit as the motivation. There is no need. Ever.

Ganking shouldn't be done for the profit?

Oh, I think the last freighter the goons popped would beg to differ...

Didn't say it CAN'T be, I said it SHOULDN'T be.

Besides the argument was whether time mining to MAKE a gankmobile can be considered as a "cost" to improve the profitability of the gank.

If profit was the pure motivation then there are much better ways to make the time used in Eve more profitable.

Why bother ganking for profit?

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#104 - 2012-10-16 01:11:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Touval Lysander wrote:

If they were to apply RL economics, ofc they can. So too could I.

And if I were to do so, I'd tell you to get a job, earn $45 in an hour, buy yourself 3 plex and make 1.8b IN ONE HOUR.

Any RL economic argument that wants to play "VR time as a cost" needs to include an RL equivalent which completely squashes ANY need to even play for isk at all.

>>>>> "what else you could have been doing in the time it takes to mine them"

Exactly what I'm saying.

Ganking should NOT be done nor can it be argued as requiring profit as the motivation. There is no need. Ever.


A job you say? $45 an hour you say? There's these things called economies, with few exceptions they're not in a good state globally. Where I live there are 1500 people going for every job that comes up, and believe me none of them are paying $45 an hour.

In real money terms (to me) $45 an hour is £28 an hour, I know very few people who earn even close to that.

I'm a specialist auto electrician by trade, I specialised in fitting optional entertainment systems into high end vehicles such as Bentley & Rolls Royce, as well as aftermarket electronics into cars that the average consumer can't fit their own stuff into because of technologies such as CANBUS and MOST, that trade is dead, nobody has the money anymore to purchase the stuff let alone pay for it to be fitted, long gone are the days when people would spend £10k on vehicle enhancements. I'm looking for a permanent job, I have paid good money to train new skills, the jobs that are out there have more applicants than they know what to do with. I'm currently doing casual work on building sites to keep a roof over my head and food in my belly, and that work is drying up.

Now talk to me about real life economics.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#105 - 2012-10-16 01:38:41 UTC
captain foivos wrote:
Man, Marlona is still really mad about being banned from kugu by Mittens.

I see you're having to resort to an alt and trying to change the subject. I suggest you start a new thread.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#106 - 2012-10-16 01:45:53 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:

If they were to apply RL economics, ofc they can. So too could I.

And if I were to do so, I'd tell you to get a job, earn $45 in an hour, buy yourself 3 plex and make 1.8b IN ONE HOUR.

Any RL economic argument that wants to play "VR time as a cost" needs to include an RL equivalent which completely squashes ANY need to even play for isk at all.

>>>>> "what else you could have been doing in the time it takes to mine them"

Exactly what I'm saying.

Ganking should NOT be done nor can it be argued as requiring profit as the motivation. There is no need. Ever.


A job you say? $45 an hour you say? There's these things called economies, with few exceptions they're not in a good state globally. Where I live there are 1500 people going for every job that comes up, and believe me none of them are paying $45 an hour.

In real money terms (to me) $45 an hour is £28 an hour, I know very few people who earn even close to that.

I'm a specialist auto electrician by trade, I specialised in fitting optional entertainment systems into high end vehicles such as Bentley & Rolls Royce, as well as aftermarket electronics into cars that the average consumer can't fit their own stuff into because of technologies such as CANBUS and MOST, that trade is dead, nobody has the money anymore to purchase the stuff let alone pay for it to be fitted, long gone are the days when people would spend £10k on vehicle enhancements. I'm looking for a permanent job, I have paid good money to train new skills, the jobs that are out there have more applicants than they know what to do with. I'm currently doing casual work on building sites to keep a roof over my head and food in my belly, and that work is drying up.

Now talk to me about real life economics.

That's a sad situation, particualrly for a tradee. I'm on $80+/hr (AU) and I'm sem-retired so I s'pose I just picked the right profession.

But regardless, unless you're RMT, nothing in Eve will change what happens in RL in a meaningful way so it's a moot point.

The converse is true though - what you do in RL CAN effect what you do in Eve. Where we intend to cojoin RL and VR economic theories we need to be cognizant of that fact and adjust our arguments accordingly to include BOTH as a possible source of income.

The fact is, once done like that, NOTHING in Eve comes close to ISK conversion as does RL >> VR.

