These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: The Retribution of Team Super Friends

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Sariton Xavian
Mercado Mercator Partners and Associates
#701 - 2012-10-13 19:26:24 UTC
The other side of this is what happens to the kill right activation fee if the attempt to kill the bountied person fails?

If the fee remains paid in spite of the attempt failing and the kill right remaining active, this becomes a profitable baiting mechanism. eg. Kill your own alt, have them set an expensive bounty and kill right purchase price on your main, then parade the main around looking like he's easy to kill when he has an escape contingency and farm all the people buying the kill right.

If the fee is returned when the bountied player escapes that closes the exploit loophole, but something still doesn't feel right with that. Maybe kill right activation is paid into a trust instead of to the kill right seller, and the seller only gets money upon the execution of the successful kill and no more than the price they set.

This gets me thinking about how you manage a player who has multiple kill rights on them from different parties. Players interested in buying the rights are automatically presented with the cheapest available kill right for sale? Combining this with the accumulating trust presents interest options for paying out multiple sellers of kill rights on a single successful kill if there have been multiple failed attempts previously. But that begs the question, when someone is selling a kill right would they prefer to get their money for the sale, or would they prefer that the person they have a kill right against burn as many times as possible for their crimes even if it means waiting longer to get money for the sale of their kill right.

My brain hurts.

Also I'm unclear on how to interpret the bounty figure that will display on a given character. does it represent the max possible payout, or will it dynamically adjust based on how much you'll actually get for killing them given the current ship they are flying? The displayed figure apparently incorporates personal, corp and alliance bounty... I assume the corp/alliance bounty assigned to the player will be 1/Nth of the total bounty on the corp and alliance respectively, where N is the number of players in the corp/alliance. Will it be total players or active players?


Finally, bounty for podding should include medical clone cost in the max payout calculation - not just value of implants.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#702 - 2012-10-13 19:42:29 UTC
1) Kill your alt.
2) Put kill right activation fee 100M on yourself by your alt.
3) Fly a shiny ship in hisec with 8x warp stabs.
4) Wait until someone activates kill rights.
5) Collect money on alt.
6) Dock up or cloak with main, wait out 15 minutes.
7) Repeat from step 4.
8) Profit.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#703 - 2012-10-13 19:59:34 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
1) Kill your alt.
2) Put kill right activation fee 100M on yourself by your alt.
3) Fly a shiny ship in hisec with 8x warp stabs.
4) Wait until someone activates kill rights.
5) Collect money on alt.
6) Dock up or cloak with main, wait out 15 minutes.
7) Repeat from step 4.
8) Profit.


I posted in a separate thread about how this bounty system, as a standalone system, is a disaster, but as part of a massive overhaul over 3-4 releases, this bounty system might be a good concept.
I also posted that CCP will be doing mad patching as players find all the huge logical holes in this new system and exploit them.

Thanks for confirming for me.
Forget about testing this on Sisi or Duality.
There are so many moving parts when you integrate the bounty system and crimewatch together, that there is no way limited testing on test servers will find all he logical holes, and CCP is going to have a huge, huge mess on their hands as Eve players do beta testing on TQ Dec 5th.

But hey, I could be totally wrong, and it will all work out.
CCP may pay as much attention to testing of this system as they did with the Inventory UI 6 months ago...oh, wait.
non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
#704 - 2012-10-13 20:00:59 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
did you read the blog?

"This immediately puts a Suspect Flag on the target, thus allowing you and others in your vicinity to attack the target. If the target player is killed while under a Suspect flag, then the kill right is ‘spent’. If the target manages to escape and the Suspect flag timer (15 minutes) lapses, the kill right is still available to be purchased (activated) later on."

as you can see if the person you got the kill right for evades death, then the kill right can be reclaimed again, untill it either expires or the bugger is dead

Think.

Suspect escapes, ships to shuttle, gets killed by friends or alt within ~15 minutes, killright expended.

Also, if the killright is cheap enough just ship to shuttle, activate with alt, blow self up.

The mechanic is terrible and very easily gamed.

It's the "kill right is still available to be purchased (activated) later on" that DaReaper was talking about. When it can happen any time during the next 30 days. How is it easily gamed? Why would blowing up your character in a shuttle change anything?

Abdiel Kavash wrote:

1) Kill your alt.
2) Put kill right activation fee 100M on yourself by your alt.
3) Fly a shiny ship in hisec with 8x warp stabs.
4) Wait until someone activates kill rights.
5) Collect money on alt.
6) Dock up or cloak with main, wait out 15 minutes.
7) Repeat from step 4.
8) Profit.


Now that is an interesting idea. Hopefully the isk actually go to the person who has the kill rights.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#705 - 2012-10-13 20:31:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
non judgement wrote:
It's the "kill right is still available to be purchased (activated) later on" that DaReaper was talking about. When it can happen any time during the next 30 days. How is it easily gamed? Why would blowing up your character in a shuttle change anything?

If the suspect is killed while flagged, the killright goes away.

Rando activates killright, suspect escapes, ships to shuttle, has alt or friend kill them before 15 minutes of flagging is up, killright gets expended.

If you have a killright against you, ship to bait ship with stabs, etc... and wait for some dumb schmuck to activate the killright.

If the killright is free, just have your alt "remove" it.

Literally killrights will be more useless than they are now.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#706 - 2012-10-13 20:40:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Kreed Ellecon wrote:
so as of right now i can go to my overview settings and tag every player with buyable kill rights and select them to be color coded in my overview,,, that option does not exist right now,,,


there's a show pilots with bounty's option (which currently only works in the overview, not in local list - but we're fixing for the expansion) but we want to add an option to show pilots with buyable kill rights in there too, with some specific icon and color (I already mentioned pink, I WANT PINK)

(I had already replied to this question here - does nobody notice my posts??????????)


Hey... I don't know if you guys have acknowledged this issue with the overview...

But the filtering is totally completely "whack". As in, it is totally nonsensical in how you filter things. It shows things based on UNION logic, so it won't show corp members, it will only show CORP members with bounties, if there is a bounty clicked, or for example... it won't show corp members with NEUTRAL standings if you don't have neutral standings checked. Meaning, you can never ONLY see corp members, you can only ever see CORP members AND NEUTRALS.

Does that make sense? Can you please seriously look into that functionality (at least ackowledge it's working as intended or not please?)

Thank you.


yeah we know it's not good Cry it kind of needs massive overhaul

If you're going to overhaul the overview filtering system, kick someone in the behind until they fix the whole "randomly lose standings on cyno/bridge-in". It's a massive pain in the ass.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Sariton Xavian
Mercado Mercator Partners and Associates
#707 - 2012-10-13 21:03:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sariton Xavian
Karl Hobb wrote:

Rando activates killright, suspect escapes, ships to shuttle, has alt or friend kill them before 15 minutes of flagging is up, killright gets expended.


To combat this, the flagging that comes from buying a kill right should expire when the target switches ships. Moves some more weight to the problems of exactly what happens to money spent on purchased kill rights that fail to be executed upon, but that problem already needs to be solved regardless.

Quote:
If you have a killright against you, ship to bait ship with stabs, etc... and wait for some dumb ******* to activate the killright.


I can see it now, standard bounty hunter fit will require a ship with 5 x Scrams lol.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#708 - 2012-10-13 21:05:09 UTC
Sariton Xavian wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:

Rando activates killright, suspect escapes, ships to shuttle, has alt or friend kill them before 15 minutes of flagging is up, killright gets expended.

To combat this, the flagging should expire when they switch ships. Moves some more weight to the problems of exactly what happens to money spent on purchased kill rights that fail to be executed upon, but that problem already needs to be solved regardless.

Reship into noobship, undock, activate killright with alt, shoot noobship with alt. vOv

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#709 - 2012-10-13 21:08:56 UTC
Sariton Xavian wrote:
To combat this, the flagging that comes from buying a kill right should expire when the target switches ships. Moves some more weight to the problems of exactly what happens to money spent on purchased kill rights that fail to be executed upon, but that problem already needs to be solved regardless.

Better idea: CCP should find a better ******* mechanic. The new suspect flagging is already terrible, using it for bounty hunting is downright criminal. Buying killrights starts an LE, transfer killrights to a corp or character through contracts, there are tons of better ways of handling it.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Megan DeMonet
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#710 - 2012-10-13 21:23:36 UTC
Sariton Xavian wrote:
The other side of this is what happens to the kill right activation fee if the attempt to kill the bountied person fails?


If the fee is returned when the bountied player escapes that closes the exploit loophole, but something still doesn't feel right with that. Maybe kill right activation is paid into a trust instead of to the kill right seller, and the seller only gets money upon the execution of the successful kill and no more than the price they set.



so your gonna buy a loaf of bread, but put the money in a trust, and the store only gets paid if you eat the bread? thats really gonna suck for eve market to work like that. guess margin trading is going to work the other way now, you buy a ship buy the seller only gets 50% until you actually undock in it?

A Priest, a Rabbi, and an Imam walk into a bar......
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#711 - 2012-10-13 21:25:11 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Sariton Xavian wrote:
To combat this, the flagging that comes from buying a kill right should expire when the target switches ships. Moves some more weight to the problems of exactly what happens to money spent on purchased kill rights that fail to be executed upon, but that problem already needs to be solved regardless.

Better idea: CCP should find a better ******* mechanic. The new suspect flagging is already terrible, using it for bounty hunting is downright criminal. Buying killrights starts an LE, transfer killrights to a corp or character through contracts, there are tons of better ways of handling it.

Not if what you want to achieve is the complete and utter eradication of hisec "griefing". The system CCP is coming up with is perfect for that purpose.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Sariton Xavian
Mercado Mercator Partners and Associates
#712 - 2012-10-13 21:34:42 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

Reship into noobship, undock, activate killright with alt, shoot noobship with alt. vOv


Yeah, ironic isn't it. Alt bagging your own head is one of the most fundamental problems with the existing system. The new system tries to close or at least minimise that loophole, then just falls prey to it again on the kill rights level.

Maybe kill rights shouldn't be so much sold as rented :P They only expire after 30 days or when you personally execute them same as current. The ones third parties can access are effectively a pay per use means of accessing bounties in highsec. If the mark is in shuttle/noobship nobody will bother because the bounty won't be worth it, same as per the proposed system. But now there is nothing gained by the mark killing himself with an alt, since the right can't be expended that way. He'd just be funding the kill right "leasor" (which again circles back to where that money goes and the potential exploitation of baiting).
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#713 - 2012-10-13 21:39:14 UTC
Sariton Xavian wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:

Reship into noobship, undock, activate killright with alt, shoot noobship with alt. vOv


Yeah, ironic isn't it. Alt bagging your own head is one of the most fundamental problems with the existing system. The new system tries to close or at least minimise that loophole, then just falls prey to it again on the kill rights level.

Maybe kill rights shouldn't be so much sold as rented :P They only expire after 30 days or when you personally execute them same as current. The ones third parties can access are effectively a pay per use means of accessing bounties in highsec. If the mark is in shuttle/noobship nobody will bother because the bounty won't be worth it, same as per the proposed system. But now there is nothing gained by the mark killing himself with an alt, since the right can't be expended that way. He'd just be funding the kill right "leasor" (which again circles back to where that money goes and the potential exploitation of baiting).

Make it into a system where the killright holder can only specifically sell the killright to a bountyhunter or a bountyhunter corp, and the whole exploitation issue goes away.

If the ganker manages to convince the killright holder to sell the killright to someone he himself owns, however, then sucks to be the killright holder, he just got doubletapped. This shouldn't really be a problem once reputable bountyhunters/bountyhunter corps start building up reputations, though.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#714 - 2012-10-13 21:41:48 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Not if what you want to achieve is the complete and utter eradication of hisec "griefing". The system CCP is coming up with is perfect for that purpose.

It's almost as if CCP had that in mind when they designed it.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Iokasti palaiologou
DAMSEL In Duress
#715 - 2012-10-13 21:44:12 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Alexander Renoir wrote:
@ Punkturis please try to answer:
Why do you at CCP think that it would be a good idea to implement a new anonymous tool to be able to harass players, who never ever did criminal acts to others?

DevBlog wrote:

[...] bounties can now be placed on anyone, we’re removing the -1 security standing requirement currently in the bounty system.


Why this? Someone who never played offensive and just wants to play WITHOUT beeing a pirat, ganker or a$$hole and just wants to fly his missions, build ships or mines will now get bountys. WHY?
You state that:

CCP Punkturis wrote:

I don't see how that's different than just ganking him over and over without the bounty?


When there is no diference .. why this option to anonymous griefe a person with a positive security rating with bounty who never did criminal acts?
I never did criminals acts because I never wanted a bounty! Now every player is able to add an bounty to me although I never did harm him/her.

I thought that the bounty system is administrated from CONCORD; the police in EVE. But now even good players will get bounties just for fun. THAT makes no sense.
Keep the option to place bountys to REAL CRIMINALS with negative security rating .. not to someone who never played like an a$$hole!


I believe (I have faith!) that people will mostly be putting bounties on people that annoy them, not just random people in local.. you can be a pretty annoying forum poster but a nice person in game so you might want to place bounty on that guy

I think that if you're a nice person in general people are going to leave you alone

that said, there are of course mean people that'll suicide gank anyone, with or without bounties

but I'll also point out I'm not a game designer, I'm just a brogrammer Big smile



So.... OK if good players are less likely too be ransomed according to you. Now here comes my question. Are people who fell victims to Hulkagedon and the transporter-freighter hunts all people that had it comming? Sorry to say it seems that you are just giving more weapons to destroy the game to players that invest time in the game. People who enjoy security and stay oout of low sec for a reasson.

The fine line that seperates us from the pirates is 0.5 system standing and you seem to **** on that line. Sorry bad call for me and 7-8 years of loyalty to EVE from High sec only.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#716 - 2012-10-13 22:00:43 UTC
Iokasti palaiologou wrote:
So.... OK if good players are less likely too be ransomed according to you. Now here comes my question. Are people who fell victims to Hulkagedon and the transporter-freighter hunts all people that had it comming? Sorry to say it seems that you are just giving more weapons to destroy the game to players that invest time in the game. People who enjoy security and stay oout of low sec for a reasson.

Placing a bounty on someone does not enable anyone to kill them easier, it simply adds a reward for killing them.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#717 - 2012-10-13 22:10:54 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
did you read the blog?

"This immediately puts a Suspect Flag on the target, thus allowing you and others in your vicinity to attack the target. If the target player is killed while under a Suspect flag, then the kill right is ‘spent’. If the target manages to escape and the Suspect flag timer (15 minutes) lapses, the kill right is still available to be purchased (activated) later on."

as you can see if the person you got the kill right for evades death, then the kill right can be reclaimed again, untill it either expires or the bugger is dead

And I'm saying, for the third time now, that the target player could kill themselves in a ship with no value, thus 'spending' the killright, the moment he can switch ships after a failed attempt.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#718 - 2012-10-13 22:11:55 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
did you read the blog?

"This immediately puts a Suspect Flag on the target, thus allowing you and others in your vicinity to attack the target. If the target player is killed while under a Suspect flag, then the kill right is ‘spent’. If the target manages to escape and the Suspect flag timer (15 minutes) lapses, the kill right is still available to be purchased (activated) later on."

as you can see if the person you got the kill right for evades death, then the kill right can be reclaimed again, untill it either expires or the bugger is dead

Think.

Suspect escapes, ships to shuttle, gets killed by friends or alt within ~15 minutes, killright expended.

Also, if the killright is cheap enough just ship to shuttle, activate with alt, blow self up.

The mechanic is terrible and very easily gamed.


I personly think it a killright should become a 2-3 week "war dec" vs the single person or persons who "ganked" you and then this could in turn be traded with someone else, either someone could pay you for them or you could pay them to take it...

this would allow them to hunt the target for the entire duration of the 2-3 weeks even if they kill him... I suggest this because I dislike the suspect idea very very much... if you really wanted something like what you suggested, simply make it "everyone in fleet with the person who activates the killright, can attack the target (LE)"

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#719 - 2012-10-13 22:13:26 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Iokasti palaiologou wrote:
So.... OK if good players are less likely too be ransomed according to you. Now here comes my question. Are people who fell victims to Hulkagedon and the transporter-freighter hunts all people that had it comming? Sorry to say it seems that you are just giving more weapons to destroy the game to players that invest time in the game. People who enjoy security and stay oout of low sec for a reasson.

Placing a bounty on someone does not enable anyone to kill them easier, it simply adds a reward for killing them.


It places a big honking X on their back ,when there was never one before.
Anonymity is a very good defence.
Someone can be flying a mission boat in a 0.6 system, and never ever be looked at twice by a suicide ganker for their entire Eve career. Someone could have paid their money, and never bothered anyone, and never been bothered by anyone.

Now, if the boat they are flying is expensive enough, EVERY ganker, in EVERY system they pass through, will be looking hard at them.

I have moved freighters full of materials destined for capital ship mfg through low sec gates, using a 2nd char in a Rapier and the web tactic.
Now, no longer do I use that Rapier at low sec gate and high sec choke points, but now I have to use it everywhere, in every system. Every system is now the equivalent of low / null. And guess what, now when someone sees you with a bounty, they will give chase and call their buddies. The goons in Uedama don't chase anyone more than 1 system.

Now, gankers will chase any number of systems until the victim's ship is destroyed or docks.
Gris X
xDECOYx
DECOY
#720 - 2012-10-13 22:13:44 UTC
Sariton Xavian wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:

Rando activates killright, suspect escapes, ships to shuttle, has alt or friend kill them before 15 minutes of flagging is up, killright gets expended.


To combat this, the flagging that comes from buying a kill right should expire when the target switches ships. Moves some more weight to the problems of exactly what happens to money spent on purchased kill rights that fail to be executed upon, but that problem already needs to be solved regardless.


The killing by an alt or friend to game the kill right system is certainly possible, but may not be as easy to do as many people make it sounds like.

First, if I am dedicated to acquire a kill right on a quarry from someone else, I will probably wait to do so to be in the best position to maximise my attack's chance of success, especially if I know that the money I spend is not being refunded if my quarry slips away. I will have first scouted the area, know which ship is currently being flown and then decide about acquiring the kill right and activating the suspect flag on the quarry. Even if the quarry always moves around with Warp core stabilizers, I can use HICs for example, and I can scan down his ship unknowingly even before I spend a dime on the available kill right. As I have the initiative, the location of the attack may not lend itself well to find an easy ship replacement for the quarry....
So overall it is all about the plannification and the trigering of the Suspect flag that will be important, and if it is not done properly then I do not see a problem with the Suspect getting away and getting a chance to remove this pesky kill right at minimum loss for them..

Furthermore, the price of the kill right matters too. Someone that would set the price of the kill rights they have gained to 0 is simply saying that they do not care about getting some kind of income for their previous loss. How many people will really do that? only the noobs that will then wise up quickly will not try to make ISK out of their kill rights. At the very least a reasonable player will try to get an amount that reimburse their loss, or even more. So in that situation, the person that will buy this Kill Right will be motivated by either a higher payout in term of bounty (i.e. benefit), or the thrill of the attack worth this much of ISK to them.

I can even see people putting their kill right value even so high so as to keep those for themselves, or make a huge benefit if anybody would still be interested, including the subject of the kill right that would like to remove this Damocles sword from their character.

In all cases, it sounds to me that activating a suspect flag on someone will not be done trivially, and suggesting easy ways to game the system is all fine in theory but may not be that easy in practice (and in all case will be to the benefit of the killright seller i.e. the victim in the first place)

I am still not sold on how it will effectively foster a valid bounty hunter profession in the game, as fundamentally someone can simply not do any action to generate KillRights to never have to worry about being hunted, even if a significant contract/bounty has been put on their head... Like I mentioned in previous posts, I'd like to see an option where a bounty hunter can focus on hunting one target for a fee, even if this target avoids providing kill rights against them.