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Dev blog: Stay on Target!

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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#701 - 2012-10-13 18:58:53 UTC
Shemmy wrote:
Several people are saying that transversal / angular velocity / speed need to be visible on the target graphics.

Maybe CCP can add a feature where your ship automatically approaches optimal in the most effective way WRT transversal, and maybe then they could turn the guns on automatically too.

Oh and they could autopilot your alt's hulk into a belt and mine some veld for you while you're at it.

Sheesh. Roll



hey troll...

it would be a usefull tip for new players who dont fully understand the concept of transversal ffs...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#702 - 2012-10-13 19:02:42 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
CCP Sisyphus wrote:
But on the plus side, there are some real gold nuggets of feedback here! Which makes me feel like coming to you more often at the concept stage :)

I think it would be wonderful if more and more devs felt this way. Hopefully the feedback from this thread, and its general tone, will encourage more such efforts in the future.

After all, you can catch more devs with honey than with vinegar.


i tend to catch more devs with rohypnol personally...
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#703 - 2012-10-13 19:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko Lorenzio
CCP karkur wrote:


On a more personal note it just makes me sad when people act like this. Fozzie is indeed doing a great job, but so is a whole lot of other people I work with. We come here to talk to you guys but it's like your damned if you do and damned if you don't.... and the more people that act like that, the more likely is that we will just not bother and just go watch TV or something.


Please don't punish the rest of us by being discouraged by some angry voices Sad
Like many of us said, you guys are doing an awesome job and we appreciate you getting to us early for the feedback... to avoid yet another catastrophe like the Unified Inventory. After CQ and UI disasters though you have to admit, a lot of players are very suspicious and skeptical about CCP's credibility in general (myself included). Nothing personal, but I started to put a lot more value into what you guys do and what the final product is than what you actually say.
You will never be able to please 100% of players 100% of the time, the important thing is to make sure that you don't go against 90% of players in your decision making, like you have with CQ and UI. If it's broken, postpone it, if it's unpopular, compromise, but we understand you can't flip flop back and forth every time.

That being said, MAKE DAMAGE CLOCKWISE OR I WILL RAGE QUIT! Ok, I won't, but seriously... it makes sense! P

Edit: PS: It's the weekend! Go home, there's plenty of time ahead, we'll see you guys on Monday!

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#704 - 2012-10-13 20:18:24 UTC
Has any logistics pilot made comments about this new UI?
I used to fly logi's in null sec battles, in wh's, and in Incursions.

I can't imagine what this is going to look like when I am targeting 15 pilots.
Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#705 - 2012-10-13 22:39:16 UTC
I like some of the innovations presented in the dev blog, but some I don't like.

The proposed change of the target icons (upper right section) is what I don't like and I believe it would be a bad (!) move.

Current target icons are very efficient and present the relevant data in an intuitive way. The strength of the current target icons should become apparent when you manage multiple targets.
With the new target icons it get progressively harder to “read” the information at a glance the more targets you have to manage. In part this is because you no longer have all shield, armor and structure bars aligned side by side (with regard to multiple targets) or top to bottom (with regard to each singular target) respectively. It is as if you had the damage information per target now in three separate places instead of a single place.
Another (lesser) problem with the new design is the difficulty to understand which section represents shields, which is armor and which is structure. While it should be possible for players to adapt, it is less intuitive and thus could make it harder for new players. Adding a distinguished color hue for each section might help.
All in all the new target icons seem to make it much harder to access necessary information without providing a noticeable benefit.


I do like the change of the targeting brackets or at least most of it.

It looks nice and it provides additional information. Before you make final decisions on the size of the circles and especially the line thickness please test it with as many targets as is possible. From the picture it seems as if the new targeting brackets obscure more of the background than the old brackets.


Suggestions:

If it isn't “too much” information with regard to PvP you might think about adding a numerical DPS meter for incoming damage (maybe instead of the flashing red circle). Just make an overlay over the ship pictures in the (old style) target icons. Outgoing DPS could be displayed near the bottom of the targeting bracket of the currently selected target.

Instead of using absolute sizes for shield, armor and structure bars in the circular targeting bracket you could use relative sizes (again, if that isn't “too much” information). That way a ship with 1000 points in shield and 500 in armor and structure each would show a shield bar from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock, armor bar from 6 to 9 o'clock and structure from 9 to 12.

It would be nice to get information about the damage type of incoming damage. In case you think about the above mentioned DPS meter you might preset the value with the icon of the damage type dealt by that target (or in case of mixed damage types the type that represents the biggest portion of the damage).


