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Dev blog: Stay on Target!

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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#681 - 2012-10-13 14:24:00 UTC
Soden Rah wrote:
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
A hard concept for newer players to figure out is transversal...
And even after you get a basic understanding of it you still have to manipulate your overview settings and stare at numbers to make sure you get max dps...

how about you have some sort of graphic for a target that when thier transversal is low it then displays graphic A (being the max dps graphic)
which would be an easy intuitive way to know that you should start shooting.

During the Q&A part of the art presentation at Fanfest, someone suggested the implementation of a line tracing from your ship's turrets to your target that could change color to indicate ideal transversal velocities. Perhaps a line isn't the best mechanism to use here. Regardless, I think it would be great if the HUD used something that looks nice and is easy to read for such information. Less reliance on the overview menu is a good thing here.




However a very quick and simple update to the overview would be to colour angualr velocity readouts based on the percent damage reduction due to tracking.

So a target with an angular velocity which results in less than 10% reduction in damage would be green.
A target with an angualr velocity which results in more than 90% reduction in damage would be deep red.
Inbetween it would go from green to red (via yellow and orange) and objects with 0 tracking penulty they would be blue.

This requires no extra server load as it already tells the client the angualr velocity and your tracking speed.

You could do something similar with range for reductions due to falloff, and even sig radius.

Then you could imediately tell from the overview which ships are best to shoot at based on tracking speeds and range.


while i do like the idea of a colour coded image...
i am not sure having it in the overview would be optimal as CCP stated they want to move away from EVE Spreadsheets... so for me anything to get away from having the bulk of the screen being numbers...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Kabaos
Fulgur lumene
#682 - 2012-10-13 14:24:33 UTC
Soden Rah
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#683 - 2012-10-13 14:31:35 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Soden Rah wrote:
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
A hard concept for newer players to figure out is transversal...
And even after you get a basic understanding of it you still have to manipulate your overview settings and stare at numbers to make sure you get max dps...

how about you have some sort of graphic for a target that when thier transversal is low it then displays graphic A (being the max dps graphic)
which would be an easy intuitive way to know that you should start shooting.

During the Q&A part of the art presentation at Fanfest, someone suggested the implementation of a line tracing from your ship's turrets to your target that could change color to indicate ideal transversal velocities. Perhaps a line isn't the best mechanism to use here. Regardless, I think it would be great if the HUD used something that looks nice and is easy to read for such information. Less reliance on the overview menu is a good thing here.




However a very quick and simple update to the overview would be to colour angualr velocity readouts based on the percent damage reduction due to tracking.

So a target with an angular velocity which results in less than 10% reduction in damage would be green.
A target with an angualr velocity which results in more than 90% reduction in damage would be deep red.
Inbetween it would go from green to red (via yellow and orange) and objects with 0 tracking penulty they would be blue.

This requires no extra server load as it already tells the client the angualr velocity and your tracking speed.

You could do something similar with range for reductions due to falloff, and even sig radius.

Then you could imediately tell from the overview which ships are best to shoot at based on tracking speeds and range.


while i do like the idea of a colour coded image...
i am not sure having it in the overview would be optimal as CCP stated they want to move away from EVE Spreadsheets... so for me anything to get away from having the bulk of the screen being numbers...


True, but this is a minor tweak of a current feature that would be relatively quick and cheep to implement.
Wheras removing the overview for something better would be a massive undertaking that they are not about to do.

This wasn't supposed to be an ultimate best solution to the problem but a quick fix that would make what we currently have better.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#684 - 2012-10-13 14:51:33 UTC
Soden Rah wrote:

True, but this is a minor tweak of a current feature that would be relatively quick and cheep to implement.
Wheras removing the overview for something better would be a massive undertaking that they are not about to do.

This wasn't supposed to be an ultimate best solution to the problem but a quick fix that would make what we currently have better.


not sure if i had said get rid of the overview...

i was mearly suggesting an alternative to having to expand the overview to include angluar velocity...

Hell i would do both... make it a colour coded thing for the overview and also make it a graphic for targeted ships...

also i would make both options be be toggled so if you like you can disable them...

example they showed a WIP of three images where you target then optimal range then actual fire on target... i would like to see a 4th where its a max dps potential image...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Luka Datitties
Star-Gate Command
#685 - 2012-10-13 15:27:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Luka Datitties
MeBiatch wrote:
Soden Rah wrote:

True, but this is a minor tweak of a current feature that would be relatively quick and cheep to implement.
Wheras removing the overview for something better would be a massive undertaking that they are not about to do.

This wasn't supposed to be an ultimate best solution to the problem but a quick fix that would make what we currently have better.


not sure if i had said get rid of the overview...

i was mearly suggesting an alternative to having to expand the overview to include angluar velocity...

Hell i would do both... make it a colour coded thing for the overview and also make it a graphic for targeted ships...

also i would make both options be be toggled so if you like you can disable them...

example they showed a WIP of three images where you target then optimal range then actual fire on target... i would like to see a 4th where its a max dps potential image...


The overview already has Velocity, Radial Velocity, Transversal Velocity and Angular Velocity. You just have to enable them.
I think what he's saying is that new players don't know what those changing numbers mean right away, so if for example transversal velocity of half your targets was so high that your tracking would be compromised, change the color of the number in that column red. If it is stationary, make it blue. For all other numbers in between combine those colors in respect to how much of a damage penalty your guns will take due to target transversal/angular/whatever velocity. This would allow a newer player to more successfully chose targets based on what he can actually hit. Perhaps this can be expanded to include gun size, so if he's in a battle ship, frigs would be mostly red since you can't hit frigs very easily with a gun sig radius of 400 vs a ship sig radius of around 30. <- unless said frig is at your optimal and stationary... Then he would be a blue target!

This will be all client side calculations and you can totally disable it already. It is something that could be done right away with little effort (compared to many things anyway) and could be iterated on later with better visual feedback like icons and such.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#686 - 2012-10-13 15:31:15 UTC
Luka Datitties wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Soden Rah wrote:

True, but this is a minor tweak of a current feature that would be relatively quick and cheep to implement.
Wheras removing the overview for something better would be a massive undertaking that they are not about to do.

This wasn't supposed to be an ultimate best solution to the problem but a quick fix that would make what we currently have better.


not sure if i had said get rid of the overview...

i was mearly suggesting an alternative to having to expand the overview to include angluar velocity...

Hell i would do both... make it a colour coded thing for the overview and also make it a graphic for targeted ships...

also i would make both options be be toggled so if you like you can disable them...

example they showed a WIP of three images where you target then optimal range then actual fire on target... i would like to see a 4th where its a max dps potential image...


The overview already has Velocity, Radial Velocity, Transversal Velocity and Angular Velocity. You just have to enable them.
I think what he's saying is that new players don't know what those changing numbers mean right away, so if for example transversal velocity of half your targets was so high that your tracking would be compromised, change the color of the number in that column red. If it is stationary, make it blue. For all other numbers in between combine those colors in respect to how much of a damage penalty your guns will take due to target transversal/angular/whatever velocity.

This will be all client side calculations and you can totally disable it already. It is something that could be done right away with little effort (compared to many things anyway) and could be iterated on later with better visual feedback like icons and such.



ok i am convinced... now go do it CCP!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Luka Datitties
Star-Gate Command
#687 - 2012-10-13 15:41:19 UTC
Soden Rah wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
This whole feature is an utter waste of development time.
Why alter the targeting UI at all?

You could have spent the time on things like, I dunno...the inventory UI abomination, thinking through and making changes to the broken moon goo mechanic....you know, trivial things like that.

But no, you have to create pretty baubles to distract the players from what is really wrong with the game.


There is no dislike button for me to press... but if there were I would currently be pressing it.


If there was a dislike button, Devs and others could bypass the posts that have a 2:1 dislike to like ratio easily and not waste their time reading their hurtful venom. Perhaps such posts could be a few shades darker than a normal post? Perhaps posts that receive the top 10 amount of likes in a thread get linked to the top OR make a "smart button" that will open a new window and show only those top 10 posts. This would allow the players to filter through all the ideas, pick out/support the good ones, and repress the bad ones, thus saving the Devs time and effort. I think it would be a pretty good bullshit filter for people who don't want to read 35 pages of posts, yet still benefit from the good ideas on the table in a fraction of the time.
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#688 - 2012-10-13 15:44:50 UTC
CCP Sisyphus wrote:
But on the plus side, there are some real gold nuggets of feedback here! Which makes me feel like coming to you more often at the concept stage :)

I think it would be wonderful if more and more devs felt this way. Hopefully the feedback from this thread, and its general tone, will encourage more such efforts in the future.

After all, you can catch more devs with honey than with vinegar.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Agent Xena
Doomheim
#689 - 2012-10-13 16:31:48 UTC
The new target circles look good but their "direction" makes absolutely no sense. They should all decrease in a circle, starting with shields, right to left, then armor in the same direction, then hull, left to right. If will be much easier to follow that way instead of jumping and changing direction on you.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#690 - 2012-10-13 16:34:21 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
CCP Sisyphus wrote:
But on the plus side, there are some real gold nuggets of feedback here! Which makes me feel like coming to you more often at the concept stage :)

I think it would be wonderful if more and more devs felt this way. Hopefully the feedback from this thread, and its general tone, will encourage more such efforts in the future.

After all, you can catch more devs with honey than with vinegar.



that true i love 99% of the devs...

they are awesome hard working peeps who really care about this game...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
mkint
#691 - 2012-10-13 16:39:07 UTC
CCP Sisyphus wrote:
As Karkur said - we're taking this stuff in, but that doesn't mean we're actually going to do it all.. (that would be very confusing.)

Please be nice, as unhappy Karkur makes everyone unhappy :(

But on the plus side, there are some real gold nuggets of feedback here! Which makes me feel like coming to you more often at the concept stage :)

I think mostly, especially early in the thread, the dev response to things players don't like is to defend it. It feels dismissive. Granted there has been a change in tone, but we still have no idea if any of the devs are 'on our side,' which is what we want..
Someone on the team who not only understands but agrees with us, and will argue in favor of what we view as the logical issues.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Dirael Papier
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#692 - 2012-10-13 16:46:26 UTC
Luka Datitties wrote:
If there was a dislike button, Devs and others could bypass the posts that have a 2:1 dislike to like ratio easily and not waste their time reading their hurtful venom. Perhaps such posts could be a few shades darker than a normal post? Perhaps posts that receive the top 10 amount of likes in a thread get linked to the top OR make a "smart button" that will open a new window and show only those top 10 posts. This would allow the players to filter through all the ideas, pick out/support the good ones, and repress the bad ones, thus saving the Devs time and effort. I think it would be a pretty good bullshit filter for people who don't want to read 35 pages of posts, yet still benefit from the good ideas on the table in a fraction of the time.

If dislikes were used by devs to skip posts then I could see one of two things happening.

Goons would go through and dislike every post to drop it below that ratio so that the devs could work in peace without disturbances from the unwashed masses.

Or (more likely scenario I would think) goons would go through and like every post that is being disliked to bring it well above the cutoff point, since everyone's voice should be heard. Rendering the dislike system for that specific purpose useless.


Now, that's not saying we shouldn't have dislikes (not saying we should either. Personally I don't care either way) just that we can't base whether or not the devs will read a post on something that can be so easily manipulated.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#693 - 2012-10-13 16:56:10 UTC
one more thing from me: do we really need that big pictures for targeted ships?

I would absolutely love to have the functionality of the pitbull unitframes addon from the other game. especially the dog tags part. less clutter, more information.

P. S. : clockwise please!
ACESsiggy
Deaths Consortium
#694 - 2012-10-13 17:20:17 UTC
Agree that the damage notifications need massive improvements but the circle shield/armor/structure read out I'm not digging.

“The open-minded see the truth in different things: the narrow-minded see only the differences.”
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#695 - 2012-10-13 17:30:31 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:


On a more personal note it just makes me sad when people act like this. Fozzie is indeed doing a great job, but so is a whole lot of other people I work with. We come here to talk to you guys but it's like your damned if you do and damned if you don't.... and the more people that act like that, the more likely is that we will just not bother and just go watch TV or something.



Well. This is the work of a lot of people in "public" office. They take a lot of different opinions on what they are doing, and some can be very nasty. You should be proud of what you do for doing it, and not let one person discourage the valuable work of others.

Don't let 2 bad notes in a song ruin the whole song. :)

Where I am.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#696 - 2012-10-13 17:32:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
mkint wrote:
CCP Sisyphus wrote:
As Karkur said - we're taking this stuff in, but that doesn't mean we're actually going to do it all.. (that would be very confusing.)

Please be nice, as unhappy Karkur makes everyone unhappy :(

But on the plus side, there are some real gold nuggets of feedback here! Which makes me feel like coming to you more often at the concept stage :)

I think mostly, especially early in the thread, the dev response to things players don't like is to defend it. It feels dismissive. Granted there has been a change in tone, but we still have no idea if any of the devs are 'on our side,' which is what we want..
Someone on the team who not only understands but agrees with us, and will argue in favor of what we view as the logical issues.



I agree with this sentiment.

You are having a dialogue with a "large" group of people "throwing" things at you.

When you move immediately into a "Defensive" position, that's a "Weak" position to take. Your initial interaction is important to make it sound "interactive" and not "Defensive".

Ask questions about why we experience things, and then we have a dialogue and we can settle into the communication, and then you can defend your position rather than immediately feeling like you have to counter what we are saying.

Where I am.
Luka Datitties
Star-Gate Command
#697 - 2012-10-13 17:37:19 UTC
Dirael Papier wrote:
Luka Datitties wrote:
If there was a dislike button, Devs and others could bypass the posts that have a 2:1 dislike to like ratio easily and not waste their time reading their hurtful venom. Perhaps such posts could be a few shades darker than a normal post? Perhaps posts that receive the top 10 amount of likes in a thread get linked to the top OR make a "smart button" that will open a new window and show only those top 10 posts. This would allow the players to filter through all the ideas, pick out/support the good ones, and repress the bad ones, thus saving the Devs time and effort. I think it would be a pretty good bullshit filter for people who don't want to read 35 pages of posts, yet still benefit from the good ideas on the table in a fraction of the time.

If dislikes were used by devs to skip posts then I could see one of two things happening.

Goons would go through and dislike every post to drop it below that ratio so that the devs could work in peace without disturbances from the unwashed masses.

Or (more likely scenario I would think) goons would go through and like every post that is being disliked to bring it well above the cutoff point, since everyone's voice should be heard. Rendering the dislike system for that specific purpose useless.


Now, that's not saying we shouldn't have dislikes (not saying we should either. Personally I don't care either way) just that we can't base whether or not the devs will read a post on something that can be so easily manipulated.



So what? Let the "goons" spend all sorts of time manipulating forums. How much fun could this possibly be? Anything that forces goons to have less fun and be more like a job they hate I'm all for.

Besides, it's not as though an idea that receives a lot of attention is immediately carved in the CCP road map stone.
Maybe add a block feature to the forums too, though that really should not be needed.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#698 - 2012-10-13 17:40:20 UTC
Luka Datitties wrote:
Maybe add a block feature to the forums too, though that really should not be needed.



You mean like the 'hide posts' option that shows up when you click the small yellow triangle next to a person's name?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
cBOLTSON
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#699 - 2012-10-13 18:19:07 UTC
I'm looking forwards to this. It will take a bit of getting used to I think but its certainly better to look at visually.

The good old days of Unreal Tournament, fragging and sniping on Facing Worlds, listening to Foregone Destruction.......
Shemmy
The Order Of Entropy
#700 - 2012-10-13 18:43:49 UTC
Several people are saying that transversal / angular velocity / speed need to be visible on the target graphics.

Maybe CCP can add a feature where your ship automatically approaches optimal in the most effective way WRT transversal, and maybe then they could turn the guns on automatically too.

Oh and they could autopilot your alt's hulk into a belt and mine some veld for you while you're at it.

Sheesh. Roll