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ORE super hauler
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Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#21 - 2012-10-15 06:24:07 UTC
"Medium" or in the middle sized haulers have a ton of threads and requests out for them. I personally agree with it.

There is too large of a gap between the indies and the freighters atm, and the Orca takes entirely too much training and has too many extra bonuses for a person that may not even be a miner.

I recall seeing somewhere one of the Devs saying they are aware of the request, liked the idea personally, but would not commit to weather or not it would wind up on the future drawing board.

We can always hope,

~Z

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#22 - 2012-10-15 15:29:05 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
this bit in bold is the level required for T2 freighters, so i doubt it. It would more than likely require an overhaul as u suggest. chances of that happening in the near future are next to none.

but the orca is only 50 days away :P


I already have an alt that can fly an orca. I saw how things were and chose the best solution I had available. That doesn't mean that I should now stop asking for a larger industrial (or smaller freighter) just because I have the option of using an Orca.


but really, freighters are quick enough to train into. so u dnt REALLY need an inbetweener.
i think the OP was looking for a hauler with fitting options and that was faster, so i pointed towards the orca.

asking ccp to make the perfect hauler for u and then make it easy to skill into sounds counter intuitive to the risk/work vs reward ideology of eve. i'd say it will unlikely be implemented as the OP and Paik would like.

having to chose between skilling harder into the orca or hauling slower in a freighter sounds about right to me.

if they were to make a T2 orca for pure hauling as someone suggested it would likely need the Orca skills maxed, plus other skills for an even longer training time. the idea becomes quite out of proportion when trying to balance training time and haulage vs that of carriers and freighters.

btw, theres a thread on adding fitting options to freighters somewhere. some ppl here may want to look in on that and add their thoughts.

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Doddy
Excidium.
#23 - 2012-10-15 16:06:38 UTC
Well the way i see it the future of haulers looks something like this.

CCP will eventually get to the haulers in tiericide/rebalancing and when they do most of this stuff will be covered. No doubt the will bring in more haulers so all empires have at least 3, maybe 5, and these will now vary by role like the barges rather than tiering (so itty 1 will no longer be smallest hold, slowest and least tank. Then the t2 haulers will be balanced round that, with blockade runners staying much the same but DSTs getting a bigger tank and a t2 large capacity hauler introduced. Finally ccp gives in to the tears and introduces an armoured freighter which is basically a t2 heavy tank freighter with the same sort of cargo hold (and cost) as a jump frighter. If they were ballsy enough they would nerf JF ehp at the same time.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#24 - 2012-10-15 18:32:36 UTC
+1 for mini-freighter

orca takes ages to train for.
freighters are stupid costly just for being used to move things.

i for one feel a "mini-freighter" at 1/3 the max capacity of the racial ship they are of and 1/3 the cost that way they could be a good viable option and be something for indy pilots to work towards if they are into transport.
Indy->mini freighter->freighter

and mini freighter would need to be 1/2 the cost of a orca (roughly 500m iirc) to be a step up form indy, and a step down from freighter and that cost differance would be the differance of just hauling (mini) vs being able to fleet boost and all the other good stuf orca can do.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#25 - 2012-10-15 20:29:57 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
+1 for mini-freighter

orca takes ages to train for.
freighters are stupid costly just for being used to move things.

i for one feel a "mini-freighter" at 1/3 the max capacity of the racial ship they are of and 1/3 the cost that way they could be a good viable option and be something for indy pilots to work towards if they are into transport.
Indy->mini freighter->freighter

and mini freighter would need to be 1/2 the cost of a orca (roughly 500m iirc) to be a step up form indy, and a step down from freighter and that cost differance would be the differance of just hauling (mini) vs being able to fleet boost and all the other good stuf orca can do.


perhaps its at freighter scale where a tier system might still work. giving the mini freighter the same or similar skill requirements of the typical freighter, just at a fraction of the cost.

