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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4621 - 2012-10-13 18:52:39 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:

- why should they be OP when there are range windows where they can and will get outdamaged by MEDIUM SIZE LONG RANGE TURRETS?

- .



Probably because inside that window you speak of you can't hit a BC with a MWD. Take your cane, load it up with 720mm + quake and try to hit something.

A Cane with x3 gyros and a Te does 517dps.....however, it also tracks at 0.0376 rad/sec That is terrible, 1200mm arties have similar tracking with enough TEs under them.

.....oh and did I mention optimal is 8km

There is a reason that NO ONE uses the SR T2 ammo for skirmishing above frigates.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4622 - 2012-10-13 18:57:06 UTC
Noemi Nagano wrote:
- why should they be OP when there are range windows where they can and will get outdamaged by MEDIUM SIZE LONG RANGE TURRETS?


Can you show me Harbinger that outdamages Drake at 50+ km?
Or Brutix that outdamages Drake at 50+ km?
Or 720mm Cane that outdamages Drake at 15-20 km?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4623 - 2012-10-13 19:21:42 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Or 720mm Cane that outdamages Drake at 15-20 km?


720mm with quake and 3 Gyros will...if he can hit the drake.
Sang-in Tiers
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#4624 - 2012-10-13 22:24:20 UTC
While you guys are discussing who shall be most OP I'll keep dreaming that one day Amarr will be viable again. Lol
Sycotic Deninard
Basgerin Pirate
#4625 - 2012-10-13 22:27:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Sycotic Deninard
Looking at the 2nd proposed changes to HML's that Fozzie has announced makes me laugh. The range nerf is worse and the applied damage to the HML/HAMS is a joke. Yes I know that the missile will get to its target faster and yes I know that the ship penalties have been removed from the Tech II variants but the nerf to the range, explosion radius and missile velocity makes using HML missiles pointless.

It's become abundantly clear that CCP Fozie doesn't entirely understand the missile system nor the impact that it will have for most of the Caldari race. Like I said earlier in this post, this change will have a direct impact on CCP's subscription base and by the looks of it others have expressed the same thing.

A person that does'nt use his intelligence is no better than an animal that does'nt have any and thus are steaks on the table by choice and consent.
Ajunta Pal
Sith Wannabies Annonymous
#4626 - 2012-10-13 22:40:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ajunta Pal
Sycotic Deninard wrote:
Looking at the 2nd proposed changes to HML's that Fozzie has announced makes me laugh. The range nerf is worse and the applied damage to the HML/HAMS is a joke. Yes I know that the missile will get to its target faster and yes I know that the ship penalties have been removed from the Tech II variants but the nerf to the range, explosion radius and missile velocity makes using HML missiles pointless.

It's become abundantly clear that CCP Fozie doesn't entirely understand the missile system nor the impact that it will have for most of the Caldari race. Like I said earlier in this post, this change will have a direct impact on CCP's subscription base and by the looks of it others have expressed the same thing.



so...looking at the changes to HMLs right now. It's NOT that bad...

using EFT with modded data added in looking at my current MISSION tengu.

I'm down to 597dps from 660dps (w/ navy scourge) and I put on a Rigor 2, so that should more than make up for the explosion radius...I'm down from <130km range to <97km range....

that isn't that bad....on paper. I'm pretty sure its not bad at all in practice

edit:
and oh:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Heavy Missiles
-Base flight time reduced by 35%
-Base velocity increased by 14.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 10% (rounded to closest digit)
-Explosion radius increased by 12%
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.


none of this affects Heavy Assault Missiles, they are not a variant of Heavy Missiles. The only changes on Heavy Assault Missiles is the PG change and the tech2 missile changes

edit2:
fyi ALL my missile skills are at 5
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4627 - 2012-10-13 22:52:48 UTC
Ajunta Pal wrote:

none of this affects Heavy Assault Missiles, they are not a variant of Heavy Missiles. The only changes on Heavy Assault Missiles is the PG change and the tech2 missile changes



Yup finally got around to finishing HAM spec lol
Sycotic Deninard
Basgerin Pirate
#4628 - 2012-10-13 22:59:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Sycotic Deninard
Ajunta Pal wrote:
Sycotic Deninard wrote:
Looking at the 2nd proposed changes to HML's that Fozzie has announced makes me laugh. The range nerf is worse and the applied damage to the HML/HAMS is a joke. Yes I know that the missile will get to its target faster and yes I know that the ship penalties have been removed from the Tech II variants but the nerf to the range, explosion radius and missile velocity makes using HML missiles pointless.

It's become abundantly clear that CCP Fozie doesn't entirely understand the missile system nor the impact that it will have for most of the Caldari race. Like I said earlier in this post, this change will have a direct impact on CCP's subscription base and by the looks of it others have expressed the same thing.



so...looking at the changes to HMLs right now. It's NOT that bad...

using EFT with modded data added in looking at my current MISSION tengu.

I'm down to 597dps from 660dps (w/ navy scourge) and I put on a Rigor 2, so that should more than make up for the explosion radius...I'm down from <130km range to <97km range....

that isn't that bad....on paper. I'm pretty sure its not bad at all in practice

edit:
and oh:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Heavy Missiles
-Base flight time reduced by 35%
-Base velocity increased by 14.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 10% (rounded to closest digit)
-Explosion radius increased by 12%
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.


none of this affects Heavy Assault Missiles, they are not a variant of Heavy Missiles. The only changes on Heavy Assault Missiles is the PG change and the tech2 missile changes



Oh?

Here are the posted numbers for changes to the HAMS.

Inferno Rage Heavy Assault Missile

Old Flight Time: 4.3
New Flight Time: 4

Old Range: 8062.5
New Range: 7500

Old Explosion Velocity: 93
New Explosion Velocity: 87

Old Explosion Radius: 180
New Explosion Radius: 215

A person that does'nt use his intelligence is no better than an animal that does'nt have any and thus are steaks on the table by choice and consent.
Ajunta Pal
Sith Wannabies Annonymous
#4629 - 2012-10-13 23:08:35 UTC
Last I checked Rage were Tech2 Missiles...
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4630 - 2012-10-13 23:20:44 UTC
Sycotic Deninard wrote:
Ajunta Pal wrote:
Sycotic Deninard wrote:
Looking at the 2nd proposed changes to HML's that Fozzie has announced makes me laugh. The range nerf is worse and the applied damage to the HML/HAMS is a joke. Yes I know that the missile will get to its target faster and yes I know that the ship penalties have been removed from the Tech II variants but the nerf to the range, explosion radius and missile velocity makes using HML missiles pointless.

It's become abundantly clear that CCP Fozie doesn't entirely understand the missile system nor the impact that it will have for most of the Caldari race. Like I said earlier in this post, this change will have a direct impact on CCP's subscription base and by the looks of it others have expressed the same thing.



so...looking at the changes to HMLs right now. It's NOT that bad...

using EFT with modded data added in looking at my current MISSION tengu.

I'm down to 597dps from 660dps (w/ navy scourge) and I put on a Rigor 2, so that should more than make up for the explosion radius...I'm down from <130km range to <97km range....

that isn't that bad....on paper. I'm pretty sure its not bad at all in practice

edit:
and oh:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Heavy Missiles
-Base flight time reduced by 35%
-Base velocity increased by 14.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 10% (rounded to closest digit)
-Explosion radius increased by 12%
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.


none of this affects Heavy Assault Missiles, they are not a variant of Heavy Missiles. The only changes on Heavy Assault Missiles is the PG change and the tech2 missile changes



Oh?

Here are the posted numbers for changes to the HAMS.

Inferno Rage Heavy Assault Missile

Old Flight Time: 4.3
New Flight Time: 4

Old Range: 8062.5
New Range: 7500

Old Explosion Velocity: 93
New Explosion Velocity: 87

Old Explosion Radius: 180
New Explosion Radius: 215



and no hull penalties.
Ajunta Pal
Sith Wannabies Annonymous
#4631 - 2012-10-13 23:30:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Ajunta Pal
Don't know what if any hull changes are going to happen. I'll assume that was partly directed at me. Pretty much what I'm saying is that the current changes aren't going to ruin a Tengu - atleast as far as missions go. Also, I'm only checking Tengu, I might check a Drake sometime...and I won't check the other heavy missile hulls, because as has been said, they are broken.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4632 - 2012-10-13 23:59:13 UTC
Ajunta Pal wrote:
Don't know what if any hull changes are going to happen. I'll assume that was partly directed at me. Pretty much what I'm saying is that the current changes aren't going to ruin a Tengu - atleast as far as missions go. Also, I'm only checking Tengu, I might check a Drake sometime...and I won't check the other heavy missile hulls, because as has been said, they are broken.


A three BCS HML Drake fall down to about 395 DPS or so.
PAPULA
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#4633 - 2012-10-14 02:31:17 UTC
It has come to my attention that CCP Fozzie is in Pandemic Legion, that's why and only reason he wants to nerf heavy missiles so -A- can't fight back with tengus.
Same with instalocking hurricanes.

If heavy missiles have been good and working since game came out it is really stupid to change them now.
This only shows that Pandemic Legion wants to change game mechanics by putting their own people into CCP.

CCP Fozzie i hope you don't change heavy missiles attributes, if you do whole eve will know that PL is cheating for changing game mechanics.


Twisted
Lili Lu
#4634 - 2012-10-14 05:14:15 UTC
PAPULA wrote:
some stuff

Not sure if serious, because if serious, pretty darn sad, but not unexpected. I'd rather think this was a very convincing tongue in cheek post. Straight
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#4635 - 2012-10-14 05:53:03 UTC
PAPULA wrote:
It has come to my attention that CCP Fozzie is in Pandemic Legion, that's why and only reason he wants to nerf heavy missiles so -A- can't fight back with tengus.
Same with instalocking hurricanes.

If heavy missiles have been good and working since game came out it is really stupid to change them now.
This only shows that Pandemic Legion wants to change game mechanics by putting their own people into CCP.

CCP Fozzie i hope you don't change heavy missiles attributes, if you do whole eve will know that PL is cheating for changing game mechanics.


Twisted



Because PL don't have working doctrines to counter Tengus Roll

I still think that the other medium LR weapons should be brought up to the standard of HMLs rather than seeing HMLs degraded to the level of barely used weapon classes, but accusing someone of gross unprofesionalism just because you've come to rely on a single fleet doctrine...

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4636 - 2012-10-14 06:47:21 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
PAPULA wrote:
It has come to my attention that CCP Fozzie is in Pandemic Legion, that's why and only reason he wants to nerf heavy missiles so -A- can't fight back with tengus.
Same with instalocking hurricanes.

If heavy missiles have been good and working since game came out it is really stupid to change them now.
This only shows that Pandemic Legion wants to change game mechanics by putting their own people into CCP.

CCP Fozzie i hope you don't change heavy missiles attributes, if you do whole eve will know that PL is cheating for changing game mechanics.


Twisted



Because PL don't have working doctrines to counter Tengus Roll

I still think that the other medium LR weapons should be brought up to the standard of HMLs rather than seeing HMLs degraded to the level of barely used weapon classes, but accusing someone of gross unprofesionalism just because you've come to rely on a single fleet doctrine...


I proposed something like that too on an earlier page - give medium LR turrets a bit more of their DPS (which are on paper higher with high damage faction ammo than HML are) on longer ranges. Could be done with two ways or combination of both, either change lr turret ammo so its a bit better in its stats or introduce super fast flying t2 long range missiles which will have low DPS, but can contribute better in sniper fights and would be much more in line with turrets (which is what Fozzie claimed he wanted to do - bring things more in line ..). Basically it still stands: if you ruin the Drake for medium or longer ranges there will be no reason to fly the only working Caldari missile PvP hull in med or large hull anymore. Because in shorter ranges all of its weaks compared to the other battlecruisers count so much more, so for example the smaller drone bay ...
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4637 - 2012-10-14 07:10:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Because in shorter ranges all of its weaks compared to the other battlecruisers count so much more, so for example the smaller drone bay ...


Drake has 25 m3 drone bay. That's enough for one flight of light scout drones.
Caldari has never been "drone race".

And why should Caldari ships have bigger drone bays than Amarr or Gallente ships?
Noemi Nagano
Perkone
Caldari State
#4638 - 2012-10-14 08:41:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Noemi Nagano
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Noemi Nagano wrote:
Because in shorter ranges all of its weaks compared to the other battlecruisers count so much more, so for example the smaller drone bay ...


Drake has 25 m3 drone bay. That's enough for one flight of light scout drones.
Caldari has never been "drone race".

And why should Caldari ships have bigger drone bays than Amarr or Gallente ships?


No one said they should. You should really learn to read and not to see things which are not there.

When you compare short range fighing abilities of BCs you have to count the drone capacity and bandwith too, a Harbinger for example could fit a flight of lights AND a flight of light ECM drones .. or all medium ECM or all medium combat .. this is a big advantage over a Drake. So if you just look at primary weapons DPS and EHP of the ship you dont get whats going on in game, and for short range this is even more so.

If you dont understand this concept then just go on to ask. But stop to imply things into my statements which I never said.

Btw, talking about credibility .. where is *your* actual combat record?
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4639 - 2012-10-14 09:16:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Noemi Nagano wrote:
No one said they should. You should really learn to read and not to see things which are not there.

When you compare short range fighing abilities of BCs you have to count the drone capacity and bandwith too, a Harbinger for example could fit a flight of lights AND a flight of light ECM drones .. or all medium ECM or all medium combat .. this is a big advantage over a Drake. So if you just look at primary weapons DPS and EHP of the ship you dont get whats going on in game, and for short range this is even more so.

If you dont understand this concept then just go on to ask. But stop to imply things into my statements which I never said.

Btw, talking about credibility .. where is *your* actual combat record?


Harbinger does 343 dps at 70 km.
Drake does 440 dps at 110+ km. (143km, targeting range 120km)

Harbinger does 343+158 dps at 60 km.
Drake does 440+99 dps at 60 km.

Harbinger has 45,4k EHP.
Drake has 58,4k EHP.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4640 - 2012-10-14 09:19:30 UTC
Ajunta Pal wrote:
The only changes on Heavy Assault Missiles is the PG change and the tech2 missile changes



Guided Missile Precision.