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Solar Panels on Minatar ships

Author
pooper stain
Pyrrhic-Victory
#41 - 2011-10-17 20:56:56 UTC
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2001/ast21mar_1/

YES radiators work in space. We have had them on most space craft since the 60s.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#42 - 2011-10-17 20:59:32 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
there are zero particles in a vacuum, hence zero ways to radiate heat.
Now, you know that the whole point of radiating heat is that it doesn't use particles, right (well, beyond photons, which is always a matter of perspective)?

Space has plenty of particles, but not enough to make use of convection or conduction, so radiation is the standard mode of heat transfer out there.
Quote:
heat is vibrating particles
No. Heat is a form of energy. In matter, it generally manifests in the form vibration — kinetic energy, if you want to simplify it. But that is not the only manifestation it has. Another very very common one is EM radiation. There's a reason why IR cameras pick up heat signatures…
Quote:
they aren't part of a radiator system.
…except that big radiators is how all spacecraft since… oh… forever, have dumped their excessive heat. So no, the wingy bits on Minmatar ships could most certainly be radiators.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#43 - 2011-10-17 21:18:38 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
No. They have such systems because heat builds up faster than what it can be radiated. It's a volume vs surface thing: astronaut volume (body) generates heat faster than what the skin/suit surface can radiate it while preventing the astronaut from cooking if exposed to direct sunlight (wihtout insulation, heat would move quickly in both directions... inside too utside, but also outside to inside, and you don't want that under direct sunlight within Earth's orbit).
I can't find the link now — it might be on one of those rocket pages I linked earlier, but meh… :effort: — but I recall reading that if you took a skip out out the airlock in earth orbit, you'd achieve a medium body temperature of ~24° from the radiation of body heat and the absorption of solar heat. So it would be nice and balmy… until the whole pressure and lack of air thing sets in (because you can't have any isolation in either direction to get that temperature) and ruins your afternoon. P
Quote:
Otherwise radiation is proficent enough to keep ships uncomfortably cold unless they are warmed up. You could go and ask the crew from Apolllo XIII how fast was heat "bulding up" inside their powerless spaceship in the way back home. I'll give you a clue: without their heating systems, the moisture from their breath ended up freezing on the walls...
Apollo 13 is a particularly nice example of the design requirements. The reason it cooled down was because it was purposefully designed with a negative heat flow: big honking radiators to dump heat into space, and internal heaters to counteract those radiators, all based on the principle that it's far easier to generate new heat than to get rid of it (since all you have to work with is radiation — the most inefficient of heat transfer mechanisms).

…so obviously, when that heater can't be used and the radiators are still dumping heat, you get a less than pleasant situation. It still took nearly 3 days to get to freezing temperatures, though, which tells us something about how slow the process is.
David Grogan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2011-10-17 21:24:47 UTC  |  Edited by: David Grogan
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Sarmatiko wrote:
This is not solar panels. This is cooling radiators for their old nuclear reactors.


That wouldn't work very well... can't transfer heat that well into a vacuum.



space is not a true vacuum........... why do people think space is a true vacuum....

a true vacuum would be devoid of matter... space is full of matter

Definition of a Vacuum

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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#45 - 2011-10-17 21:35:22 UTC
David Grogan wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Sarmatiko wrote:
This is not solar panels. This is cooling radiators for their old nuclear reactors.


That wouldn't work very well... can't transfer heat that well into a vacuum.



space is not a true vacuum........... why do people think space is a true vacuum....

a true vacuum would be devoid of matter... space is full of matter

Definition of a Vacuum


No one said true vacuum, but certainly devoid of anywheres close to enough matter for effective convection to occur.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#46 - 2011-10-17 21:44:07 UTC
has anyone in this thread ever used a thermos? Shocked
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#47 - 2011-10-17 21:57:03 UTC
i swear i read solar penises

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#48 - 2011-10-17 23:10:17 UTC
MinSebsis wrote:
The're called "wingy bits"!
They've got a proper name, you know.
Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#49 - 2011-10-18 00:15:11 UTC
Something to Do with Wizards, I Can't Say more it's not Safe here xD

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.

Emiko P'eng
#50 - 2011-10-18 00:32:04 UTC
Well

The main difference in space is you can only transfer heat to space by Radiant or Mass Transfer means, while on earth with its atmosphere you can use Conduction, Convection, Radiant or Mass Transfer.

Conduction or diffusion
You transfer the energy between objects that are touching

Convection
You transfer the energy between an object and its surroundings by the fluid movement of another substance (eg. Air, Water)

Radiation
You transfer the energy to or from a body by the emission or absorption of electromagnetic radiation

Mass Transfer
The transfer of energy from one location to another by physically moving an object containing that energy

The final one has been used in space by telescopes that used Liquid Nitrogen & or Liquid Helium to cool their instruments . In those cases the evaporation of the liquid cooled the instruments, it also means they have a limited lifespan as they fail after they use up all their liquid supply

As an example here is a company the specialises in Satellite cooling:

Thermacore: - Thermal Management Solutions

Finally if the 'sail thingies' are not radiators, then if the current modifications to the Standard Model of the Universe are correct then Dark Matter & Dark Energy could provide the weird particles or energies required for reactor or warp drive to work, in that case the 'sail thingies' would absorb them for the warp drive or reactor!
Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#51 - 2011-10-18 00:33:57 UTC
And the fun was Killed....

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.

Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#52 - 2011-10-18 02:50:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Astrid Stjerna
Akirei Scytale wrote:

there are zero particles in a vacuum, hence zero ways to radiate heat. space does have some particles in it, but they are so few and far between that it would be meaningless. heat is vibrating particles. they aren't part of a radiator system. they are either solar panels, heat *gatherers* (absorbing sunlight), or just there for the same reason everything in EVE looks the way it does - because an artist thought they looked cool.


Uh...solar wind FTW.

From Wikipedia:

'The solar wind is a stream of charged particles ejected from the upper atmosphere of the Sun.'

And the crew of the space shuttle, on some of its early missions, noted that the shuttle's heat-shield absorbed heat form the sun and expanded, producing an audible 'roaring' noise within the spacecraft.

Besides, if there was no way for heat to radiate in a vacuum, Earth would be a block of ice.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....

Tahna Rouspel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2011-10-18 03:01:18 UTC
I believe a hot surface radiates energy in the form of Infrared. I'm not entirely sure. There's a lot more than the visible light that travels through space.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#54 - 2011-10-18 04:00:30 UTC
Emiko P'eng wrote:

Finally if the 'sail thingies' are not radiators, then if the current modifications to the Standard Model of the Universe are correct then Dark Matter & Dark Energy could provide the weird particles or energies required for reactor or warp drive to work, in that case the 'sail thingies' would absorb them for the warp drive or reactor!


I was tempted to speculate about tachyon sails, but I realize now that I think about it that there wouldn't be a way to decelerate a spacecraft with a tachyon engine (according to the current hypothesis, tachyons can't travel at sub-light speeds).

Given what we know of New Eden spacecraft, though, we can form a working hypothesis:

A typical frigate-sized spacecraft is powered by a fairly large capacitor-- take the Incursus, for example, with a base capacitor charge of 325 gJ. That's roughly three hundred billion joules (for comparison, a barrel of oil contains about six gigajoules of potential chemical energy when combusted). We know that a portion of the capacitor's charge is expended to propel the ship into warp.

Now, the issue with storing and expending that much energy is the sheer amount of heat it generates; the pilot and crew would probably be roasted alive the minute the ship entered warp, or the core would melt down. We can assume, since we don't wake up in a clone bay after every jump, and the ship comes out of warp intact, that there is some form of coolant employed.

We can reasonably assume that the Caldari, Gallente, and Amarr cycle the coolant through the hull of the spacecraft and back into the engine system. From an engineering standpoint, that makes sense; the exterior hull is exposed to space, which is unbelievably cold. The heat radiates away into space, and the coolant is pumped back into the engine.

Minmatar spacecraft, on the other hand, are little more than a spaceframe and a couple of sticks in most cases. Aside from the Rifter and its up-tier sister ships, there isn't really a lot of hull there to use. Putting the superheated coolant into tanks is just silly (because you're really just shifting the heat around that way, instead of cooling it), and the sheer amount of energy required to pump heated coolant through a maze of pipes all over the hull would make that method very inefficient.

So, based on the above, we can draw the conclusion that the 'wingy bits' on a Minmatar ship are most likely radiating panels; they present a large, flat surface (which gives a lot of space from which heat can bleed off), the cold of space 'leeches' the heat from the coolant, and it's then pumped back into the engine system again.

TL;DR: A wizard did it. Yay wizards! :)

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....

stoicfaux
#55 - 2011-10-18 04:28:28 UTC
And here I thought that the sails were just giant rust traps designed to keep the rust away from the main ship hull.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Digital Messiah
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2011-10-18 05:01:51 UTC
Light can travel as a wave or a particle, so long as it is traveling as light infrared or otherwise. It can then leave the radiator entering the dark cold void that is space.

Another explanation could be cold spots being created on a highly conductive material absorbing and dissipating heat at a rapid pace.

Something clever

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#57 - 2011-10-18 05:26:28 UTC
There is enough matter that if you use FTL for about 1 AU without any particle protection youll burn up from the friction.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

stoicfaux
#58 - 2011-10-18 05:33:14 UTC
Question: since we can sit a ship near/on/in a star, do we really expect physical radiators to be adequate enough to keep the ship cool?

Might as well just say that we dump excess heat into subspace or that the ship's shields radiate energy/heat.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#59 - 2011-10-18 06:38:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Akirei Scytale
Astrid Stjerna wrote:


Uh...solar wind FTW.

From Wikipedia:

'The solar wind is a stream of charged particles ejected from the upper atmosphere of the Sun.'

And the crew of the space shuttle, on some of its early missions, noted that the shuttle's heat-shield absorbed heat form the sun and expanded, producing an audible 'roaring' noise within the spacecraft.

Besides, if there was no way for heat to radiate in a vacuum, Earth would be a block of ice.


Uh, did you read what you quoted?

Akirei Scytale wrote:

space does have some particles in it, but they are so few and far between that it would be meaningless.


the solar wind is so unbelievably sparse that you'd have to be silly to factor it in here. do you have any idea how large a solar sail needs to be to pull a tiny little mass, like, say, 1kg at any reasonable acceleration? (read: getting to a few m/s within a month).

and we are talking about radiators. a radiator will basically not function in a vacuum, simple as. there simply isn't nearly enough matter in space for thermal energy to ever transfer in significant amounts. if you wanted to cool off in space, you would have to use very different methods, such as turning that thermal energy intro electromagnetic radiation.

also, please read what you quoted again. heat is *not* being directly transferred from the sun to space to the earth. it is radiation striking the earth and energizing its particles. the space between the earth and sun is still pretty much 0°K.

here, go buy a thermos. put scalding hot food into it, seal it, and let it sit there for a few hours. open it up later. you just witnessed how any object encapsulated in a vacuum (almost encapsulated, in this case) will not cool off. If a "radiator in space" worked, then the thermos would cool off just as quickly as if it were a metal jug.
Livini Naship
Eve Ryuken
#60 - 2011-10-18 06:54:21 UTC