TLDR: People are happy to include RL theory behind many arguments (including me) but are happy to discard it just as readily when it suits too.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#107 - 2012-10-16 01:48:40 UTC
You're lucky then, Australia is one of the few countries that isn't suffering in the current economic climate.
If I could amass the points required to emigrate I would.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#108 - 2012-10-16 01:52:23 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Andski wrote:

what


ICE procuror fits can AFK for about 30 minutes & have ~5X the eHP... will be interesting if they start popping up or if cheap retiervers replace the MACs in the ice fields



Why do you yell every time you say "ice?" Or has that word been backronym'ed in the EVE context whilst I was away?

Ni.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#109 - 2012-10-16 04:09:38 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Just pointing out. They still dont tank their ships.

What I heard, they don't need to. CCP did it for them.


You heard or read Baltec Zim and Darth too?

But seems they can still gank ships. It's good news for them, bad for idiots.


We are teaching bad miners the difference between not profitable to gank and ungankable.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#110 - 2012-10-16 04:43:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Just pointing out. They still dont tank their ships.

What I heard, they don't need to. CCP did it for them.


You heard or read Baltec Zim and Darth too?

But seems they can still gank ships. It's good news for them, bad for idiots.


We are teaching bad miners the difference between not profitable to gank and ungankable.


You're a charity P, teaching people how to mine responsibly without profiting from the lessons.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack
Powers Sa
#111 - 2012-10-16 04:57:42 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:

Go to belt, launch drones, turn on ice harvester and go do something else. 116,662 EHP. For added fun toss in Tengu shield bonuses to bring that up to 157,352 EHP. Welcome to AFK PvP.

Sure you won't be getting that amazing ice yield, but instead you will bask in the glory of ganker tears and after all, can you really put a price on those? Cool


PLEASE do this, and tell me what system you are in. Please oh please oh please.



Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:


Thanks.

The gankers always say we are 'stupid' for not tanking 100%.

For me, it's RISK vs REWARD. Not stupidity.

And I will almost always fit for max yield.

...and not been blown up while mining in over 1yr, 8 months.

Those miners who do get exploded are AFK, period.

I keep seeing you login and off on krixtal and your alts. I've been too lazy to react. I guess I need to do something about that.


Marlona Sky wrote:
Saw nine tornados on scan, aligned out. When they landed I warped off. Was immediately called a "f****** f**** coward!" in local. Please explain the amount of extreme rage these gankers have? Why are they so mad? Might be due to a couple of them smashing their face into my brick tanks fist seven times, but I thought this was just a game.

Saving the logs for now to milk them a bit longer before reporting the two highly upset gankers for their unkind words. Also having fun using a Kitsune with Gallente jammers to jam all these Catalysts the moment they go flashy.

I love this!


That wasn't my group, if you tell me who it was , i have a falcon on deck.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#112 - 2012-10-16 05:02:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Touval Lysander wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Just pointing out. They still dont tank their ships.

What I heard, they don't need to. CCP did it for them.


You heard or read Baltec Zim and Darth too?

But seems they can still gank ships. It's good news for them, bad for idiots.


We are teaching bad miners the difference between not profitable to gank and ungankable.

You could, you know, just send 'em an email.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
#113 - 2012-10-16 05:05:39 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


If you want to fit for max yield, then you risk getting suicide ganked... The choice is yours... and CCP should not hold your hand and protect you anymore than they already have!!!




Thanks.

The gankers always say we are 'stupid' for not tanking 100%.

For me, it's RISK vs REWARD. Not stupidity.

And I will almost always fit for max yield.

...and not been blown up while mining in over 1yr, 8 months.

Those miners who do get exploded are AFK, period.

Now where did I see you last?

Oh, around Orva and Thiarer, that's right, the Derelik region. Can't recall you mining in the lowsec territories around there though.

Might go take a look with my cynnie or.... tornado.

Wave won't you.

"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#114 - 2012-10-16 05:07:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Touval Lysander wrote:

You could, you know, just send 'em an email.


LOL where's the fun in that? Nothing says hello like a tier 3 BC to the face Pirate

Apologies for my little rant earlier BTW, I went off the rails a bit there.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Herr Hammer Draken
#115 - 2012-10-16 05:36:39 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:


If true here comes the Procuror multi boxers to GALL space that'll makethe 20 box retriever fleets look like sharks in a school of sardines


English translation, people will afk mine ice in multiboxed Procurors.