but it probably shouldn't get fitting options unless the larger freighters do as well.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Infinite Force
#26 - 2012-10-15 21:12:25 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
but really, freighters are quick enough to train into. so u dnt REALLY need an inbetweener.
i think the OP was looking for a hauler with fitting options and that was faster, so i pointed towards the orca.

asking ccp to make the perfect hauler for u and then make it easy to skill into sounds counter intuitive to the risk/work vs reward ideology of eve. i'd say it will unlikely be implemented as the OP and Paik would like.

having to chose between skilling harder into the orca or hauling slower in a freighter sounds about right to me.

if they were to make a T2 orca for pure hauling as someone suggested it would likely need the Orca skills maxed, plus other skills for an even longer training time. the idea becomes quite out of proportion when trying to balance training time and haulage vs that of carriers and freighters.

btw, theres a thread on adding fitting options to freighters somewhere. some ppl here may want to look in on that and add their thoughts.

" but really, battleships are quick enough to train into [from frigates]. so u dnt REALLY need an inbetweener [destroyers, cruisers, bc's]."

There, I fixed that for ya.

Some people should actually put _thought_ into their statements before posting them.

+10M to a Mini-freighter.

Just because you don't want to fly one doesn't mean someone else doesn't.

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Arcosian
Arcosian Heavy Industries Corp Holding
#27 - 2012-10-15 22:43:01 UTC
I don't think a new ORE super hauler would help any. Reason being, freighters really don't take that long to train for and the only downside is they are really expensive but that seems to be more supply/demand coupled with a 2 week buildtime than anything else. Plus goons regularly ganking them sure isn't helping drive the price down any so it seems like "economy 101" is working as intended. And an ORE hauler would be more focused on transporting large amounts of ore/minerals which freighters can already do very well.

As for the orca its a good "midsize" hauler but it takes longer to train for. This balances out with the fact that you can fit a huge ehp tank on it but sacrifice cargospace. You can haul someting like 95km3 in the cargohold and 40km3 in the corporate hangar for 135k m3 total with isn't that bad. It has a 400km3 ship maintainance array and a 50km3 ore hold. And gives mining bonuses.

The biggest bonus of the orca is the corporate hangar as it is unscannable and won't drop anything when ganked. This means gankers have no reason to kill them so you can literally fill it with 100+bil isk and transport it across New Eden with virtually no risk what so ever.

I think if they just removed the orca's ore bay and added it to the carghold capacity that would fix alot of issues giving it almost 200km3 total capacity. Let's face it how many people haul unrefined ore in the ore bay outside of mining ops, where you could just as easily dump ore to the cargohold.Ugh Yep makes no sense to have a dedicated ore bay on the orca so hopefully that will get fixed when CCP gets to rebalancing caps.

Nevertheless, lots of people have been wanting a 250-400km3 mini freighter that's cheap and easy to skill for. I really don't see how CCP could implement this without drastically changing the skill requirements for freighters and make it take months just to get in one. We also need to define why we need something that can haul 250-400km3 when we have 800k-1M m3 freighters. What are you guys hauling that requires a mini freighter and why would one need a cheap T1 ship in the 150k m3 range where it could just be ganked with that much more ISK in the cargohold?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#28 - 2012-10-15 22:45:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Infinite Force wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
but really, freighters are quick enough to train into. so u dnt REALLY need an inbetweener.
i think the OP was looking for a hauler with fitting options and that was faster, so i pointed towards the orca.

asking ccp to make the perfect hauler for u and then make it easy to skill into sounds counter intuitive to the risk/work vs reward ideology of eve. i'd say it will unlikely be implemented as the OP and Paik would like.

having to chose between skilling harder into the orca or hauling slower in a freighter sounds about right to me.

if they were to make a T2 orca for pure hauling as someone suggested it would likely need the Orca skills maxed, plus other skills for an even longer training time. the idea becomes quite out of proportion when trying to balance training time and haulage vs that of carriers and freighters.

btw, theres a thread on adding fitting options to freighters somewhere. some ppl here may want to look in on that and add their thoughts.

" but really, battleships are quick enough to train into [from frigates]. so u dnt REALLY need an inbetweener [destroyers, cruisers, bc's]."

There, I fixed that for ya.

Some people should actually put _thought_ into their statements before posting them.

+10M to a Mini-freighter.

Just because you don't want to fly one doesn't mean someone else doesn't.


ha what?!

frig to BS has alot more to take into account than size, speed and cost. [edit - also the training difference once weapons, tank and support skills are considered is far longer than that between indies and freighters]

previously what ive read in this forum are ppl who want; a large size, fitting options, speed and tank. basically an all in one 'super hauler' (like the title) like the orca, but they dnt want to have to train the skill points or spend the money to get it. sorry, but its not gonna happen.

latter ideas where there is just a mini freighter (a cheap freighter with more speed and less hold) are perfectly fine ideas and a training time around other freighters or just after indies would also be perfectly fine.

if anyone needs to put more (read any) thought into their posts its u, and perhaps u need to read more, because u've picked up the wrong perception of my stand point completely and that was one crappy post

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#29 - 2012-10-15 23:34:12 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:
Keeping the real mini-freighter discussion towards the top.


yup, close this and move over

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Luc Chastot
#30 - 2012-10-16 03:12:06 UTC
To be honest, the real problem here is that the Iteron V is terrible for a ship that needs almost as much training as a freighter.

Also, I said I'm no industrialist, so I don't really care if CCP introduces such a ship or not, I just wanted to give some thought to this idea without disrupting the balance of the current haulers. 10 days of training for a ship that hauls more than a T1 racial hauler and yet considerably less than a freighter, while also not getting you any closer to one, sounds pretty balanced to me; however, I do realize I'm not CCP, which some people here don't seem to do.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#31 - 2012-10-16 04:36:10 UTC
Luc Chastot wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Why would you want to move such quantities of stuff in such a MASSIVE gank magnet?


People fly freighters.

On another note, to those pointing the Orca as a hauler, the problem with it is the long training and the fact it is expensive. Also, why would you train for an Orca if all you want is to move large quantities of stuff, but still don't need a freighter?


Freighters can't be ganked by two catalysts.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#32 - 2012-10-16 15:18:21 UTC
Luc Chastot wrote:
To be honest, the real problem here is that the Iteron V is terrible for a ship that needs almost as much training as a freighter.

Also, I said I'm no industrialist, so I don't really care if CCP introduces such a ship or not, I just wanted to give some thought to this idea without disrupting the balance of the current haulers. 10 days of training for a ship that hauls more than a T1 racial hauler and yet considerably less than a freighter, while also not getting you any closer to one, sounds pretty balanced to me; however, I do realize I'm not CCP, which some people here don't seem to do.


10 days of training is what i think would disrupt the balance, and/or having fitting options on something that can haul 150km3 is also a very powerful hauler. somewhere u've got to compromise, be it training time, fitting or capacity.

it may not be that the itty V is weak for its training time but more that freighters are powerful for theirs. perhaps, as someone suggested, once tiericide reaches haulers the itty V (or whatever they call the larger hauler) will be just as easy to skill into as the others and will increase the gap between freighters and indies. they'll probably go for one that tanks for afk hauling, one that has speed, agility and warp str for dangerous territory, and one with massive capacity, but even then i doubt the upper limit could go beyond 70km3.

i doubt that indies will get a cargo capacity anywhere near 150km3. its so large that it belongs in freighter territory, where there are no fittings, but large tanks and capacity. and a mini freighter that doesnt require a near 2bil payout to use might be nice.

TL:DR
i think what ur asking for is basically an Orca thats easy to get into. its a bit OP and u need to compromise somewhere. an alternative is a mini-freighter with the same skill times as other freighters

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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