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Easy fix to afk cloakers: Cumulative Cap Upkeep

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Baroness Vulna
Armada vi Vulnezia
#1 - 2012-10-14 08:04:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Baroness Vulna
Lets face it, a cloaking device would likely be such a massive system to upkeep, energy would eventually run out right?

Many are saying afk cloakers ruin the premise of the game, take advantage of current game mechanics etc etc. People on all sides of the fence. One thing everyone can agree on is afk cloaking is no fun, its just troublesome or manipulative.

WAnt to fix it without breaking other stuff?

Make cloaking devices have a cumulative upkeep of energy, lets say after 15min cloaked, the cloak system starts to overheat and require more cap...20min and its really heating up and sucking more cap...30min and the thing just overheats or sucks all your cap and shuts down....so if you are afk then you are fair game for your enemy to hunt you and kill you. The AFk'r or pilot of the cloaky ship would have to turn off the system then turn it back on to reset it.

Or give us depth charging destroyers to hunt and kill those pesky cloakers :)

brought to you by -Barony of Vulnezia MMO micro nation- www.vulnezia.com Be a part of the world's first MMO Micro Nation
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#2 - 2012-10-14 08:41:40 UTC
Wow, it must have been almost 2 days since the last time I saw this thread...

Baroness Vulna wrote:
Lets face it, a cloaking device would likely be such a massive system to upkeep, energy would eventually run out right?


Why? EVE is basically space magic for a lot of things. Why not this too? You say a cloak uses heaps of power, I say it uses no power and runs on smoke and mirrors. Now what?

Baroness Vulna wrote:
Many are saying afk cloakers ruin the premise of the game, take advantage of current game mechanics etc etc. People on all sides of the fence. One thing everyone can agree on is afk cloaking is no fun, its just troublesome or manipulative.

I disagree. AFK cloakers are not an issue.

Baroness Vulna wrote:
Want to fix it without breaking other stuff?

"fix" implies that something is broken. There is no problem here, and AFK cloaker cannot kill you, because he is AFK. If it still bothers you, turn local off.

Baroness Vulna wrote:
Make cloaking devices have a cumulative upkeep of energy, lets say after 15min cloaked, the cloak system starts to overheat and require more cap...20min and its really heating up and sucking more cap...30min and the thing just overheats or sucks all your cap and shuts down....so if you are afk then you are fair game for your enemy to hunt you and kill you. The AFk'r or pilot of the cloaky ship would have to turn off the system then turn it back on to reset it.


You're trying to fix a problem of your own making. Stop worrying about someone who isn't at their keyboard.

Baroness Vulna wrote:
Or give us depth charging destroyers to hunt and kill those pesky cloakers :)


I do not disagree with this. I just don't think its going to be very effective :P
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#3 - 2012-10-14 11:42:19 UTC
Sure. And to fix the problem of afk-station sitting, have stations eject everyone inside after you have been in station for more than 30 minutes.
Baroness Vulna
Armada vi Vulnezia
#4 - 2012-10-14 15:36:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Baroness Vulna
Most people I talk to agree that cloaking in the game is not balanced. It could use a few good ideas to make it more fun too such as my depth charge destroyer idea.

Fine stay cloaked, go afk but it would be fun if your enemy could send a fleet of destroyers to hunt you down, tossing out depth charges that act like scanner probes and methodically destroyers uncloak you and move in for the kill :) like submarine warfare.

that could be fun for the cloakers too, keeping them on the move...oh but if you are afk cloaking so sorry..bye bye

brought to you by -Barony of Vulnezia MMO micro nation- www.vulnezia.com Be a part of the world's first MMO Micro Nation
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-10-14 15:42:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Astroniomix
Baroness Vulna wrote:
Most people I talk to agree that cloaking in the game is not balanced. It could use a few good ideas to make it more fun too such as my depth charge destroyer idea.

Fine stay cloaked, go afk but it would be fun if your enemy could send a fleet of destroyers to hunt you down, tossing out depth charges that act like scanner probes and methodically destroyers uncloak you and move in for the kill :) like submarine warfare.

that could be fun for the cloakers too, keeping them on the move...oh but if you are afk cloaking so sorry..bye bye

You have now broken cloaking and utterly RUINED black ops. Because of the everpresent free instant 100% accurate (unless there is a covert cyno up) intel provided via local. People NEED a way to try and counter it. They do this by remaining logged on in one system for an extended period of time in order to devalue local. ("I know he is here but is he awake?")

And then there are black ops which tend to need to actually sit around in space not moving (because they CANT) for extended periods of time JUST TO DO THEIR JOB.
Baroness Vulna
Armada vi Vulnezia
#6 - 2012-10-14 17:31:21 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Baroness Vulna wrote:
Most people I talk to agree that cloaking in the game is not balanced. It could use a few good ideas to make it more fun too such as my depth charge destroyer idea.

Fine stay cloaked, go afk but it would be fun if your enemy could send a fleet of destroyers to hunt you down, tossing out depth charges that act like scanner probes and methodically destroyers uncloak you and move in for the kill :) like submarine warfare.

that could be fun for the cloakers too, keeping them on the move...oh but if you are afk cloaking so sorry..bye bye

You have now broken cloaking and utterly RUINED black ops. Because of the everpresent free instant 100% accurate (unless there is a covert cyno up) intel provided via local. People NEED a way to try and counter it. They do this by remaining logged on in one system for an extended period of time in order to devalue local. ("I know he is here but is he awake?")

And then there are black ops which tend to need to actually sit around in space not moving (because they CANT) for extended periods of time JUST TO DO THEIR JOB.



Well of course, that is the point the cloakers want to devalue an enemy system, or they want their black ops work to be so carefree and easy....until depth charging, sonar pinging destroyers come after them...then suddenly their 'happy time' is over.

The Germans in ww1 and ww2 loved their submarines when few could challenge them, but just like you i am sure they did their share of complaining when life got harder in combat.

cloaking is so simple and effective in this game, it is the next thing that needs a challenge or a nerf simple as that.

brought to you by -Barony of Vulnezia MMO micro nation- www.vulnezia.com Be a part of the world's first MMO Micro Nation
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-10-14 18:14:23 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Wow, it must have been almost 2 days since the last time I saw this thread...

Baroness Vulna wrote:
Lets face it, a cloaking device would likely be such a massive system to upkeep, energy would eventually run out right?


Why? EVE is basically space magic for a lot of things. Why not this too? You say a cloak uses heaps of power, I say it uses no power and runs on smoke and mirrors. Now what?


I say if it uses lots of power, then its not a very good cloaking device, either it doesn't work, or it destroys the ship.

While you could in theory divert light around your ship... there's this little thing called black body radiation, the more power something uses, the more heat it generates, the more infrared radiation it emits... and it glows like a torch against the backdrop of space when imaged in infrared.
Option B is that it somehow prevents that IR radiation from escaping, in which case the ship gets hotter and hotter, and the whole thing melts (and although this game has plenty of space magic, to say that they've found a way to stop black body radiation requires even more space magic)

Option C is that the cloaked ship is running at extremely low power levels, and thus doesn't generate much heat at all.

A cloaking device, by necessity, must operate at low power levels, the entire cloaked object must - which fits with not using any modules while cloaked - I would be infavor of disabling cap and shield regen while cloaked, but this wouldn't stop AFK cloaking
Furry Commander
Furry Armada
#8 - 2012-10-14 18:24:05 UTC
i'm a carebear and i say cloaking is fine, nerf local and give us better tools to see if we are being hunted actively. it would be way more fun. ratting and mining would be more fun if it felt more like stealing
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#9 - 2012-10-14 18:28:08 UTC
Hi,

If you've got an opinion to weigh in then please do it constructively, resorting to profanity is not acceptable.

Thanks and fly safe!

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#10 - 2012-10-14 21:21:31 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Copy pasting the usual arguments and counter arguments.

Cloaking ships have no counter.
Yes they do. It's the ships themselves. All of the cloaking capable ships are extremely weak in direct combat and, as a result, have a narrow band of targets they can engage and survive against.

PvE ships stand no chance against a PvP ship... even if it's a Stealth Bomber!
Soooooo... don't min/max your fit? Throw on some point defense like a Heavy Energy Neutralizer... a flight of Warrior IIs... maybe equip some buffer and more even-ish resistances so there is time for someone to come to your aid?
Ooooooo... here's a novel idea; you see that rookie in your alliance who doesn't know what he/she is doing? Tell him/her to get into a combat frigate and fly with you.
Even though he/she is a total newb and doesn't know what he/she is doing, the Stealth Bomber pilot doesn't know that and will ignore you in favor of less potentially "risky" prey.

It isn't fair that someone can sit in our system all day and we can't do anything about it.
It isn't fair that local will immediately tell you when a non-friendly enters system so you can warp away to safety. AFK cloaking is a symptom of Local's "free intel."
When local is nerfed I will agree than cloaking needs a nerf.

It isn't fair that someone can just point you and then open up a cyno to hotdrop you!
Okay...
1. Hotdropping is not something specific to cloaking ships. I can fit a nano'ed interceptor and rush into your system to do the same thing. Hell... I can even "AFK" in your system in THAT ship by flying into deep space with a perma running MWD.
2. It takes about 10 seconds for a recon to lock you up (because they have a targeting delay after decloaking). Only the Stealth Bomber can target right away... and its tank is fairly non-existent. Tell your frigate buddy (that is tagging along with you) to "take care of him."
Wait... you say you have no "frigate buddy?" Guess you shouldn't have been so greedy.

I will say this though... if you addressed cynos and hotdrops as a separate issue then you might be better received.

It isn't fair that I can't fly my billion ISK pimpmobile carrier/battleship because the risk of being engaged by someone who may or may not be on is too great.
Suck it up nancy.
You don't want to risk so much ISK? Fly something that's cheaper. Oh... you don't want to reduce your ISK per hour? Well... that's the trade-off. You risk less ISK but you won't make the "optimal" amounts you were before. At least you are still earning ISK, right?


edit: can't forget my ending lines.

An "AFK cloaker" is ONE person... in ONE ship... in a system where a resident has many places to run and hide in... where said resident's corpmates and alliancemates also live in... with all their ships... and all their equipment... which has the capability to deal serious damage to another thousand man alliance... and has yet been "shut down" by ONE person?

I don't even think I can begin to articulate how cowardly that sounds. A hauler in high-sec seems to have bigger gonads than the people who whine about "AFK cloakers." How is that possible you ask? Well... the hauler does his/her trade in systems where local is filled with an innumerable amount of strangers and any one of them can be a potential ganker.

How did you Veterans start?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#11 - 2012-10-15 00:24:36 UTC
there are countless threads on this. u could have saved urself the embarrassment by searching the topic first

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#12 - 2012-10-15 02:51:43 UTC
That destroyer idea doesn't sound too bad if done correctly.

A T2 ship that is the only ship that can equip and use covert probes. It works the exact same way, but allows a person to eventually narrow in on the cloaked ship.

They then equip a special kind of smartbomb that instead of doing damage, simply deactivates the cloak. Provided they can fly around and get the cloaked ship within range of the pulse.

Range and cycle time on the pulse module to be determined by those who know best.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#13 - 2012-10-15 06:16:15 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Copy pasting the usual arguments and counter arguments.

Cloaking ships have no counter.
Yes they do. It's the ships themselves. All of the cloaking capable ships are extremely weak in direct combat and, as a result, have a narrow band of targets they can engage and survive against.

PvE ships stand no chance against a PvP ship... even if it's a Stealth Bomber!
Soooooo... don't min/max your fit? Throw on some point defense like a Heavy Energy Neutralizer... a flight of Warrior IIs... maybe equip some buffer and more even-ish resistances so there is time for someone to come to your aid?
Ooooooo... here's a novel idea; you see that rookie in your alliance who doesn't know what he/she is doing? Tell him/her to get into a combat frigate and fly with you.
Even though he/she is a total newb and doesn't know what he/she is doing, the Stealth Bomber pilot doesn't know that and will ignore you in favor of less potentially "risky" prey.

It isn't fair that someone can sit in our system all day and we can't do anything about it.
It isn't fair that local will immediately tell you when a non-friendly enters system so you can warp away to safety. AFK cloaking is a symptom of Local's "free intel."
When local is nerfed I will agree than cloaking needs a nerf.

It isn't fair that someone can just point you and then open up a cyno to hotdrop you!
Okay...
1. Hotdropping is not something specific to cloaking ships. I can fit a nano'ed interceptor and rush into your system to do the same thing. Hell... I can even "AFK" in your system in THAT ship by flying into deep space with a perma running MWD.
2. It takes about 10 seconds for a recon to lock you up (because they have a targeting delay after decloaking). Only the Stealth Bomber can target right away... and its tank is fairly non-existent. Tell your frigate buddy (that is tagging along with you) to "take care of him."
Wait... you say you have no "frigate buddy?" Guess you shouldn't have been so greedy.

I will say this though... if you addressed cynos and hotdrops as a separate issue then you might be better received.

It isn't fair that I can't fly my billion ISK pimpmobile carrier/battleship because the risk of being engaged by someone who may or may not be on is too great.
Suck it up nancy.
You don't want to risk so much ISK? Fly something that's cheaper. Oh... you don't want to reduce your ISK per hour? Well... that's the trade-off. You risk less ISK but you won't make the "optimal" amounts you were before. At least you are still earning ISK, right?


edit: can't forget my ending lines.

An "AFK cloaker" is ONE person... in ONE ship... in a system where a resident has many places to run and hide in... where said resident's corpmates and alliancemates also live in... with all their ships... and all their equipment... which has the capability to deal serious damage to another thousand man alliance... and has yet been "shut down" by ONE MAN?

I don't even think I can begin to articulate how cowardly that sounds. A hauler high-sec seems to have bigger gonads than the people who whine about "AFK cloakers." How is that possible you ask? Well... the hauler does his trade in systems where local is filled with an innumerable amount of strangers and any one of them could be a potential ganker.



QFT and because I'm feeling too lazy to respond with a bunch of typing of my own atm. ;)

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-10-15 07:23:05 UTC
An AFK pilot has never blown up a ship or actively stopped people from playing.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-10-15 08:23:38 UTC
Baroness Vulna wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Baroness Vulna wrote:
Most people I talk to agree that cloaking in the game is not balanced. It could use a few good ideas to make it more fun too such as my depth charge destroyer idea.

Fine stay cloaked, go afk but it would be fun if your enemy could send a fleet of destroyers to hunt you down, tossing out depth charges that act like scanner probes and methodically destroyers uncloak you and move in for the kill :) like submarine warfare.

that could be fun for the cloakers too, keeping them on the move...oh but if you are afk cloaking so sorry..bye bye

You have now broken cloaking and utterly RUINED black ops. Because of the everpresent free instant 100% accurate (unless there is a covert cyno up) intel provided via local. People NEED a way to try and counter it. They do this by remaining logged on in one system for an extended period of time in order to devalue local. ("I know he is here but is he awake?")

And then there are black ops which tend to need to actually sit around in space not moving (because they CANT) for extended periods of time JUST TO DO THEIR JOB.



Well of course, that is the point the cloakers want to devalue an enemy system, or they want their black ops work to be so carefree and easy....until depth charging, sonar pinging destroyers come after them...then suddenly their 'happy time' is over.

The Germans in ww1 and ww2 loved their submarines when few could challenge them, but just like you i am sure they did their share of complaining when life got harder in combat.

cloaking is so simple and effective in this game, it is the next thing that needs a challenge or a nerf simple as that.
You have no idea how black ops battleships work do you?
Me ofcourse
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2012-10-15 08:31:41 UTC
here's an idea, everyone who has ever cloaked in game (well pretty much all of us) has noticed how we can see the light bent around the outline of our ship,
why not make that outline a little more obvious, that way if your looking out in the direction you have a chance of seeing the cloaked ship and then you can approach it and decloak it (like you normally do) it will remove a little guess work and make afk cloaker's in open space easier to spot to be decloaked,

and if their in a safe spot, make them scannable but till its a difficulty of scanning a pod down or harder
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#17 - 2012-10-15 08:34:56 UTC
afk cloaking is working fine and need no nerf.
Doddy
Excidium.
#18 - 2012-10-15 08:56:33 UTC
Baroness Vulna wrote:
Most people I talk to agree that cloaking in the game is not balanced. It could use a few good ideas to make it more fun too such as my depth charge destroyer idea.

Fine stay cloaked, go afk but it would be fun if your enemy could send a fleet of destroyers to hunt you down, tossing out depth charges that act like scanner probes and methodically destroyers uncloak you and move in for the kill :) like submarine warfare.

that could be fun for the cloakers too, keeping them on the move...oh but if you are afk cloaking so sorry..bye bye


No one has come up with an idea that doesn't harm non afk cloakers who are using cloaks to scout or to sneak up and attack people. That includes your depth charge idea, cumulative cap ideas, decloak pulses et all.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#19 - 2012-10-15 09:11:55 UTC
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Hi,

If you've got an opinion to weigh in then please do it constructively, resorting to profanity is not acceptable.

Thanks and fly safe!


Thats really just taking all the fun out of it =<

Whats the point of a ranting angry tirade of condescending nonsense without some profanity to spice it up =<




Also the title suggests AFK cloaking needs to be fixed..

It doesn't.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#20 - 2012-10-15 14:20:02 UTC
Angeal MacNova wrote:
That destroyer idea doesn't sound too bad if done correctly.

A T2 ship that is the only ship that can equip and use covert probes. It works the exact same way, but allows a person to eventually narrow in on the cloaked ship.

They then equip a special kind of smartbomb that instead of doing damage, simply deactivates the cloak. Provided they can fly around and get the cloaked ship within range of the pulse.

Range and cycle time on the pulse module to be determined by those who know best.



[Sarcasm] Yeah, that sounds REEEEALY GREAT. [/Sarcasm]

So one ping of your Covert Probes and you instantly know how many people are cloaked up in your Wormhole.....

Well done, you Just broke Wormholes!

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
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