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Dev blog: The Retribution of Team Super Friends

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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#801 - 2012-10-15 18:53:10 UTC
Esker Sheep wrote:
Xylorn Hasher wrote:
New bounty system will cause a big problems for Yarrbears.
Going to lowsec to shoot someone ocassionally and then going back to hisec to farm / trade whatever will be very risky for them.
That's too bad cuz people needs a place for getting started their PvP experience and this change will not encourage them to do it .
So in long term this will cause less people will go to lowsec for pew and those who will decide to do it will be less experienced.


I'm not so sure about this. Sure the kill rights can be traded, but its only valid for 15 mins. Once your suspect flag gets tripped you will get a flag appearing, and no doubt an accompanying notification. Unless you are unfortunate enough to be near a bunch of insta-lockers you should be able to escape and either bounce safe spots, or some such until the flag has expired. Once this has happened that kill right is wiped.

Remember the crimewatch changes will mean that kill rights will only be given out for kills in high-sec and pod kills in low-sec. I can't see this disuading people from piracy in low-sec.

The kill right will not be wiped. It only gets wiped after 30 days pass, or the perp gets killed during kill right activation period.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#802 - 2012-10-15 18:57:02 UTC
Bodega Cat wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
[quote=Gris X]
I'm going to just stop you right there. If you're in the position to "aquire a killright from someone else", that "killright" is publically available. Which means that if someone had a killright on me, which they put up for public activation, then I can activate it at my own choosing.



What you are not realizing is it will be conventional to price your kill right somewhere in the realm of what I lost when you ganked me in order to generate that right.

If you want to pay me the money back (or anyone else does for that matter) you made me lose (after insurance), just to clear your name so people won't hunt you, then thats fine.

We get to call it even then.

Understand?

People aren't going to buy 120-million-ISK kill rights to kill T2 fit battlecruisers, especially after a few weeks pass and the kill right scams will become commonly known.

Also, even if people do buy overpriced kill rights, then I just wait until someone does, then switch to a shuttle and pop myself with an alt. The end result is that while you will get money, I, the person who made crime all over your face, go unpunished.

But like I said, 99.9% of this system's usage will be scam-based, for kill rights that cost anything more than a token amount.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Reticle
Sight Picture
#803 - 2012-10-15 20:02:17 UTC
J Kunjeh wrote:
What the...? Yeah, you should NEVER be AFK travelling...period. So any mechanic that makes it easy to do so should be canned immediately.

Anyone who tells you that they never AFK travel is a liar.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#804 - 2012-10-15 20:18:59 UTC
Reticle wrote:
Anyone who tells you that they never AFK travel is a liar.
I never AFK travel. There's no reason to do it so why on earth would you?
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#805 - 2012-10-15 20:32:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Reticle wrote:
J Kunjeh wrote:
What the...? Yeah, you should NEVER be AFK travelling...period. So any mechanic that makes it easy to do so should be canned immediately.

Anyone who tells you that they never AFK travel is a liar.

Here are my criteria for AFK travel:

1. Am I at war?
2. Is my security status less than -2?
3. Am I flying anything larger than a shuttle?
4. Am I carrying anything?
5. Does anyone have kill rights on me?

If the answer to any of the above five questions is "yes," then I don't AFK travel.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Bodega Cat
Expedition Spartica
#806 - 2012-10-15 21:33:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Bodega Cat
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Bodega Cat wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
[quote=Gris X]
I'm going to just stop you right there. If you're in the position to "aquire a killright from someone else", that "killright" is publically available. Which means that if someone had a killright on me, which they put up for public activation, then I can activate it at my own choosing.



What you are not realizing is it will be conventional to price your kill right somewhere in the realm of what I lost when you ganked me in order to generate that right.

If you want to pay me the money back (or anyone else does for that matter) you made me lose (after insurance), just to clear your name so people won't hunt you, then thats fine.

We get to call it even then.

Understand?

People aren't going to buy 120-million-ISK kill rights to kill T2 fit battlecruisers, especially after a few weeks pass and the kill right scams will become commonly known.

Also, even if people do buy overpriced kill rights, then I just wait until someone does, then switch to a shuttle and pop myself with an alt. The end result is that while you will get money, I, the person who made crime all over your face, go unpunished.

But like I said, 99.9% of this system's usage will be scam-based, for kill rights that cost anything more than a token amount.


Community sponsored/funded retribution is ultimately all the same.

If someone wants to reimburse me for some of my loss to take a stab at you, swing and miss, then its still a wash. I don't care who it is, i got some of my money back. I mean, it isn't a stretch to imagine that the majority of bounty hunters are going to fail... I can definately see that being the situation, particularly to the more skilled pirates. But this system at least is a bit more interesting than the current ones. On occassion, a good bounty hunter just might out play, or outgame the odd person with kill rights...

I think you'll find that in practice, people will be inclined to utilize it more rationally in this way. Besides, if the right is particularly high priced, now you have to spend 30 days flying around not entirely sure if someone is ever going to trigger it, and you'll have to do it in relatively un-sexy ships if you want to make sure no one does. Not a position the average griefer is going to want to sign up for on the reg...

I'm making a point to edit, that i won't argue that this system won't ultimately be meta-gamed into something un-intended. All sandbox features end up like that. But I don't think the scenario you seem to illustrate will be how it settles once the dust clears. It will be obscure for some other reason...
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#807 - 2012-10-15 21:43:47 UTC
Here's what I would do:

Undock a faction battleship, or maybe a hauler with faction loot inside it or something, and pretend to be afk. Someone pays your massively overpriced kill right fee because they think it will be worth it, and I get attacked. I dock, switch to a shuttle, undock, fly to a safe, and kill myself with an alt.

Understand? You'll get the money, yes, but I won't be punished in any way or form.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Villani Capelli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#808 - 2012-10-15 22:04:24 UTC
Clearly there are so much exploits with this kill rights proposed system that CPP won't implement this way. Sometimes you create a "draft" after one internal meeting and throw to the community for validation, it's faster.

They are trying to eliminate 1x1 flagging from the system, trying to reuse the suspect flag for this. I really like the new global suspect flag, but it will be useless for kill rights.

I think that making kill rights tradable is a better option. And I also think that the value of destroyed items should be used in the mix. I like any idea who allows the creation of bounty hunting corps.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#809 - 2012-10-15 22:06:02 UTC
Villani Capelli wrote:
Clearly there are so much exploits with this kill rights proposed system that CPP won't implement this way.

That's what we said about FW too. How did that turn out? What makes you think this time will be different?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Villani Capelli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#810 - 2012-10-15 22:07:06 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Villani Capelli wrote:
Clearly there are so much exploits with this kill rights proposed system that CPP won't implement this way.

That's what we said about FW too. How did that turn out? What makes you think this time will be different?


I want to believe.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#811 - 2012-10-15 22:16:41 UTC
I want to believe too, but after so many years I know better than that.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#812 - 2012-10-15 22:37:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Anselm Cenobite wrote:
Hmm. That seems to me a potential loophole. If the "personal" bounty amount on the individual pilot always pays out before the "corp bounty" or "alliance bounty" does, could a guy who has a small "personal/individual" bounty on his head and a whopping huge "corp/alliance" bounty on his corp or alliance defer the bigger reward for the corp/alliance bounty by using an alt to continuously place small individual / personal bounties on his own head?

I.e., if the corp/alliance bounty was worth 100 billion isk (hypothetically), and the individual bounty was 5 million isk, and the 5-million individual bounty has to be paid first before dipping into the "less personal" alliance/corp bounty, could his alt keep putting strings of 5 million-isk bounties on the main character's head so that if he is ganked, the pay-out is initially limited to 5 million, but the bigger 100 billion will not become available until the next time he's killed? That would give him a chance once he's podded to log on the alt and renew the 5 million isk bounty, unless CCP specifically sets the payment up in such a way that the reward for the persona/individual bounty "spills over" into the alliance/corp bounty on a single kill, rather than the later bounty not activating until the next kill after the first is paid off.

I believe chances are it will probably pay out the remainder of the tiny bounty followed by the next most relevant. Either that or it will simply draw from the corporate bounty first since that's the one that will pay the most (like CCP has confirmed it will do if a higher-tier bounty is given a ranking bonus). Good question though, I too would like to hear CCP's answer about this (as trivial as it really is).

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Villani Capelli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#813 - 2012-10-15 22:40:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Villani Capelli
My 5 cents, sorry about Engrish:

- Technically, create a templated item called Kill Right. This item will have “targetPlayerId”, “iskAmount” and “expirationDate” fields;

- When a ship is destroyed that would give a kill right, the system takes the ISK amount lost and divide proportionally with every player involved with the kill, by damage caused to the target. Number of players should have a hard max limit to avoid 1000 players doing 10 damage each to a ship and a creation of 1000 kill rights;

- Of course CCP will have to use some kind of less exploitable ISK value calculator, to avoid market manipulation. I think they are working on it;

- The system creates one Kill Right item for each attacker and delivers somehow to the killed player. Maybe drop it at your home station, claimable, I don’t know how;

- This kill right item would be a consumable that can be used several times. When you use this item, you gain one of the following, to be decided which implementation is better:

1- Every time that the kill right target is at the same space pocket that you are, they automagically get a suspect flag. Everyone can attack (reusing flag system, without 1x1 flags);

2- You gain a 1x1 flag against the target. Only you or corp can attack;

- When the ship of the target of kill right is destroyed, the system check everyone involved in the kill and discount the ISK amount from every Kill Right item. The item vanishes after X days or ISK amount <= 0. This is problematic, I still don’t think of an easy way to “find” every Kill Right item owned by the players involved with the kill. Maybe the suspect flag could store the original Kill Right item id;

- As other templated items, only tradable by Contracts. Implement new search fields to search by target name and ISK amount.
Bodega Cat
Expedition Spartica
#814 - 2012-10-15 22:56:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Bodega Cat
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Here's what I would do:

Undock a faction battleship, or maybe a hauler with faction loot inside it or something, and pretend to be afk. Someone pays your massively overpriced kill right fee because they think it will be worth it, and I get attacked. I dock, switch to a shuttle, undock, fly to a safe, and kill myself with an alt.

Understand? You'll get the money, yes, but I won't be punished in any way or form.



You can't fix stupid. Yes, eve is filled with idiots that will be taken advantage of and smart pirates will be able to exploit to keep those kill rights wiped.

However, their will be a percentage of smart people that could turn the odds in their own favor, and catch people that are assuming they have an exploitable situation under control.

Docking games are changing too, and a smart play might get a clutch bump off you, then double web ya and get you with your pants down.

We see that a lot in EVE too. The tables do turn, i know its hard to believe that when reading the forums as all you ever see are winners around these parts... but come on,...

Theirs ways to game every feature, thats the way things will always be in EVE.

We have a romantisized view of conflict, and think theirs a way to ultimately apply it to a sandbox game, but that is strictly delusional. I wish i could sing a "pirates life is for me, yo - ho", but thats just mythology talkin, not reality.

In reality, conflict boils down to advantages seized in whatever possible way.

In the above scenario, you take advantage of a dumb hunter, and i get some of my money back. We both pass the suck on to someone else. Theirs a game in that, its just not the one we "wish" it could be sometimes.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#815 - 2012-10-15 23:02:20 UTC
Bodega Cat wrote:
Docking games are changing too, and a smart play might get a clutch bump off you, then double web ya and get you with your pants down.

How are you going to catch a shuttle on the undock? No, seriously. How are you going to do that, especially with the existence of instant undock bookmarks?

Bodega Cat wrote:
In the above scenario, you take advantage of a dumb hunter, and i get some of my money back. We both pass the suck on to someone else. Theirs a game in that, its just not the one we "wish" it could be.

This will literally work for the first week, at which point people will learn not to buy any kill rights worth more than a few million ISK. How much does the cheapest exhumer cost?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Bodega Cat
Expedition Spartica
#816 - 2012-10-15 23:10:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Bodega Cat
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Bodega Cat wrote:
Docking games are changing too, and a smart play might get a clutch bump off you, then double web ya and get you with your pants down.

How are you going to catch a shuttle on the undock? No, seriously. How are you going to do that, especially with the existence of instant undock bookmarks?

Bodega Cat wrote:
In the above scenario, you take advantage of a dumb hunter, and i get some of my money back. We both pass the suck on to someone else. Theirs a game in that, its just not the one we "wish" it could be.

This will literally work for the first week, at which point people will learn not to buy any kill rights worth more than a few million ISK. How much does the cheapest exhumer cost?


The person says they were baiting in a faction battleship or something, not a shuttle.

Your model is you in a shuttle after someone blew a chance to tackle you, and you warp back shuttle up, and have your buddy pop your shuttle to wipe your kill rights correct? I can't keep them all straight at this point. Perfectly fine if so, you not only fooled the original dude you ganked, but now you fooled the dude who paid him off to take a stab at you. You are the superior predator on that given day, but the original guy who got ganked just got paid (and if he's doing it right, pretty decently in context of his loss).

However, if you don't think for a second their are not pilots out there with old world deep pockets of isk, and lots of combat experience to sink into a hefty kill right from to time to time when they can outsmart you, you are mistaken.

At least for the first few months until we boil this thing down into real obscurity.

Again, if you are arguing theirs going to be ways to game the system, then i'm in complete agreement.

Everything in sandbox games get meta'gamed into something the original design intent could never dream of.

Always.

The difference between you and I is I accept it, you still seem to think theirs a perfect system out there.

I say game on.

Boba Fet in reality was just some lame irrelevant character anyway.
Gris X
xDECOYx
DECOY
#817 - 2012-10-15 23:11:18 UTC
Anton Zuber wrote:


You're overlooking a much more dangerous truth. Suicides. If your bounty is high enough, and you are in an expensive enough ship, say your L4 mission ship worth 2 bil, they can collect a 400m bounty from killing you. That pays for a pretty intimidating suicide ship (or team) from the bounty alone, not to mention the salvage from your wreck.

You thought high sec was scary for bears before? It's about to get a whole lot worse.

Hmm, suiciding in high sec against a heavily tanked ship is still a risk that may not bear any fruits... I do not think it will as easy as ganking mining ships or stuff like that...
I am not saying it can't be done, but I do not see this becoming a norm or easy to do....
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#818 - 2012-10-15 23:16:31 UTC
Bodega Cat wrote:
However, if you don't think for a second their are not pilots out there with old world deep pockets of isk, and lots of combat experience to sink into a hefty kill right from to time to time when they can outsmart you, you are mistaken.

I'm one of those rich, experienced players, and I can tell you for a fact that it will be futile to utilize this system against any but the most unaware, unskilled players, just like can-baiting is today. Guess what? Those players are unlikely to be of the ganking caliber in the first place.

I think we agree by this point that all this system will do is pass the cost of loss from one aggrieved party to another. So please tell me, what exactly does this system add to the game? The ability for the person who got ganked to pass his tears on to the person that gets scammed? The net result is still one person who takes a loss. What's the point?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Bodega Cat
Expedition Spartica
#819 - 2012-10-15 23:26:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Bodega Cat
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Bodega Cat wrote:
However, if you don't think for a second their are not pilots out there with old world deep pockets of isk, and lots of combat experience to sink into a hefty kill right from to time to time when they can outsmart you, you are mistaken.

I'm one of those rich, experienced players, and I can tell you for a fact that it will be futile to utilize this system against any but the most unaware, unskilled players, just like can-baiting is today. Guess what? Those players are unlikely to be of the ganking caliber in the first place.

I think we agree by this point that all this system will do is pass the cost of loss from one aggrieved party to another. So please tell me, what exactly does this system add to the game? The ability for the person who got ganked to pass his tears on to the person that gets scammed? The net result is still one person who takes a loss. What's the point?


Great point, yes thats probably all it is going to do. But I think people are expecting too much out of this anyway. Glorious retribution, and a just world where theirs Cops and Robbers running around creating cinematic moments of mythisized greatness where carebears are chearing on there champions, and tough guy bad guys are running even flee'ing off to the deep dark reaches of space where they'll inevitably plot there next heist against some other dumb miner somewhere else.

Its not going to right anything essentially. Its going to make things all the more harsh and apparent for people until we establish a new norm.

The point for me is just more emergent gameplay. You're getting more people involved in the way we choose to interact in EVE.

Essentially create new things for people to do for a while. New tools to monkey around with.

Theirs dumb pirates too, i'm sure you can level with me there. The game will have its share of guys "doing it wrong" getting ganked by people who buy into the kill rights that just know the system, or the circumstances better than they thought they did (at least for a while).
Gris X
xDECOYx
DECOY
#820 - 2012-10-15 23:28:56 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Here's what I would do:

Undock a faction battleship, or maybe a hauler with faction loot inside it or something, and pretend to be afk. Someone pays your massively overpriced kill right fee because they think it will be worth it, and I get attacked. I dock, switch to a shuttle, undock, fly to a safe, and kill myself with an alt.

Understand? You'll get the money, yes, but I won't be punished in any way or form.


Why would someone spend the money to trigger the kill right in that situation.? A noob maybe once, and then will wise up for the next time...
I for one would bump your ship out of dock range before even considering paying for the suspect flag on you.... Oh, and I'll use HIC too...