The truth is that even if they did, they wouldn't fit tanks, they would fit for yield/cargo and would die to a suicide gank, not to mention that the ore hold is too small to make it really viable.

36 minutes for 12 blocks of ice is a sizeable amount of time invested for the return even in a cheap barge like a Procuror.


And in the end of it all, after all the whining by both sides gankers and miners alike, we have the truth come out. Ganks will always happen in high sec. Tank does not matter, profit does not matter, ganks will continue. This is the ultimate truth.
So tank your miner or not, it realy makes no difference if they want you gone gone you will be.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#116 - 2012-10-16 05:38:24 UTC
^ You should play some dramatic music, the next time you post that.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Taiwanistan
#117 - 2012-10-16 05:48:55 UTC
How do I mine ice without any mining skills trained?

TA on wis: "when we have a feature that is its own functional ecosystem of gameplay then hooks into the greater ecosystem of EVE as a whole, and it provides good replayability."
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#118 - 2012-10-16 05:52:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
rodyas wrote:
^ You should play some dramatic music


I'd be partial to Ride Of The Valkyries, epic piece of music to lay down some gank to.

yeah I ninja edited the quote P

Taiwanistan wrote:
How do I mine ice without any mining skills trained?


Gun mining sir, explode the containing vessel, steal the ice Pirate

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#119 - 2012-10-16 05:53:43 UTC
Powers Sa wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:

Go to belt, launch drones, turn on ice harvester and go do something else. 116,662 EHP. For added fun toss in Tengu shield bonuses to bring that up to 157,352 EHP. Welcome to AFK PvP.

Sure you won't be getting that amazing ice yield, but instead you will bask in the glory of ganker tears and after all, can you really put a price on those? Cool


PLEASE do this, and tell me what system you are in. Please oh please oh please.


Not done the the actual Skiff, but I have been using a tanked out Mackinaw. Skiff right now screams tank, so they will avoid it till last. As far as me informing you of the alt I am using, no. If for some reason I do lose the ship, I will post it here on the forums and give you a tiny battle report of what it took and anything else juicy like chat logs from what I already have been seeing when they fail to kill me.

My only suggestion is to keep ganking and keep hoping. So far for today and yesterday I have managed to cause the death of 4 Tornadoes and 16 Catalysts. Granted it is not much, but like I mentioned before, the rage and tears from the gankers has been more than worth it.

I am a bit out of the loop on how you guys went from claiming on the forums that the new mining barges were the result of too many miners crying because you were suicide ganking them, and thus claiming the mining barge tank buff was over the top. Yet here you are. Ganking again, when you claimed it was impossible/completely not worth it. But please carry on, this has been amusing. I would have to say the best part was when I went afk to see a sneak peak of the new James Bond movie, Skyfall and came back to see my ship was still alive (missing one drone, strange) and had 4 Catalyst kill mails.

P.S. Skyfall is bad ass.
pussnheels
Viziam
#120 - 2012-10-16 06:22:21 UTC
Tarassse wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
some people never learn , as was predicted when the mining barges rebalance came out
If people AFK mine in their unprotected mack , that is up to them , nobody is to blame only the AFK miner


So let me get this straight.

Before the mining barges' improvements, it was the miners' fault if they were suicide-ganked, because they did not tank their ship. I can understand that and agree.
Now, after they had an improvement on their ships to tank better, and even if the rigs,low/med slots are used to tank, it is their fault if they die, because they mine AFK? Do note that whether their mackinaw is tanked or not, it still dies to 2 catalysts in 0.6.

Have you ever mined? Even if you begin doing it while being completely awake, it is sooooo boring that you'll end up falling asleep anyway.

The barge buff was not that necessary. The mining profession just needed to be less boring to entertain miners and force them to stay awake in front of their screen.

before the rebalance it was pretty difficult to tank a exhumer especially a mack , now you can actually tank those things to protect them against ganks , but people just put in a third MLU instead, the large ore bay is there for the solo mining ops , so you don't have to fly back every 5 minutes to unload , i DO NOT think it was intended for the the SOLE purpose to afk mine
a miner can prevent ganks 99% of the time when he is at the Keyboard
so yes if you get ganked in your mack you got only yourself to blame

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire