These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

First post First post First post
Author
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#4641 - 2012-10-14 09:56:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Lipbite
Can I get 5mill missile skillpoints refund on my missile boat alt? Now she is useless as DPS in incursions, after Fury cruises changes she will be completely useless as sniper as well. 110km paper range for missiles isn't enough to reach NPCs orbiting at 100-120km + DPS loss (due to flight time of missiles) is tremendous already.
Noslen Nosilla
Federal Logistics Initiative Conglomerate
United Interests
#4642 - 2012-10-14 10:04:14 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
:Edit: I've updated this post with the 2.0 versions of this proposal. Changes are underlined and can be found described in this post. Some big sets of responses to questions about the original proposal can be found here and here.:

Google doc with numbers for the affected missiles.

Hello everyone! we've got another F&I balance thread for you all, covering tentative plans for missiles in the Winter expansion plus a hurricane fittings nerf that doesn't really need it's own thread.

I'd like to start off by reminding people that everything in these F&I threads is open to changes, however there are some significant balance issues being dealt with here that will need to be solved in one way or another. There are also some details that remain to be ironed out but we wanted to get these ideas out to you all as early as possible.


[/list]



While you are on the subject of missles how about fixing the Rapid Light Missle Launchers so that they can fire the Light Defender Missle 1?
As the Light defender can be fired from the Light Missle Launcher module group and the Rapid Light Missle Launchers are after all Light Missle launchers they should be able to do that.
Also the Heavy Assault Missle Launchers will only carry and launch Light Defenders should they not use Heavy Defenders instead?

Be polite.

Be professional.

But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

Durkuh Durka
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#4643 - 2012-10-14 13:46:47 UTC
I just pulled down a set of EFT dat files that purportedly uses the proposed numbers.

ASSUMING the numbers and calcs in these files are correct, then the Hurricane is completely trashed as an arty platform (which is funny given you called it that in your original post).

A plated cane with 720's if going to be 20% over PG with an RCUII. To actually use armor, you literally need to fill up the rig slots with ACRs. Did you really intend to make the hurricane require four fitting devices to use artillery?

A shield cane, as you noted will require one ACR and one RCUII.

Contrast this with an armor harby with 7 vs 6 turrets. It has over 50K EHP and dishes out nearly 100DPS more than the armor cane, while using an RCUII and one ACR.


While the dual medium neuts probably need to be addressed, they're hardly as game breaking enough to require you to completely dumpster the hurricane as an arty ship. You'd be better off leaving the PG and reducing the highs by one (not that I'd want that).

I would suggest holding off on this change until after the BC revision period arrives. Work on the class as a whole without trying to hodge podge the changes for one platform.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4644 - 2012-10-14 14:25:37 UTC
Durkuh Durka wrote:
I just pulled down a set of EFT dat files that purportedly uses the proposed numbers.

ASSUMING the numbers and calcs in these files are correct, then the Hurricane is completely trashed as an arty platform (which is funny given you called it that in your original post).

A plated cane with 720's if going to be 20% over PG with an RCUII. To actually use armor, you literally need to fill up the rig slots with ACRs. Did you really intend to make the hurricane require four fitting devices to use artillery?

A shield cane, as you noted will require one ACR and one RCUII.

Contrast this with an armor harby with 7 vs 6 turrets. It has over 50K EHP and dishes out nearly 100DPS more than the armor cane, while using an RCUII and one ACR.


While the dual medium neuts probably need to be addressed, they're hardly as game breaking enough to require you to completely dumpster the hurricane as an arty ship. You'd be better off leaving the PG and reducing the highs by one (not that I'd want that).

I would suggest holding off on this change until after the BC revision period arrives. Work on the class as a whole without trying to hodge podge the changes for one platform.


I think they nerf the Neut-option for the Cane because they are well aware they will completely TRASH the Drake with those changes for PvP, and it would not look good if we see more Winmatar. So they hope Gallente and Amarr will fill up the hole the Drake leaves. So while basically I agree with you about the existing balance problems I am not sure you are aware of the much bigger issue with the complete removal of Caldari missile PvP in medium and large hulls which is incoming.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4645 - 2012-10-14 14:31:36 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
the complete removal of Caldari missile PvP in medium and large hulls which is incoming.


Heavy missiles need to be nerfed so CCP can rebalance ships around new stats so those missile ships will be used in the future too.

You can't say Drake isn't OP when that hull gets used in lowsec and nullsec a lot.
Lili Lu
#4646 - 2012-10-14 16:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
the complete removal of Caldari missile PvP in medium and large hulls which is incoming.



Heavy missiles need to be nerfed so CCP can rebalance ships around new stats so those missile ships will be used in the future too.

You can't say Drake isn't OP when that hull gets used in lowsec and nullsec a lot.



But you forget Noemi has proven with his own eyes (from Jita) that Drakes aren't used in lowsec, only Canes. So you see you are clearly wrong because Noemi's eyes record those facts for all of us. No getting around it.P

Also, Noemi, post here with ROU Psychopath.

It seems your only post ever on the forums was this http://eve-search.com/search/author/ROU+Psychopath
http://eve-search.com/thread/33177-1/page/1#8

I'm not sure he is your character. Post here with him. Prove my suspision wrong. There you go Noemi, an opportunity to prove me wrong definitively, without using only your anecdotal perception and experience.Smile

edit - And yeah. CCP has as it's mission the desire for the "complete removal of Caldari missile PvP in medium and large hulls." Roll
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4647 - 2012-10-14 16:25:38 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
But you forget Noemi has proven with his own eyes (from Jita) that Drakes aren't used in lowsec, only Canes. So you see you are clearly wrong because Noemi's eyes record those facts for all of us. No getting around it.P


True. Oops
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#4648 - 2012-10-14 16:32:11 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
So while basically I agree with you about the existing balance problems I am not sure you are aware of the much bigger issue with the complete removal of Caldari missile PvP in medium and large hulls which is incoming.


Ignore the HAM Caracal at your peril.
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4649 - 2012-10-14 16:42:43 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
the complete removal of Caldari missile PvP in medium and large hulls which is incoming.


Heavy missiles need to be nerfed so CCP can rebalance ships around new stats so those missile ships will be used in the future too.

You can't say Drake isn't OP when that hull gets used in lowsec and nullsec a lot.


It gets used, but not more than other hulls in lowsec, and nullsec we will see what the Zealots will do. So according to your line the Zealot, Cane, Naga, Loki, Nado are all OP too?

Btw, 14th of October says:

1 Zealot 55779
2 Drake 45373
3 Hurricane 27594
4 Naga 26584
5 Loki 25543
6 Tornado 23159
7 Tengu 21838
8 Maelstrom 16372
9 Rokh 13099
10 Stabber Fleet Issue 12411
11 Thrasher 11908
12 Oracle 11884
13 Sabre 11448
14 Cynabal 10552
15 Talos 10203
16 Huginn 9943
17 Legion 9676
18 Manticore 8752
19 Apocalypse Navy Issue 8729
20 Hound 8676

And I tell you something more. The most OP ship in Eve atm is not even in this list. But thats because its got a price tag which will not let everyone use it in numbers in PvP.

about this stupid BS Lili Lu keeps to post - just one. I never said Drakes are not used in low. And most probably all the rest she/he says is as valid as this obvious lie. There is no need for more proof Lili, you show yourself how wrong you are over and over again :)
Lili Lu
#4650 - 2012-10-14 17:01:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Noemi Nagano wrote:
It gets used, but not more than other hulls in lowsec, and nullsec we will see what the Zealots will do. So according to your line the Zealot, Cane, Naga, Loki, Nado are all OP too?

Btw, 14th of October says:

1 Zealot 55779
2 Drake 45373
3 Hurricane 27594
4 Naga 26584
5 Loki 25543
6 Tornado 23159
7 Tengu 21838
8 Maelstrom 16372
9 Rokh 13099
10 Stabber Fleet Issue 12411
11 Thrasher 11908
12 Oracle 11884
13 Sabre 11448
14 Cynabal 10552
15 Talos 10203
16 Huginn 9943
17 Legion 9676
18 Manticore 8752
19 Apocalypse Navy Issue 8729
20 Hound 8676

And I tell you something more. The most OP ship in Eve atm is not even in this list. But thats because its got a price tag which will not let everyone use it in numbers in PvP.

about this stupid BS Lili Lu keeps to post - just one. I never said Drakes are not used in low. And most probably all the rest she/he says is as valid as this obvious lie. There is no need for more proof Lili, you show yourself how wrong you are over and over again :)

Oh Noemi (ROU Psychopath wanabe) finally you post something other than your own perceptions. Congrats. And you know why Zealots and some other armor tanked ships are very recently seeing more use? Because surprisingly the new tech II 1600mm plates breathed new life into AHAC Zealots etc. Do you have a problem with a ship that takes a whole bunch more sp to skill into dethroning the Drake? I guess so.

But it doesn't change anything about the imbalance with HMs. Nothing changed with heavy pulse IIs and scorch (a short range weapon system afterall). I don't see Harbingers sitting up there with Drakes and Canes. So sadly for you this recent break in the multi-year pattern of Drakes topping that list does nothing to support any alteration of the impending nerf to HMs.

And your last sentence is the resort of someone who would otherwise just post something like "oh yeah, well you're an *******."Lol
PAPULA
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#4651 - 2012-10-14 17:18:36 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
the complete removal of Caldari missile PvP in medium and large hulls which is incoming.


Heavy missiles need to be nerfed so CCP can rebalance ships around new stats so those missile ships will be used in the future too.

You can't say Drake isn't OP when that hull gets used in lowsec and nullsec a lot.

Well CCP should just make all weapons the same, exact same range, exact same damage.
Then we have a balanced weapon system, but do we really want that ? same for all 4 races ?
Ugh
Lili Lu
#4652 - 2012-10-14 17:21:06 UTC
PAPULA wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
the complete removal of Caldari missile PvP in medium and large hulls which is incoming.


Heavy missiles need to be nerfed so CCP can rebalance ships around new stats so those missile ships will be used in the future too.

You can't say Drake isn't OP when that hull gets used in lowsec and nullsec a lot.

Well CCP should just make all weapons the same, exact same range, exact same damage.
Then we have a balanced weapon system, but do we really want that ? same for all 4 races ?
Ugh

Yeah, that's what's happening here. Roll Btw, I guess this followup post is proving your first post itt was a serious post. Tinfoil hats, my friend. Tin foil hats.Blink
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4653 - 2012-10-14 18:59:31 UTC
Had any luck on the Jita undock this weekend Noemi? If not, maybe you should have chosen a slightly less obvious name for your NPC-corp remote sensor boosting ganglink Vulture alt.
Qaidan Alenko
Eezo-Lution Inc.
#4654 - 2012-10-14 19:08:09 UTC
So... Fozzie... any updates to share with us on these proposed missile changes?
Go ahead... Get your Wham on!!!
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4655 - 2012-10-14 19:59:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
I was going to post this earlier but there was a jump from the edge of space that was way more interesting than arguing with Noemi.

There's two ways to do this:

1) They rebalance ships and tweak missiles after all ships have been rebalanced.
- Problem with this is if they go with new missile stats most of the ships would appear as "broken".
2) Tweak missiles when they are going to rebalance first ships that use those missiles. The way they seem to be doing it.
- Problem: weapon system would appear as "broken".

Actually there's a third way:

3) Rebalance missile ships after everything else is done.
- Problem: way more work for devs.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4656 - 2012-10-14 20:02:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Noemi Nagano wrote:


Btw, 14th of October says:
1 Zealot 55779
2 Drake 45373
3 Hurricane 27594
4 Naga 26584
5 Loki 25543
6 Tornado 23159
7 Tengu 21838
8 Maelstrom 16372
9 Rokh 13099
10 Stabber Fleet Issue 12411
11 Thrasher 11908
12 Oracle 11884
13 Sabre 11448
14 Cynabal 10552
15 Talos 10203
16 Huginn 9943
17 Legion 9676
18 Manticore 8752
19 Apocalypse Navy Issue 8729
20 Hound 8676


This development is very interesting. It's the first time that the Drake isn't #1 by a large margin. Psychological effect of impending HML nerfs? Or is it the T2 plates as Lili Lu is suggesting?

It's worth noting that HMLs are still #1 weapon system by the way.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4657 - 2012-10-14 20:19:18 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:


Btw, 14th of October says:
1 Zealot 55779
2 Drake 45373
3 Hurricane 27594
4 Naga 26584
5 Loki 25543
6 Tornado 23159
7 Tengu 21838
8 Maelstrom 16372
9 Rokh 13099
10 Stabber Fleet Issue 12411
11 Thrasher 11908
12 Oracle 11884
13 Sabre 11448
14 Cynabal 10552
15 Talos 10203
16 Huginn 9943
17 Legion 9676
18 Manticore 8752
19 Apocalypse Navy Issue 8729
20 Hound 8676


This development is very interesting. It's the first time that the Drake isn't #1 by a large margin. Psychological effect of impending HML nerfs? Or is it the T2 plates as Lili Lu is suggesting?

It's worth noting that HMLs are still #1 weapon system by the way.


No its Goons backing themselves in a corner with doctrine and not being able to react, and thus getting themselves farmed by NC.

A zealot gets basically a 50% damage reduction against drakes by virtue or being a zealot, likewise if you can land right in the middle of an alphafleet with zealots....lol 1400mms tracking AB AAAAAAAARRRRRRMMMMOOOOOORRRRR HACS at close range? Yeah, good luck with that.

Evekill being hosed means I can't really prove it atm....but trust me those numbers are the war going on in the north.

Lili Lu
#4658 - 2012-10-14 21:13:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Onictus wrote:
A zealot gets basically a 50% damage reduction against drakes by virtue or being a zealot, likewise if you can land right in the middle of an alphafleet with zealots....lol 1400mms tracking AB AAAAAAAARRRRRRMMMMOOOOOORRRRR HACS at close range? Yeah, good luck with that.

Evekill being hosed means I can't really prove it atm....but trust me those numbers are the war going on in the north.

Eve-kill whether hosed or not does not break those numbers down by region of space. Plenty of revival of AHACs and Zealots in lowsec. So it's not just nullsec and NC.

Regardless, concerning nullsec use, AHACs had pretty much receeded from view. Their sudden reemergence in the last month or so needs explanation. Nothing has changed other than the introduction of the new stats for tech II 1600 plates. Having that extra buffer is a big deal to ships that otherwise lacked enough for the trully large scale cluster **** battles. It's the only explanation I can come up with (not being involved in nullsec fleet fights anymore).

I'm sure if my theory was or is wrong someone would have or will post that I'm wrong, and explain why they are so prolific once again.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#4659 - 2012-10-14 21:42:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
While T2 armor plates received an increase in principle amount. There's no fundamental difference between AHACS now (2012) and AHACS during Pandemic Legions war with Northern Coalition (2011).

The reason Pandemic Legion moved from Zealots toward Abaddons are still there. However, in those days there was a near complete focus on Drakes and numbers, instead of battleships. Bring enough hml-Drakes and thier ability to do damage to AHAC's dissapears. So, alot of Drakes were and are a counter to Zealots.

Abaddons were used as counter to the sheer numbers, tank and damage (volley) of hml-Drakes. Why? Because Drakes have battleship damage projection and defenses. Once Drakes were clearly countered by Abaddons. Other entities started focusing on long range battleships like Maelstroms. The benifits of these ships were limited training time to achieve effectiveness because you only needed to train for meta 4 large artillery and battleship damage and tank. Maelstroms were not a counter to Abaddons, but provided they were used correctly they could defeat a equal number of Abaddons.

So, entites went back to AHAC's to directly counter Maelstroms (long range battleships). However, these fleet now rolled around with ALOT of Huginns. Meaning you had to go threw all of those before you could start using Zealots effectively. AHACS were almost dead @ this point. Insert Rokhs here because they're superior to Maelstroms.

Now! Navy Apocalypse are suppose to be a hybrid of Abaddons and Rokhs. They have better range and tracking enabling them to engage AHACS as well as Abaddons, but cannot be out ranged so easly by Tengus and Rokhs. Also, Navy Appocalypse use started in low security space by the powerfull and innovative there (like many things in this game). Navy Apocalypse are good but, are inferior to Abaddons @ 60,000m and below. So, Provided a fleet of hml-Tengus are within Abaddon optimal; A fleet of Abaddons was and is still able to MELT those Tengu's. Once hml-Tengus pulled and maintained range @ 80 - 120,000m from a fleet of Abaddons,damage drops of dramatically. Navy Apocalypse has optimal damage and similar tracking well up to 100 - 110,000m. A fleet of Tengu's are STILL superior to a fleet of Navy Apocalypse; provided there's equal to a slight lean of numbers towards the Navy Apocalypse in terms of numbers.

Navy Apocalypse can be countered or it would be better to say; they can be matched by a fleet of Rokhs.

Note: I remember when I first brought up the fact that those Evekill stats reflected 0.0 fleet doctrines. Players like Gyp who has a post not to far above this one said "how so?" and many others thought that statement was daft too. I was saying that for a year before it became a common fact. When it became truley commonly accepted was when PL started using ROKHS. 1 large entity using a new fleet doctrine and that did massive amount of damage determined what was on that EVE-kill list.

Anyway, AHACS have NOT changed significantly. Black Legion/NCDOT/Nulli are just dealing with alot less numbers compared to what PL was dealing with ALONE versus the old northern coalition. The CFC has lost alot of there numbers and have split into 2 smaller entites much more capable of handling wars on 2 different fronts but, it seems the north is weaker than the south. Which has alot more to do with PL's involvement in the south (Pl being the real leadership of the south (the puppet master)).

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4660 - 2012-10-14 22:13:06 UTC
Major Killz wrote:


Anyway, AHACS have NOT changed significantly. Black Legion/NCDOT/Nulli are just dealing with alot less numbers compared to what PL was dealing with ALONE versus the old northern coalition. The CFC has lost alot of there numbers and have split into 2 smaller entites much more capable of handling wars on 2 different fronts but, it seems the north is weaker than the south. Which has alot more to do with PL's involvement in the south (Pl being the real leadership of the south (the puppet master)).



Astute.