Wormholes

I would have to say Probe Patrol engaged in good planning and scouting. They actually had over 40+ ships in the hole at one point, including if my count was accurate at least 11 Guardians, a number of Falcons and T3 support. Basically, the defending fleet couldn't match logi for logi and decided loosing a POS was far cheaper and wiser than an entire fleet . If I recall correctly, there were 8 Gila's and the attack occurred without POS gunners and with only a few defenders logged in.

I can't fault Probe, they brought it and the defending force had the wrong type of fleet in place. I also didn't see any vulgarities exchanged, but I also wasn't paying any attention to local. Good job Probe and there is always another place and another time.

The vulgarities were on coms: "Frickin bomb -pull in your drones!"

Fly safe M8 :)

Two Step proposed that C1to C4 space should not be as easy to defend as higher level systems. There are no restrictions on POS sizes and defenses anywhere in K space, and decreasing the ability to defend C1 to C4 systems would turn them into ghost towns.

It is a really bad idea...

I agree with you -a corp should have the ability to defend their assets, and it should not be easy to take them out. But if it seems like the defenses are too great, that it's limiting conflict, then fix what's actually broken and take the nerd bat to ECM.

ECM turns everyone in this game into hypocrites: We all use it, and at the same time we all cry foul when it is used against us. It's obviously broken because its over powered, so just nuke it already and put everyone on the same playing field.

If you're afterburning around, the drones are easy targets, especially to bombing runs. And while you can scoop them up and redeploy, you need to be able to target to get them shooting again. Even if the aggressive setting somehow works and they start shooting on their own, 60 drones aren't going to be shooting the same thing, so its largely irrelevant that they're attacking at all.

Your victory, while satisfying, was largely due to incompetent defense. Any tower can be taken down easily if there are no gunners, or if the setup is bad. I like the concept you went in with, but the outcome does nothing for the argument at hand.

I agree with you in part. It's true that it would have been more difficult if the tower had been better defended, but it would not have been impossible. To claim that POSes in C1 to C4 W space systems can't be taken out due to wormhole mass restrictions is a lie -it can be done, you're just not going to do it in a dreadnaught or a carrier. The real problem is ECM -balance it, nerf it, or just eliminate it completely from POS defenses and most of the problem with taking a POS in a lower class system is solved. But if ECM is changed then it needs to be changed for every W space system and not just the lower class ones.

It really depends on if you want to take control of the system.

As for finding a way back to our own system: There is always a scanning alt in our C2 (at least one) so that we always know what our exits are. Also when we decided to bash the POS we put scanning alts in the target system and left them their. So we went in, put the POS into re-enforced, left the target system (except for the scanners we left behind), and when the POS came out of re-enforced our scanning alt(s) scanned down the new entrance to the target system and we brought a fleet in. We had the system under surveillance the whole time, and our fleet was only tied up for the two operations.

Or you could just do what Xen does and log off every time someone enters your system and farms/ drake baits...

First time you logged out, second time we found your hole you watched us farm your hole clean and did nothing at all, then logged out....

Keep in mind that a C1 can only keep a few corp members busy. Anything more than 4-6 active players will quickly get bored in a C1 as the anomalies spawn rate will be way to low for the number of players looking to live there.

If you ever find a C1 with 10 large POSes, a fleet of caps, and 100 PVPers living in it. pinch yourself. You are dreaming. That does not exist. A C1 can not support such a setup. How would you even get enough supplies in with such small mass limits on the static. You would need to roll the static 10 times just to get a weeks worth of POS fuel in. It might be doable if it was a pure PVP corp that only used it as a staging point for raiding every incoming hole that connected to it. But don't the statics from C1 holes usually go to K-Space? So the only good targets would be incoming holes. I just don't see that as a even remotely feasible scenario.

Even if it was feasible, such a corp would have no problem holding a C3 or C4, even a C5 would not be much of a problem to control. Why the hell would such a large corp ever want to set up in a C1? Even if it could support them.

The most I would ever expect to see in a C1 is 1-2 large towers with 15-20 active toons most likely the alts of 4-6 actual players. And that would be really pushing it. There are many C1's with caps, usually a roqual and maybe a carrier for defense. But that is even extreme for a C1. C1 hole dwellers are mostly 1-2 man corps that can not hold a higher class hole.

The OP's test seems very realistic to me as a test for taking down a POS in a C1. You should expect to face a d*ckstar but many C1 dwellers are not very experienced players. the experienced ones almost always look for a higher class hole. This method of cruisers and sentries seem like a very good way of attacking a C1 or C2 hole. C3 and C4 will very likely but to well defended for this to work.

The only question I have is why? It is a C1, what did you get out of it besides a POS KM? Or is that all you were after? Did you really expect a good fight in a C1? They are not really worth defending.

Two Step had proposed limiting tower sizes in lower class W space because he said that it was too difficult to take down a tower in those systems. IMHO it's a terrible idea because it would turn C1 to C4 space into a ghost town, and if there is a problem with POS defenses being over powered the solution is to take the nerf bat to ECM. The entire operation was simply a proof of concept mission, nothing more.

I don't mind small gang PvP. But my point was, that if it was a lot easier (correct me if I am wrong) there is large corporations or alliances out there that live in there C5-C6. Have plenty of members and collapse holes and are out on roams in order to find someone to kill...
In reality these people are never more then 2-4 WH's away. I can understand the fun in it for these people to effectively be able to take down POS's with only T3 cruiser in smaller WH's. At the same time the inhabitants of these WH's can't do **** against them because they have capital support in their own WH and a huge numbers advantage.

I can easily see that everyone will be more dependent on huge numbers in order to be able to defend their POS's.
There is two ways this can go.
1. People recruit more players and moves up in the WH's
2. Large alliances will cleanse the smaller WH's or force the inhabitants to pay ransom and chose side against other large alliances.

The problem with 1 is that WH's isn't new, and there isn't a big influx of player atm. So I think that those that really, really wanted to live in WH has already tried it or is already doing it.
We can certainly shift the percentages up or down a little bit, but a new equilibrium will be met and we are back where we started but with slightly higher numbers on both side of the engagement.

The problem with 2 is that you take away the freedom for small corps. As proven, it is very doable to take them down today with some determination. If it was easier it would be even more lucrative for bigger alliances to do as you yourself claims are doing. forcing smaller entity's to pay ransom. This will only be doable if a real threat of being ousted is there. Eve isn't big and I don't think it will take that many alliances in the top in order to spin through WH's and it will be even harder for smaller corps to hide and do their thing.

If I wanted to pay for my POS, I could just go out in 0.0 and pay an alliance out there.

What numbers of players do you think are reasonable to have in order to live in a C1 or a C2?
I would say that if you are 3-4 persons you are pushing it. These are the same people you want to go out and defend against ~10 pilots that are there because they know that they can with relative ease take down you POS. If you make it easier, People won't be bringing less pilots, because everyone will want to be part of it, but instead you will just make it faster for the conquering side. Thus making it even more fun to be there, and that will draw even more pilots.
I believe that the best defence in lower class WH's has always been to keep the valuables to a minimum and don't fly fancy ship that people will go out of their way to get on the KB. Making it easier to take down POS's won't change our ability to defend our self in any significant way (As proven, a determined foe will take us out anyway) but rather lower the threshold for people to attack us. And that will most likely not be the 3 pilot corp next door in a C2.

I haven't checked the bio or corp belonging on anyone here, but I bet that few of you guys live in C1 or C2. The reasoning behind this is as follow. Active players tend to be drawn into bigger corps with more people to interact with and to be able to do more things together. The same active people also tend to be more active on the forums.
Try to look at it from the little persons view.
Again, I don't mind changes to the POS's and their defence. But I want it done for the right reasons. If the reason is to make it harder for small corps, then it is good to do it. Don't do changes just because someone wants an easier time harassing lower class WH's.
I can see the problem with POS bashing in general. It takes time and it is boring, especially if you live in 0.0 or higher class WH. By the time the fight is over (when the other side have lost their Capitals) it is just a core. But thats also more or less the only protection a small corp has.

Sorry it feels like I am here to mess up someones elses gameplay :-( I am just preaching for some balanced changes and even if I can understand the boredom of taking out a POS, this is my home and have been for years. The same Boredom has been my greatest ally over this time.