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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Overview Upgrade Suggestion (RADAR)

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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#101 - 2012-10-06 17:32:35 UTC
Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#102 - 2012-10-08 17:38:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Momaki
Oh well, I should read first :D

Actually, what's the difference between local and a system which scans the system every 0.5 seconds ( if you let players do this, they will do ) and warns you if there's someone dangerous?

Oh, and Cloaking is the effort of pushing one button. It shouldn't be hard at all to have a warning for cloaks - especially not that hard as you suggest.

Imho, this idea fails pretty hard. Yes, local is pretty powerful, but this is not the way to solve it in my opinion, since it's not a balanced change at all, and it will harm all kinds of low/null PvE way more than it harms PvP.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#103 - 2012-10-08 17:46:38 UTC
Hans Momaki wrote:
I know you probably don't care about it, but:

D-SCAN .... [...] D-SCAN,

is not a funny nor a gameplay-enhancing feature, and although Intel through local is OP, I can't support a "feature" forcing players to do so. It's flawed mechanic in WH allready, no need to enhance this.

I could not agree with you more, regarding the value of something that does not force you to repeatedly click a button.

If you had read my OP, you would have noticed in three places where I agree, and specify how that would not be an issue.
Nikk Narrel wrote:
TL;DR: Add passive / active D-Scan information to the overview as an option.
Passive would be no effort, active would be toggled on to give a possible chance to detect if a cloaked vessel is in range, as well as boost effective range

...

Active scans can be toggled on, but need to be reset after anything that moves you off your current grid, like undocking / changing systems / warping to another spot in system.

...

Active scanning is similar to the current D-Scan, except it should be able to auto-cycle at user set speed.

And here you thought I wanted something you objected to... Nope!

We are on the same page.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#104 - 2012-10-08 17:52:13 UTC
Hans Momaki wrote:
Oh well, I should read first :D

Actually, what's the difference between local and a system which scans the system every 0.5 seconds ( if you let players do this, they will do ) and warns you if there's someone dangerous?

I will let the devs balance ranges of user cycling for the auto toggle.

They should understand that manual clicking will be done if the toggle is not fast enough, but we must accept that manually or automated toggling must fit into server load ranges.

That said, I think it will be fairly easy to have.

Difference to local?

Strategic value of information has quality levels.
Someone traveling through a system will be reported by local as in the system, alongside the gank minded fellow hunting for PvE fitted targets.

You can configure your sensors, and note the relative direction and distance to know them apart, at least to the degree possible.

The guy two asteroid belts over and getting closer probably is not just passing through, while the guy moving between gates is.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#105 - 2012-10-08 17:57:01 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Difference to local?

Strategic value of information has quality levels.
Someone traveling through a system will be reported by local as in the system, alongside the gank minded fellow hunting for PvE fitted targets.

You can configure your sensors, and note the relative direction and distance to know them apart, at least to the degree possible.

The guy two asteroid belts over and getting closer probably is not just passing through, while the guy moving between gates is.

I gotta qualify this. The guy hunting will want to look like he is not hunting.
Same way duck hunters use duck calls, and hide in camo covers, so the ducks won't be warned as easy.

Both sides are going to pick up tricks and strategies to get what they want, and the better players won't be as easily fooled.

I think this is how it should be.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#106 - 2012-10-08 18:00:46 UTC
True enough, pilots are pushed into an all or nothing attitude by the simplistic nature of using local for intel.

I am hoping more people realize the value of using sensors over chat channels for this.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#107 - 2012-10-08 18:27:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Momaki
The problem as it is is the following:

Players with a specific mindest will have a huge benefit , while players with a different mindest will get a huge kick in their balls.

The first group are those piwates, which are allways looking for an easy kill. I do live in 0.0. and most neutrals are those kind of piwates. They do everything they can to kill macks/hulks, but everytime instantly warped off as soon as I docked off in a combat ship. These kinds of players shouldn't be supported - they shouldn't have it easier as they have it currently. They get an easy kill or don't fight at all.. (this is so bad for various reasons)

The targets of these players are often PvE-dudes, mining or plexing or just grinding anoms. Especially miners do have no chance whatsoever in "got caught" - scenarios, and all the piwate needs to do is just checking dotlan for Ice-belts/PvE activity, warp to the belt, lock on, point, kill. If it's easy to get such a kill, it should be easy to avoid it aswell. That's what local is doing. Considering the Effort vs Effort to counter - ratio, this is allready pretty unbalanced.

I know (!) that eve is driven by stuff blowing up, and ppl want to fight (!). However, local will only enhance those kind of "piwate" behaviour, and this in return is not good for eve.

More "Piwate" activity is less SoV-driven conflict. If you like to fight, go out and join some major alliance, and create incentives to fight over (this is currently not happening that often, although highly needed). Create more player-driven conflicts, that is way better than removing the only safety PvE'rs have. And keep in mind, that especially less mining is not good for the economy, since it will drive prices up, and higher prices means more farming PvE for these piwates aswell.

And consider aswell that farming anoms in carriers is pretty huge ISK-faucet (which drives inflation) right now - would this happen in such dimensions if the space where it's done would be contested regularly?...

End of the line - consider the whole picture, instead of "how to make my playstyle easier". This is what happened with your suggestion, and it's a bad suggestion because of it.

However, I do agree that local is pretty much OP for warfare and tactics. Thats a valid point aswell.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#108 - 2012-10-08 18:42:50 UTC
Hans Momaki wrote:
End of the line - consider the whole picture, instead of "how to make my playstyle easier". This is what happened with your suggestion, and it's a bad suggestion because of it.

You misunderstand me.

I mine more than anything else, mostly on my alts. I also fly Logis, and CovOps up to and including black ops.

Parts of my "playstyle" would be changed, definitely.

The part you find me not agreeing with you about, is this:

This will give both miners and your piwates the ability to put in more effort, in exchange for better results.
Miners are not delicate flowers. Played properly, they are the backbone of many corps and alliances with the ability to draw out the foolish into exposing themselves to local fleets.

Teamwork, combined with the intel that I suggested in the OP, would make mining ops the worst target to consider in low or null.

Now, if you refer to solo players without support, they will always be at a disadvantage outside of high sec. This idea hardly makes that any worse, and in fact gives them the chance to use their wits to better survive.

Try not to make so many assumptions on my motivations.
If you have questions or points to raise, I will be happy to respond.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#109 - 2012-10-08 22:18:11 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Hans Momaki wrote:
End of the line - consider the whole picture, instead of "how to make my playstyle easier". This is what happened with your suggestion, and it's a bad suggestion because of it.

You misunderstand me.

I mine more than anything else, mostly on my alts. I also fly Logis, and CovOps up to and including black ops.

Parts of my "playstyle" would be changed, definitely.

The part you find me not agreeing with you about, is this:

This will give both miners and your piwates the ability to put in more effort, in exchange for better results.
Miners are not delicate flowers. Played properly, they are the backbone of many corps and alliances with the ability to draw out the foolish into exposing themselves to local fleets.

Teamwork, combined with the intel that I suggested in the OP, would make mining ops the worst target to consider in low or null.

Now, if you refer to solo players without support, they will always be at a disadvantage outside of high sec. This idea hardly makes that any worse, and in fact gives them the chance to use their wits to better survive.

Try not to make so many assumptions on my motivations.
If you have questions or points to raise, I will be happy to respond.


First of, I appologize if you are not that kind of "piwate" ( Those are the peeps most upset about local, usually coming up with "remove Intel so I can haz more miners on KB, because it bugs me that they are warping off!").

Actually, what you really want to do is more effort for less reward.

Currently, all you need is local and a quick D-scan to know whats going on. It is easy enough - you see a neut in local - you hit D-Scan - you see how many (local) and which ships (D-SCAN). If it's a cloacky - you won't see any unfamiliar ship.

Your suggestions will result in less reward, for more effort. I have to upgrade my ship's sensor strength, or add additional effort in form of dedicated scan-ships/pilots, for a "oh, there might be something" on my overview?

On the other side, cloaky's won't be detectable in a reasonable timeframe (i.e - you can't detect them before it is too late)?

srsly?
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2012-10-09 01:48:21 UTC
Hans Momaki wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Hans Momaki wrote:
End of the line - consider the whole picture, instead of "how to make my playstyle easier". This is what happened with your suggestion, and it's a bad suggestion because of it.

You misunderstand me.

I mine more than anything else, mostly on my alts. I also fly Logis, and CovOps up to and including black ops.

Parts of my "playstyle" would be changed, definitely.

The part you find me not agreeing with you about, is this:

This will give both miners and your piwates the ability to put in more effort, in exchange for better results.
Miners are not delicate flowers. Played properly, they are the backbone of many corps and alliances with the ability to draw out the foolish into exposing themselves to local fleets.

Teamwork, combined with the intel that I suggested in the OP, would make mining ops the worst target to consider in low or null.

Now, if you refer to solo players without support, they will always be at a disadvantage outside of high sec. This idea hardly makes that any worse, and in fact gives them the chance to use their wits to better survive.

Try not to make so many assumptions on my motivations.
If you have questions or points to raise, I will be happy to respond.


First of, I appologize if you are not that kind of "piwate" ( Those are the peeps most upset about local, usually coming up with "remove Intel so I can haz more miners on KB, because it bugs me that they are warping off!").

Actually, what you really want to do is more effort for less reward.

Currently, all you need is local and a quick D-scan to know whats going on. It is easy enough - you see a neut in local - you hit D-Scan - you see how many (local) and which ships (D-SCAN). If it's a cloacky - you won't see any unfamiliar ship.

Your suggestions will result in less reward, for more effort. I have to upgrade my ship's sensor strength, or add additional effort in form of dedicated scan-ships/pilots, for a "oh, there might be something" on my overview?

On the other side, cloaky's won't be detectable in a reasonable timeframe (i.e - you can't detect them before it is too late)?

srsly?




You are an idiot and you just don't get it.

Thanks for playing.

Good day.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#111 - 2012-10-09 13:42:04 UTC
Hans Momaki wrote:
Actually, what you really want to do is more effort for less reward.

Currently, all you need is local and a quick D-scan to know whats going on. It is easy enough - you see a neut in local - you hit D-Scan - you see how many (local) and which ships (D-SCAN). If it's a cloacky - you won't see any unfamiliar ship.

Your suggestions will result in less reward, for more effort. I have to upgrade my ship's sensor strength, or add additional effort in form of dedicated scan-ships/pilots, for a "oh, there might be something" on my overview?

On the other side, cloaky's won't be detectable in a reasonable timeframe (i.e - you can't detect them before it is too late)?

That which has no value is often free.

Local as intel is at best improvising. You have no quality judgement possible on the information, since it was meant simply to let you know who would be able to see your comments in a chat channel.

Are they AFK / Docked / Cloaked while AFK / Mining / Ratting / Missioning / Bearing down on your position with a fleet or a cyno with a fleet behind it?

Local will never clarify this. Nor should it be expected to.
You know that person can see your chat comment if they look at their local chat window. It's responsibility to you ends there.

Your ship's sensors should be used for all tactical and strategic information of a first hand nature. Chat channels should be used to chat, and while that can certainly include comments about intel, it should always be considered second hand at best.

This is a space ship game with a social aspect.
Not a social network game using space ships.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Teshania
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2012-10-09 20:45:53 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
[quote=Hans Momaki]
This is a space ship game with a social aspect.
Not a social network game using space ships.


Liked

We need a Bounty Button on the Forums
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#113 - 2012-10-10 17:51:58 UTC
Teshania wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
[quote=Hans Momaki]
This is a space ship game with a social aspect.
Not a social network game using space ships.


Liked

Thank you much! :)

Bump for more...

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#114 - 2012-10-12 13:34:36 UTC
Imagine playing a game where you had to rely on sensors to know what was around you.

If knowing was important to you, you could learn how to use your sensors better. Many would seek different paths, giving you an advantage because you could know more about what was around your ship than they could.

For special missions, where your sensor skills were of primary value, you could use ships with specialized sensor capabilities, and modules designed to enhance that hardware even more.
You are the scout, maybe even one employing covert means to spy on those who oppose your allies successes.

Now imagine that all being meaningless, because a chat channel hands out the intel for free, even things that should not be available such as stealth ships.

Let's leave the social aspects to the chat channel. Intel is worth only what it takes to earn it.

Let's make intel valuable.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#115 - 2012-10-15 14:47:56 UTC
Imagine cloaked ships not showing up in local, at least not in a way that was useful as intel.

Imagine any value intel had required it to be gained by your ship sensors.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#116 - 2012-10-15 16:20:59 UTC
YES!

(bump)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#117 - 2012-10-18 20:28:34 UTC
Mary Annabelle wrote:
YES!

(bump)

More bumps! I love these things!

...reaches for pancake bump syrup....

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Devon Krah'tor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2012-10-24 16:13:59 UTC
+1
Immersive intel gathering/ships sensors
vs
CHATBOX

do it ccp
Greater.Insight.Skill.Knowledge
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#119 - 2012-10-24 20:08:44 UTC
Devon Krah'tor wrote:
+1
Immersive intel gathering/ships sensors
vs
CHATBOX

do it ccp

It is good to know the ideas have some traction!

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Bender 01000010
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#120 - 2012-10-25 08:37:15 UTC
+1