Lipbite
Express Hauler
#706 - 2012-10-14 07:27:54 UTC
It's sad to see CCP karkur leaving team Avatar - EVE station interiors and avatars are greatest graphic environment in modern games. Thanks for your work in team Avatar, CCP karkur! And best of luck with new team.
OlRotGut
#707 - 2012-10-14 07:28:04 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Has any logistics pilot made comments about this new UI?
I used to fly logi's in null sec battles, in wh's, and in Incursions.

I can't imagine what this is going to look like when I am targeting 15 pilots.


I fly logi and I approve of this change. The entire in-space UI needs to be drastically overhauled. Specifically to enhance notifications/information/targeting to players.

This is a great first step and some of the suggestions are pretty good too. I am looking fwd to version 2.0 of the UI.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#708 - 2012-10-14 15:05:49 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Has any logistics pilot made comments about this new UI?
I used to fly logi's in null sec battles, in wh's, and in Incursions.

I can't imagine what this is going to look like when I am targeting 15 pilots.


Very good point - which is why CCP needs 1000's of pilots to look at developments loooong before it hits a test server.

Perhaps a different color scheme for targeted friendlies and neut objects?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#709 - 2012-10-14 16:03:50 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I can't imagine what this is going to look like when I am targeting 15 pilots.
Like an impassable log-in screen after you get banned for injecting code to circumvent your skill limitations… Blink
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#710 - 2012-10-14 16:27:08 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
First Big smile

Edit:
We know that people are a bit confused what is what in the HP circles around the targets. We will be looking into what we can do to make it clearer.
We appreciate your feedback, and please keep it coming, but there is no need to keep repeating what many have said before you, we are aware of this confusion Smile


Hi Karkur,

Thank you for the dev blog and providing new eden with an insight into the level of dedication required to create a UI for a MMORG like EVE.

I think the improvements you have in WiP look very promising and no doubt will be well received, however I feel I should point something out that perhaps you have mused upon yourself, I'm not sure...

It's the necessity of the 'target locked' icon itself.

Y'see, originally we had to click on a potential target to get a lock-on, and there was not an overview to use, so most people used to constantly scan to get a list of potential targets.

Then (thank the heavens) we got the 'overview' table, which is what people use the most - and I must say that the very thing you are working on is actually redundant.

All that (afaict) is needed is perhaps enlargement/zoom of what is already on the overview, with whatever modules/alerts etc are needed right next to it. So, if you target someone, or they target you, their information on the overview would be enlarged and then, perhaps, pop to the top of the overview.

Ask yourself the question: "what is the end purpose of having a large icon when people use the overview for everything?"

I hope you drop development of the 'target locked icon', and just work on improving the brackets, which is partially what you have done and I think that is looking like it has great potential.

Thanks again for the blog,

AK

This space for rent.
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#711 - 2012-10-14 16:49:10 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Explorer
CCP karkur wrote:
Ana Fox wrote:
This looks like we "want you to tell us what you think but we will do what we want anyway".

What is purpose of this blogs when you ignore all negative feedback and just look nice ones?

If you are asking people for sake of asking than dont bother ,it is boring and just giving chance to people that are forum fans to write here.

Through all this pages players noted numerous times that they dont like this ,or they just ask to have option to have old UI to choose when they log in.No you dont give **** you just ignore that.

CCP Fozzie is only start of your team and guy that is really reading feedback ,rest of team this is just sad.It was same with inventory ,now with crime watch (that is epic fail),and lets us not forget bot heaven you made with mining barges together with farmwill named FW (that you needed 6 freaking months to see it is broken what is really sad).

I am really sad that I have both my accounts payed for one year more.

Point is you are not asking for opinion you are just trying to be nice,but you will just continue being stubborn and f... all we will do what ever we want to do,cause we are awesom.

Dont bother to reply ,cause I learned something from you too. I dont care anymore !
I'm sorry that you feel that way.

The main reason we don't want to offer both is that it's a pain to maintain.... every time you need to update or fix something, you need to make sure you are not messing up the other thing. Dealing with special cases eats up our time. Also, the code is old. Sometimes parts of it need to be restructured so it makes more sense, and that can even result in better performance for you. But it gets harder and harder to keep the new code and the old code compatible if you need to make those changes.

Of course I like being nice (I'll even put a smiley here to demonstrate that Smile), but we are actually asking for feedback and taking it in. That does not mean we are going to do everything people suggest, or completely change our feature, but we taking it in and evaluating it. We actually spent most of yesterday talking this over, looked at screenshots people posted and discussed many of the suggestions.

I don't see the need to keep responding to people who say the are confused by the health bars, because I've already stated that we acknowledge that people are confused about it and that we are working on it. And in some cases I don't know what to say, because I might not have the answer right now or can't comment on it... it doesn't mean we are not reading it (or should I maybe comment on every single post I read "Roger"?)

On a more personal note it just makes me sad when people act like this. Fozzie is indeed doing a great job, but so is a whole lot of other people I work with. We come here to talk to you guys but it's like your damned if you do and damned if you don't.... and the more people that act like that, the more likely is that we will just not bother and just go watch TV or something.

On that note, and especially given the reference to CCP Fozzie, then I want to copy/paste a part from a post he made recently:

Quote:

I will ask everyone to please keep your feedback and your interactions with each other civil. Remember that this is the Features and Ideas forum, not the wild untamed expanse of General Discussion or the brutal gladiatorial pit of CAOD. This is the section of the forums where intellectual equals meet in mutual admiration to calmly and rationally discuss potential changes to the game, muse casually about overnight interest rates, and sip tea with our pinky extended.

Feedback is always more useful when it includes details about the problems you foresee from a specific change.

  • "I don't agree with change X because I believe it will have effect Y for reasons A, B and C" is excellent and very persuasive feedback and I thank the large numbers of you who have provided this kind of feedback so far.
  • "DIE IN A FIRE" is an example of significantly less useful feedback. It doesn't tell us which changes you object to, or what the reasons for your position are. In fact it even makes it hard to tell whether you actually object to the content of the change or are just experiencing an unusually strong craving for S'mores.


Nobody is ignoring anyone here; your constructive and professional feedback (be it positive or negative) is welcome and appreciated and will be evaluated.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#712 - 2012-10-14 17:07:22 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Explorer
Misanth wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Misanth wrote:
Yah this is unfortunately quite common with CCP.

I have repeatedly highlighted every recent UI change for how everything just increases in size. At one point I asked Punkturis straight out if she's blind as a bat, and I even said the very least they can do is to give players the option to customize, as that is never a bad option. She was at least honest in her reply, stating she disagrees, and that more options is bad.

But frankly, in this case, those circular icons looked to be smaller to me, not bigger? I could be wrong, as others pointed out, the pictures doesn't really show. Either case, I completely agree with you, CCP should stop making everything so damn big, and they should really re-consider their stance that customizeable is bad.
CCP karkur already replied to a good portion of this here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2030910#post2030910
No, she didn't. She replied to comments on THIS issue, I was talking about CCP in general. No offense to anyone, and karkur has been excellent in this thread, but your company has a poor track record when it comes to make-everything-in-the-UI-massive-and-wide! Blink
No, you weren't Big smile You started off talking about CCP in general and then you proceeded to talk about the size of the icons here in particular.
Misanth wrote:
..and I didn't plan to reply to this comment by you, but since you mis-read my post:
CCP Explorer wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
Battlingbean wrote:
The real question we should all be asking is why does skills have a Focused medium Pulse Laser I on his Raven?
skills is just clueless and does whatever... for example he loses avatars to noobs
Video proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HrNu0WdUJg&t=1m10s
..karkur already posted a link to that video as well. So you didn't just mis-read my post, it seems you also didn't read through the thread - not even checking what your workmates posted. But it's ok, I think you're cute. <3
I normally read through a thread and respond as I go along; it's very tricky to read a long thread, note down what might I might want to respond to and then further note for each of those if anyone has already responded What?

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#713 - 2012-10-14 17:11:42 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Explorer
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Quote:
But it gets harder and harder to keep the new code and the old code compatible if you need to make those changes.
EVE 2.0? Cool
As of Tuesday this week we'll be up to EVE 8.10 (up from 7.43, we don't often up the major number) Big smile We are constantly refactoring EVE's code base as we improve and extend EVE.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
Shemmy
The Order Of Entropy
#714 - 2012-10-14 17:12:54 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:


hey troll...

it would be a usefull tip for new players who dont fully understand the concept of transversal ffs...


Where do you stop with that, though? Do you have graphics over every item in your hangar that tells you their fitting cost? Do you have graphics over every asteroid in a belt telling you how much ore is left in them? Do you have graphics over every wormhole telling you how much mass it can still take? Do you have graphics on each mission offer that tells you the amount of bounty you're going to earn and factors that into the pay? Do you have graphics that tell you what the target's shield/armour resists are? Do you have graphics that tell you the target's hitpoints? Do you have graphics when you approach a stargate that tells you the number of ship kills and pod kills in the next system in the last X hours?

Seriously, dude, this information is already available to people and they have to use their nous to work it out. I honestly never believed I'd be the "don't dumb down mai EvE" bittervet type, but some of the things I've read in this thread do make me wonder if people want to be spoon fed everything without having to lift a finger. This has always been the kind of game where you have to *do things*. You have to make stuff happen, you have to take the initiative.

Overview --> Right click --> Settings --> Columns --> oh look, all the information you desire. Why does that *also* need to be on a targetting icon?
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
#715 - 2012-10-14 17:14:00 UTC
FYI, statistically, people are more likely to take the time to log-in to post a complaint than a complement. So for everyone posting that they hate the new circles, there are a lot more people NOT posting that love them (I love them!)

Great job devs, I have been wanting the circles back since they left 8 or 9 years ago. It is SO much more easy to read for me and really looks a lot more polished.

For people complaining that is is confusing... how? How could this possibly take longer than 1 second to figure out? It doesn't even matter which one is shield/armor/hull because as soon as you start shooting the mystery is solved!

Also, I'm wondering why you guys decided to go back to circles. I posted this https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1892872#post1892872 (post #62 if my hyper linking skills aren't working) and almost exactly a month later this change is in a dev blog!.....

Ok ok, I'm sure it is just a coincidence, but I'm going to pretend otherwise!

That awkward moment at the Gentlemen's Club when you see your sister on the stage....and you're not sure where to put the money....
Internet Knight
Brothers of Tyr
Goonswarm Federation
#716 - 2012-10-14 17:46:03 UTC
So these hit animations will also include people doing ewar, right? So if someone is warp scrambling me, I can see some sort of *obvious* warp scramble animation on the aggressor?
John Nucleus
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#717 - 2012-10-14 20:15:53 UTC  |  Edited by: John Nucleus
Shemmy wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:


hey troll...

it would be a usefull tip for new players who dont fully understand the concept of transversal ffs...


Where do you stop with that, though? Do you have graphics over every item in your hangar that tells you their fitting cost? Do you have graphics over every asteroid in a belt telling you how much ore is left in them? Do you have graphics over every wormhole telling you how much mass it can still take? Do you have graphics on each mission offer that tells you the amount of bounty you're going to earn and factors that into the pay? Do you have graphics that tell you what the target's shield/armour resists are? Do you have graphics that tell you the target's hitpoints? Do you have graphics when you approach a stargate that tells you the number of ship kills and pod kills in the next system in the last X hours?

Seriously, dude, this information is already available to people and they have to use their nous to work it out. I honestly never believed I'd be the "don't dumb down mai EvE" bittervet type, but some of the things I've read in this thread do make me wonder if people want to be spoon fed everything without having to lift a finger. This has always been the kind of game where you have to *do things*. You have to make stuff happen, you have to take the initiative.

Overview --> Right click --> Settings --> Columns --> oh look, all the information you desire. Why does that *also* need to be on a targetting icon?


You stop when the information needed to do a task is intuitive to retrieve and understand. Obscuring data in an excel sheet doesn't make Eve hardcore, just less accessible. Showing data with well defined symbols and icons would also help leveling the playing field between new and experience players.

This isn't dumbing down eve, it's smarting up the player base.
Solhild
Doomheim
#718 - 2012-10-14 21:20:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Solhild
Hi,

The proposal that target lock icons should be redundant is worth considering.

An updated overview would certainly be the best way to go.
Something like this:

Overview top section (1) = locked targets move here. The ship cell in the table could be backfilled with a coloured bar representing the status of their tank (similar to the cargo contents bars now). Split the bar into 3 sections for shield/armour/hull and give them a different base colour. Add a column for damage being inflicted, agression, lock, EWAR etc.

Overview middle (2) = similar to current overview, with a filterable column that contains new icons as with (1).

Overview lower section (3) = Flagged friendlies go here, if locked, go to the very bottom. Use a coloured bar as with (1).

The improved circular graphic for the brackets looks great! If anything, make it bigger Cool

I'll fall into the set that wants increasing tank to go clockwise and damage to reduce it back anticlockwise. Can you consider an option to set the '0' point to the base of the circle rather than the top? Perhaps make the HUD work like this too?

Looking good so far, can't wait to test it all

Edit: just add two new overview tabs, locked targets and flagged friendlies. Allow tabs to be pulled out of overview into separate windows. Any combination of tab settings should also be possible, each tab should be able to be tweaked without affecting other tabs. Good luck Cool
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#719 - 2012-10-14 23:29:05 UTC
It would be nice if guys that have blue standings and are also negative sec status don't just show up red to us.

Please seperate these 2 things along with the new targeting.
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#720 - 2012-10-15 00:22:10 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP karkur
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
It would be nice if guys that have blue standings and are also negative sec status don't just show up red to us.

Please seperate these 2 things along with the new targeting.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you can fix that yourself in the overview. Open the overview settings, drag the "has good/excellent standing" above the "is outlaw" option, and then you should see them as blue.

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur