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Getting Rid of the Undesirables (for good this time)

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#421 - 2012-10-13 20:35:32 UTC
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Your argument seems hypocritical. You don't want to be subjected to involuntary PvP for inflicting involuntary PvP on others.

If killrights had been made transferrable to a single, specific guy, or even a corp, this wouldn't have yielded the "CCP is just looking to make hisec absolutely risk-free" response. Just sayin'.

Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Agreed. I'd limit it at the corporation level, though. Making it alliance-wide would result in some interesting hopping exploits. But corporation would be fine. In fact, preferred to individual.

I'm not sure it would be so bad, but I would have absolutely no problems stopping at the corp level.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#422 - 2012-10-13 20:38:36 UTC
Pretty much anything that involves corporations leaving and joining alliances results in horrible bugs that get the hell abused out of them.
Risien Drogonne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#423 - 2012-10-13 20:44:28 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Your argument seems hypocritical. You don't want to be subjected to involuntary PvP for inflicting involuntary PvP on others.

If killrights had been made transferrable to a single, specific guy, or even a corp, this wouldn't have yielded the "CCP is just looking to make hisec absolutely risk-free" response. Just sayin'.

[

Doesn't that just mean you want to be able to pick who can PvP with you? Just like I said? You only want the involuntary PvP to go one-way?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#424 - 2012-10-13 20:46:58 UTC
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Doesn't that just mean you want to be able to pick who can PvP with you? Just like I said? You only want the involuntary PvP to go one-way?

How would that be "picking who can PVP with [me]" in any way, shape or form?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Risien Drogonne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#425 - 2012-10-13 20:50:58 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Doesn't that just mean you want to be able to pick who can PvP with you? Just like I said? You only want the involuntary PvP to go one-way?

How would that be "picking who can PVP with [me]" in any way, shape or form?

You're attempting to control who can retaliate against you for your aggression. You want to control the supposedly "involuntary" PVP. If your target has no control, why should you?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#426 - 2012-10-13 20:51:35 UTC
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Doesn't that just mean you want to be able to pick who can PvP with you? Just like I said? You only want the involuntary PvP to go one-way?


The guy with killrights on you chooses who to give the killrights to, not you. What part of what he said did you manage to misconstrue?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#427 - 2012-10-13 20:53:05 UTC
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Doesn't that just mean you want to be able to pick who can PvP with you? Just like I said? You only want the involuntary PvP to go one-way?

How would that be "picking who can PVP with [me]" in any way, shape or form?

You're attempting to control who can retaliate against you for your aggression. You want to control the supposedly "involuntary" PVP. If your target has no control, why should you?

How would one control who can retaliate against him when he has no bearing on who buys the kill rights?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#428 - 2012-10-13 20:54:38 UTC
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Doesn't that just mean you want to be able to pick who can PvP with you? Just like I said? You only want the involuntary PvP to go one-way?

How would that be "picking who can PVP with [me]" in any way, shape or form?

You're attempting to control who can retaliate against you for your aggression. You want to control the supposedly "involuntary" PVP. If your target has no control, why should you?

Again, how can I control who can retaliate against me for my aggression? I have absolutely no control over who the guy sells/gives the killright to, and if he gives it to a corp that's a lot of people who could be hunting for me, and I would have absolutely no clue until they aggress me.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#429 - 2012-10-13 21:00:56 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Doesn't that just mean you want to be able to pick who can PvP with you? Just like I said? You only want the involuntary PvP to go one-way?

How would that be "picking who can PVP with [me]" in any way, shape or form?

You're attempting to control who can retaliate against you for your aggression. You want to control the supposedly "involuntary" PVP. If your target has no control, why should you?

Again, how can I control who can retaliate against me for my aggression? I have absolutely no control over who the guy sells/gives the killright to, and if he gives it to a corp that's a lot of people who could be hunting for me, and I would have absolutely no clue until they aggress me.

I think this is the point at which the amazing denseness of some EVEO posters becomes obvious.

Either that, or even their strawmen are lame.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Herr Hammer Draken
#430 - 2012-10-13 21:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Hammer Draken
Lord Zim wrote:
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Risien Drogonne wrote:
Doesn't that just mean you want to be able to pick who can PvP with you? Just like I said? You only want the involuntary PvP to go one-way?

How would that be "picking who can PVP with [me]" in any way, shape or form?

You're attempting to control who can retaliate against you for your aggression. You want to control the supposedly "involuntary" PVP. If your target has no control, why should you?

Again, how can I control who can retaliate against me for my aggression? I have absolutely no control over who the guy sells/gives the killright to, and if he gives it to a corp that's a lot of people who could be hunting for me, and I would have absolutely no clue until they aggress me.


AS of right now the plan going forward is for the ship that has a kill right against it for sale to have a different icon in space so that everyone can see it for what it is. Then you right click on that ship and buy the kill right. Once that is done the ship in question turns red to everyone in the "area" I assume that means everyone in the system but it could be just on grid. This lasts for 15 minutes on a timer. If the suspect "the guy turned red" does not get killed during this time then that kill right icon resumes over his ship and allows someone else to buy it for another 15 minute timer and so on and so on. It only goes away when the red target ship dies during a "suspect" event.

During this 15 minute suspect time everyone in the area can shoot at the red target without getting concorded. Once each ship opens fire and aggresses then the red target can fire back freely as well. As far as I know none of this activity generates further kill rights for anyone involved in this fight.

I assume that this, I will call it a "kill right icon" pops up as soon as the holder of the kill right puts it up for sale. If he does not put it up for sale then that kill right icon does not appear. And no body can buy it until that kill right icon does appear.

That is the mechanic as explained on the dev blog. Which is subject to change "from feedback done on the dev blog" Not in this thread. They are not watching GD for feedback. So they said in the dev blog.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#431 - 2012-10-13 21:48:49 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
That is the mechanic as explained on the dev blog. Which is subject to change "from feedback done on the dev blog" Not in this thread. They are not watching GD for feedback. So they said in the dev blog.

Correct. However, a thread in GD raises awareness of the issue. Not a whole lot of people read the other section regularly.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#432 - 2012-10-13 21:51:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
AS of right now the plan going forward is for the ship that has a kill right against it for sale to have a different icon in space so that everyone can see it for what it is. Then you right click on that ship and buy the kill right. Once that is done the ship in question turns red to everyone in the "area" I assume that means everyone in the system but it could be just on grid. This lasts for 15 minutes on a timer. If the suspect "the guy turned red" does not get killed during this time then that kill right icon resumes over his ship and allows someone else to buy it for another 15 minute timer and so on and so on. It only goes away when the red target ship dies during a "suspect" event.

During this 15 minute suspect time eveyone in the area can shoot at the red target without getting concorded. Once each ship opens fire and aggresses then the red target can fire back freely as well. As far as I know none of this activity generates further kill rights for anyone involved in this fight.

I assume that this, I will call it a "kill right icon" pops up as soon as the holder of the kill right puts it up for sale. If he does not put it up for sale then that kill right icon does not appear. And no body can buy it until that kill right icon does appear.

That is the mechanic as explained on the dev blog.

Yes. We know.

Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Which is subject to change "from feedback done on the dev blog" Not in this thread. They are not watching GD for feedback. So they said in the dev blog.

Don't you worry, I'm on that as well.

However, when they've started off with things like canflipping turning you into a legal target for everyone, and they now want killrights to also turn you into a legal target for everyone, chances are they're going to make about as many changes to the core mechanic as they did the UI interface, i.e. minor changes only, and the whole "**** anyone who does anything undesired in hisec (or even lowsec) in the ass" part of it stays put.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Herr Hammer Draken
#433 - 2012-10-13 21:57:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Hammer Draken
Lord Zim wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
AS of right now the plan going forward is for the ship that has a kill right against it for sale to have a different icon in space so that everyone can see it for what it is. Then you right click on that ship and buy the kill right. Once that is done the ship in question turns red to everyone in the "area" I assume that means everyone in the system but it could be just on grid. This lasts for 15 minutes on a timer. If the suspect "the guy turned red" does not get killed during this time then that kill right icon resumes over his ship and allows someone else to buy it for another 15 minute timer and so on and so on. It only goes away when the red target ship dies during a "suspect" event.

During this 15 minute suspect time eveyone in the area can shoot at the red target without getting concorded. Once each ship opens fire and aggresses then the red target can fire back freely as well. As far as I know none of this activity generates further kill rights for anyone involved in this fight.

I assume that this, I will call it a "kill right icon" pops up as soon as the holder of the kill right puts it up for sale. If he does not put it up for sale then that kill right icon does not appear. And no body can buy it until that kill right icon does appear.

That is the mechanic as explained on the dev blog.

Yes. We know.

Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Which is subject to change "from feedback done on the dev blog" Not in this thread. They are not watching GD for feedback. So they said in the dev blog.

Don't you worry, I'm on that as well.

However, when they've started off with things like canflipping turning you into a legal target for everyone, and they now want killrights to also turn you into a legal target for everyone, chances are they're going to make about as many changes to the core mechanic as they did the UI interface, i.e. minor changes only, and the whole "**** anyone who does anything undesired in hisec (or even lowsec) in the ass" part of it stays put.


I put that up because in your statement you said that he could give that kill right to a corp and as of right now that is not how it works. But in a future patch it might happen that way. Future meaning after the winter update.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#434 - 2012-10-13 21:59:58 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
I put that up because in your statement you said that he could give that kill right to a corp and as of right now that is not how it works. But in a future patch it might happen that way.

I meant that's how it should work, and only that way. None of this "publically available, everyone can shoot you for 0 isk if you're dumb enough to not clear that killright on your own when it appears" bullshit they're adding now, with the promise of "oh we'll iterate on this feature soon (snicker)".

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#435 - 2012-10-13 22:56:26 UTC
I have made a concise post in the dev blog thread that presents my argument in detail. Please read it to fully understand what this thread is about. It is not a whine thread, but I am definitely complaining about the value of the proposed changes.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#436 - 2012-10-13 23:18:40 UTC
I just had a thought, and this makes it even more hilarious.

If the wording in the devblog means what I think it means, then if I were to get ganked, I could then spend the next 30 days just dogging the ganker and activating the killright whenever I wanted to. Barring that, if the money people would spend on activating the killright would go to the owner of the killright, all I would have to do to grief the everliving **** out of someone is make an alt, give that alt 1b or so, stalk the ganker, activate the killright whenever it is convenient and transfer that 1b back to the alt, ready to reactivate the killright again at a later date.

Or, of course, the ganker can pay me 1b to gank his own shuttle, I guess.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#437 - 2012-10-13 23:22:22 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
I just had a thought, and this makes it even more hilarious.

If the wording in the devblog means what I think it means, then if I were to get ganked, I could then spend the next 30 days just dogging the ganker and activating the killright whenever I wanted to. Barring that, if the money people would spend on activating the killright would go to the owner of the killright, all I would have to do to grief the everliving **** out of someone is make an alt, give that alt 1b or so, stalk the ganker, activate the killright whenever it is convenient and transfer that 1b back to the alt, ready to reactivate the killright again at a later date.

Or, of course, the ganker can pay me 1b to gank his own shuttle, I guess.

Yeah, essentially. By making the kill right too expensive for normal people to buy, you can give the ganker a suspect flag that either lasts 30 days or until he dies.

However, the ganker could use an alt to kill himself when you activate the kill right, making the system exploitable both ways.

Seriously, it's a completely useless system.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#438 - 2012-10-13 23:22:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
Lord Zim wrote:
I just had a thought, and this makes it even more hilarious.

If the wording in the devblog means what I think it means, then if I were to get ganked, I could then spend the next 30 days just dogging the ganker and activating the killright whenever I wanted to. Barring that, if the money people would spend on activating the killright would go to the owner of the killright, all I would have to do to grief the everliving **** out of someone is make an alt, give that alt 1b or so, stalk the ganker, activate the killright whenever it is convenient and transfer that 1b back to the alt, ready to reactivate the killright again at a later date.

Or, of course, the ganker can pay me 1b to gank his own shuttle, I guess.

In medieval Europe there was a form of literature which was quite popular in its time. I believe it may be making a comeback in an online, virtual form.

This literary form is known as the "Farce."

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#439 - 2012-10-13 23:34:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Darth Gustav wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
I just had a thought, and this makes it even more hilarious.

If the wording in the devblog means what I think it means, then if I were to get ganked, I could then spend the next 30 days just dogging the ganker and activating the killright whenever I wanted to. Barring that, if the money people would spend on activating the killright would go to the owner of the killright, all I would have to do to grief the everliving **** out of someone is make an alt, give that alt 1b or so, stalk the ganker, activate the killright whenever it is convenient and transfer that 1b back to the alt, ready to reactivate the killright again at a later date.

Or, of course, the ganker can pay me 1b to gank his own shuttle, I guess.

In medieval Europe there was a form of literature which was quite popular in its time. I believe it may be making a comeback in an online, virtual form.

This literary form is known as the "Farce."

Mmmm, wonder if this'll go through then people who use it in ways unexpected to CCP get in trouble for exploiting obviously unintended bugs.

I mean, it involves shooting people in highsec, that's serious stuff.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#440 - 2012-10-13 23:35:33 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Yeah, essentially. By making the kill right too expensive for normal people to buy, you can give the ganker a suspect flag that either lasts 30 days or until he dies.

However, the ganker could use an alt to kill himself when you activate the kill right, making the system exploitable both ways.

This is certainly true, since having a suspect flag doesn't stop you from docking up and swapping out to an inexpensive ship, but the right timing should make it a bit trickier to do.

Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Seriously, it's a completely useless system.

That it is, but it's as close as Stoffer can get to removing hisec aggression or griefing without actually making a lie out of the comment where he said "we would never completely remove hisec aggression". In short, wordlawyering to the highest degree.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat