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'bubble' distance semantics (the '100km' rule)
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Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2011-10-18 03:40:39 UTC
I know this is a bit of a noobish question, but I'm wanting to make sure my understanding of bubble dynamics is spot-on. The main thing I want to confirm relates to that '100km'.

It is my understanding that - If I warp to a location (or to within-100km-of that location) and there is a bubble, in line with my warp but no more than 100km behind my destination then I will be sucked beyond my destination to the edge of that bubble.

My questions here is:
1. **What** is within 100km of my destination? Is it the disruptor item that has been anchored, or is it the nearest edge of the bubble in line with my warp vector? Given the size of the large T2 bubble, these two values can be pretty different.



I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#2 - 2011-10-18 09:20:05 UTC
I'm fairly sure there is no 100km rule and all that matters is if you are warping to the same grid as the bubble and your warp line intersects that bubble it will suck you in.

The bubble could be 10,000 KM away if the grid has been stretched and still pull you.

People often aim for 100KM though as it means you are unable to warp back to the gate.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2011-10-18 09:48:27 UTC
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
I'm fairly sure there is no 100km rule and all that matters is if you are warping to the same grid as the bubble and your warp line intersects that bubble it will suck you in.

The bubble could be 10,000 KM away if the grid has been stretched and still pull you.

People often aim for 100KM though as it means you are unable to warp back to the gate.


there is a 100km rule for anchored bubbles, dic and hic bubbles stretch grid wide
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2011-10-18 09:49:50 UTC
The distance limit as to how far a bubble can snag you up is nebulous. I've seen several anchored at silly distances like 800kms away and catching people all the time. Yet, I've anchored several in a daisy chain of sorts and the last ones would not catch anything. People would land near the middle of the chain.

It knows what you think.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2011-10-18 09:55:37 UTC
If you plan to anchor a bubble on a gate, make sure it's around 100km. If you put it to far away (like 160km), they can just instantly warp to the gate if they have a fast ship/pod.
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#6 - 2011-10-18 14:55:49 UTC
I've seen anchored bubbles pull over 100k so I'm pretty sure gridwide for all bubbles is the right answer.
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2011-10-18 20:57:32 UTC
Thanks. That is all very interesting, and a bit of a departure from my understanding. Brilliant :-)

I appreciate the gridfu aspects of what you're saying, and hadn't really thought of it that way.

The "100km is good because it's too close to disengage and warp-to-gate from" argument is also a very good one ... that I have been confronted with (as a sucked / caught / dragged intended victim) many times. Again I'd never looked at it that way, thinking that 100km was some sort of game dynamics 'rule'.

So am I right then, in summarising / paraphrasing this feedback, that:
1. A bubble on grid with your intended warp-in target (whether you're warping to the target itself or to an ongrid spot a given distance [e.g. 100km from] from the target) will drag you beyond your planned target to the nearest edge of the bubble if the bubble is inline with your warp path?
2. For the purposes of a bubble (be it anchored, probe based, or HICtor generated) the dimensions of the grid around an object is subject to the same 'gridfu' type variations as it is for other purposes?
3. 100km is used more because it maximises the survival difficulty for the intended victim ... in that you cannot simply exit the bubble at the nearest edge and warp back to your intended target?

Thanks again, that's very useful advice.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#8 - 2011-10-18 22:19:51 UTC
AFAIK, all of the above is correct. Keep in mind that in addition to dragging you past the planned target you could be dragged out of warp before your planned target, depending on bubble placement.

And yeah, for all grid purposes the grid is the grid. If the bubble is on grid, it can pull you, so if you've messed with the grid via grid-fu this certainly applies to bubbles.
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2011-10-18 22:35:36 UTC
Tamiya Sarossa wrote:
Keep in mind that in addition to dragging you past the planned target you could be dragged out of warp before your planned target, depending on bubble placement.


Yes, thanks. Altho it's far more common to see bubbles 'behind' the destination dragging you beyond your intended warp point. The main 'catch' bubbles i see partly surround the warp destination point, usually a gate ... altho I've seen some at pretty remote locations that i assume to be between celestials.

Is it true, then, that those sorts of 'catch' bubbles, between you and your intended warp-destination, do not need to be on-grid with your destination. They could be half way between the two and still interrupt your planned warp, as long as it intersects your warp line?



I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2011-10-19 15:32:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Sphit Ker
Substantia Nigra wrote:
Tamiya Sarossa wrote:
Keep in mind that in addition to dragging you past the planned target you could be dragged out of warp before your planned target, depending on bubble placement.


Yes, thanks. Altho it's far more common to see bubbles 'behind' the destination dragging you beyond your intended warp point. The main 'catch' bubbles i see partly surround the warp destination point, usually a gate ... altho I've seen some at pretty remote locations that i assume to be between celestials.

Is it true, then, that those sorts of 'catch' bubbles, between you and your intended warp-destination, do not need to be on-grid with your destination. They could be half way between the two and still interrupt your planned warp, as long as it intersects your warp line?






Nay. I've never been pulled by off-grid bubbles ever. If this can happen at all then I am either way lucky to never have seen that or there's some funky **** going on.

it's got to be on-grid for sure.

It knows what you think.
Kulsto Ribro
Deep Space Legacy
#11 - 2011-10-20 12:37:21 UTC
Sphit Ker wrote:

Nay. I've never been pulled by off-grid bubbles ever. If this can happen at all then I am either way lucky to never have seen that or there's some funky **** going on.

it's got to be on-grid for sure.


So if I make a safe spot between two gates and place a bubble here, ships won't be stopped on the way ?
I thought this happened to me once, but I was podded so fast I may have not realized where I was precisely.
Tamiya Sarossa
Resistance is Character Forming
#12 - 2011-10-20 21:05:57 UTC
Kulsto Ribro wrote:

So if I make a safe spot between two gates and place a bubble here, ships won't be stopped on the way ?
I thought this happened to me once, but I was podded so fast I may have not realized where I was precisely.


Bubbles only, only ever work on grid. That's why having off-grids near gates as well as some on-grid perches is always a good plan if you want to check for heavy bubble coverage.
Algathas
Swamp Panthers
SONS of BANE
#13 - 2011-10-20 22:12:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Algathas
Tamiya Sarossa wrote:
Kulsto Ribro wrote:

So if I make a safe spot between two gates and place a bubble here, ships won't be stopped on the way ?
I thought this happened to me once, but I was podded so fast I may have not realized where I was precisely.


Bubbles only, only ever work on grid. That's why having off-grids near gates as well as some on-grid perches is always a good plan if you want to check for heavy bubble coverage.


Right, they only work on the grid that the destination of your warp is in and if the path of your warp (extended to infinity) intersects the bubble.

For example:

If you are on grid with a bubble, you can warp through the bubble to a remote off grid celestial if you are not in the bubble. This is because the destination is not on grid with the bubble.

If you land on a grid with a bubble but at a safe not aligned in the same way as the bubble, you will not be pulled in. This is because the destination is such that the line of your path does not intersect the bubble.
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2011-10-20 22:29:57 UTC
Algathas wrote:
If you are on grid with a bubble, you can warp through the bubble to a remote off grid celestial if you are not in the bubble. This is because the destination is not on grid with the bubble.


Thanks everyone. I am learning a lot from this thread ... way more than I expected.

This is a very useful snippet of knowledge for me. I've been grappling recently with a bundle of station-undock bubbles, and had incorrectly assumed that I could not warp thru them to my exit instawarp beyond. About half the station undock bubbles I'm seeing actually engulf the undock zone and the rest have a clear area, a km or two, between the initial undock and the edge of the bubble.

If I'm interpreting Algathas' advice correctly: If I'm not actually in the bubble then I can safely warp thru the bubble to my undock instawarp BM, providing that the BM location is offgrid from the station.
The flipside is that I will not be able to warp if I am actually in the bubble or if the instawarp is ongrid.

I'd been using T3 when I needed to get into those stations but it now seems that I will be fine for around half in other ships. Excellent!

It also looks like I'm going to be building longer-distance instawarps that are less likely to be 'dragged' ongrid by gridfu - around 400km may not provide enough buffer for that. Thanks.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
xenodia
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2011-11-04 17:32:02 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
I'm fairly sure there is no 100km rule and all that matters is if you are warping to the same grid as the bubble and your warp line intersects that bubble it will suck you in.

The bubble could be 10,000 KM away if the grid has been stretched and still pull you.

People often aim for 100KM though as it means you are unable to warp back to the gate.


there is a 100km rule for anchored bubbles, dic and hic bubbles stretch grid wide



not positive about an anchored drag bubble, but a "stop bubble" definately works well over 100k off. Ive anchored bubbles on grid with an enemy POS in a WH before, but outside gun activation range (so like over 300k), then waited there and ganked the target when they go to warp back to their POS.
Borun Tal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2011-11-04 18:07:57 UTC
Sphit Ker wrote:
The distance limit as to how far a bubble can snag you up is nebulous. I've seen several anchored at silly distances like 800kms away and catching people all the time. Yet, I've anchored several in a daisy chain of sorts and the last ones would not catch anything. People would land near the middle of the chain.


So that was YOU you bastage!!! P