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Dev blog: The Retribution of Team Super Friends

First post First post
Author
Kabaos
Fulgur lumene
#681 - 2012-10-13 14:22:37 UTC
Anton Zuber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#682 - 2012-10-13 14:23:04 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Kreed Ellecon wrote:
so as of right now i can go to my overview settings and tag every player with buyable kill rights and select them to be color coded in my overview,,, that option does not exist right now,,,


there's a show pilots with bounty's option (which currently only works in the overview, not in local list - but we're fixing for the expansion) but we want to add an option to show pilots with buyable kill rights in there too, with some specific icon and color (I already mentioned pink, I WANT PINK)

(I had already replied to this question here - does nobody notice my posts??????????)


Hey... I don't know if you guys have acknowledged this issue with the overview...

But the filtering is totally completely "whack". As in, it is totally nonsensical in how you filter things. It shows things based on UNION logic, so it won't show corp members, it will only show CORP members with bounties, if there is a bounty clicked, or for example... it won't show corp members with NEUTRAL standings if you don't have neutral standings checked. Meaning, you can never ONLY see corp members, you can only ever see CORP members AND NEUTRALS.

Does that make sense? Can you please seriously look into that functionality (at least ackowledge it's working as intended or not please?)

Thank you.


yeah we know it's not good Cry it kind of needs massive overhaul


I assume you mean the overview system in general? If so I agree wholeheartedly. Admittedly, it actually does work pretty well, but it does have some rough areas that could use a good polishing up.

My personal gripe there is tags/backgrounds. Who decided that they had to use the same colors? It's counter intuitive, and downright annoying to me because I like to resort both lists differently and use them to show me that second layer of information about a target, but because I'm so limited on colors there, that doesn't work as well as I would like.

Another is the local list for sure. Many players use local as an early warning system. They like to shove that sucker off to the left side of the screen hiding the chat, and just use it as a list of names. But it's not nearly as functional as the overview window so it is limited, and largely worthless really in systems with too many people in them because the list goes off the bottom of the screen and gains a scroll bar. Too many people? forget about it, may as well close the thing.

But anyhow. That, is a debate for another thread. Overhauling the Overview, is a subject all in itself.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#683 - 2012-10-13 14:35:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
I like this way much more than being able to derp around a space wreck on foot and retrieve 3x Reinforced Metal Scrap for it.

I would really really love personalized bounty payouts: as a way of rewarding your own alliance members for killing alliance X. (But randoms killing X elsewhere won't be able to leech from the payments.)

[edit] I did some back of the envelope math on this, and if this was implemented properly it could serve as a really useful and simple tool to reward people for active participation in fleets.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#684 - 2012-10-13 15:02:47 UTC
I've given the killright system some further thought:

I believe the concept of making the kill-right activation work based on suspect timers is faulty. It allows an easy and consequence-less escape from kill-rights upon the first failed attempt on your ship.

ArrowAny time someone has their killrights activated and can escape, they need only switch to an inexpensive ship such as a rookie ship or a shuttle and kill it themselves, thus 'fulfilling' the killrights and more or less defeating the system.

I feel like the system will be of very little use without a restriction on who can actually fulfill the killrights: instead of using a suspect timer the system should use the same system as the dueling system you plan to implement, generating a limited engagement (albeit a non-consensual one) between the pilot that activated the killrights and the target. If someone who did not specifically buy or own the killrights lays the final blow it should not invalidate the killrights.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

Jiska Ensa
Estrale Frontiers
#685 - 2012-10-13 15:21:15 UTC
What does this mean for Jump Freighters? With current prices, with a 20% payout, it is worth 1.4 billion to kill a JF. I haven't run the math regarding the cost to suicide gank one, but does that mean that even empty JF's will be worth ganking, if the pilot's alliance/corp/self has a large enough bounty? Or will there be some kind of consideration for large, expensive, defenceless ships? Like a lower payout?
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#686 - 2012-10-13 15:46:25 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
I like this way much more than being able to derp around a space wreck on foot and retrieve 3x Reinforced Metal Scrap for it.

I would really really love personalized bounty payouts: as a way of rewarding your own alliance members for killing alliance X. (But randoms killing X elsewhere won't be able to leech from the payments.)

[edit] I did some back of the envelope math on this, and if this was implemented properly it could serve as a really useful and simple tool to reward people for active participation in fleets.


From what I've read in the dev posts, that iteration is coming "at some future date". What you're describing is not a "public bounty" but a private pay-for-performance PvP contract which will be a different system. I described something similar back in post #190.

Public bounties have to have a fixed percentage of loss value as payout, that percentage needs to be low (to avoid most exploits, such as -1% energy implants), because of the way a public bounty pool will work.

(Private bounty contracts should have no such restrictions on min/max payout or percentage of loss value.)
Jing Xin
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#687 - 2012-10-13 16:07:25 UTC
On modules:
Postpone MJD; look into Reactive Armor Hardener, make it viable to fit on sub-capitals.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#688 - 2012-10-13 16:07:47 UTC
How about an overview option to show folks with bounties ... this should be configurable by amount. If I want to only show people with a 100M ISK bounty or more, for instance. Use the colour blue, by default.

It being configurable is important, otherwise entire corporations will put 1 ISK bounties on all their members to muck up overview entries.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#689 - 2012-10-13 16:23:25 UTC
Anton Zuber wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Megan DeMonet wrote:
why should you get a warning when KR is activated? what makes a ganker, or a lowsec pvp hunter so special they deserve more warning than the miner they just smacked down, and usually not for profit or personal reasons, but just beacuse they think its fun to greif. Maybe the lowsec hunter with 70 mil SP hunting down the noob in the lowsec belt that was ratting. Why, why, why should you get any warning. Especially if said target actually has skills and came looking for you. you would get no warning then whould you, you just undock in your crappy BC and a vidi ***** slaps you.

Why cant someon in a vindi have the same rights, buy all accounts your a criminal in some for, hell we all are. WE PLAY EVE!


If buying the kill rights just grants a limited engagement between the buyer and the target, then I'm perfectly fine with no warning. My problem is that it's a troll button to make people go suspect to all of eve. The scale of that is far greater than a gank, especially since the person paying for the kill right doesn't even have to get involved.


That's actually a very good point. I was concerned about kill rights myself, partly because it's unclear to me how it works. But I was thinking more on the side of how they get added in the first place. Can they always buy that? are there things i have to do first? It was not entirely clear to me how that all works yet, and it could be really bad.

But you pointed out a more specific scenario which is quite scary all in itself. Let me illustrate how that could play out.

Hypothetical Scenario
Kill rights granted in some random now forgotten about encounter. An alt of your victim is now following you around in a covert just kind of watching you to see where you go, using locator agents occasionally when he loses you. He waits patiently until you come to a nice hub system (Jita, Dodixie, Hex, etc.) and go to dock. He now activates your kill rights and just to be sure, scrambles you real quick. You are now in PvP, you can't dock, you can't warp and you are now surrounded by 50+ random players who's screens just lit up with a juicy red target market.

Have a nice day.

She has a point. That's worlds apart from a suicide gank. That's just HARSH.


The PvP flag does NOT disable docking... only the Weapons flag does that...

So, unless that person is idiotic enough to shoot back at you, he'll be able to dock!
Agent Xena
Doomheim
#690 - 2012-10-13 16:29:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Agent Xena
Wrong thread.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#691 - 2012-10-13 16:29:38 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
I've given the killright system some further thought:

I believe the concept of making the kill-right activation work based on suspect timers is faulty. It allows an easy and consequence-less escape from kill-rights upon the first failed attempt on your ship.

ArrowAny time someone has their killrights activated and can escape, they need only switch to an inexpensive ship such as a rookie ship or a shuttle and kill it themselves, thus 'fulfilling' the killrights and more or less defeating the system.

I feel like the system will be of very little use without a restriction on who can actually fulfill the killrights: instead of using a suspect timer the system should use the same system as the dueling system you plan to implement, generating a limited engagement (albeit a non-consensual one) between the pilot that activated the killrights and the target. If someone who did not specifically buy or own the killrights lays the final blow it should not invalidate the killrights.


The first victim, who received the killrights, can set any price on the killrights they like....

So, if they set it really cheap (or to zero)... then you can have an alt activate your killrights while your in a frigate and get rid of them... if you really want to...

Alternatively, the victim can set the killrights to a healthy amount (10-30m), and then, when the killrights are activated, the victim gets a decent payout... It doesn't matter what ship you lose a ship or not, the victim is getting some recompense for your crime...

The suspect timer is ingenious, as it allows everyone to gank the target.... The target didn't get killrights on them for fighting fair, so why should they get a fair fight?
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#692 - 2012-10-13 16:31:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyla Skin
Alexander Renoir wrote:


Why this? Someone who never played offensive and just wants to play WITHOUT beeing a pirat, ganker or a$$hole and just wants to fly his missions, build ships or mines will now get bountys. WHY?
You state that:

CCP Punkturis wrote:

I don't see how that's different than just ganking him over and over without the bounty?


When there is no diference .. why this option to anonymous griefe a person with a positive security rating with bounty who never did criminal acts?
I never did criminals acts because I never wanted a bounty! Now every player is able to add an bounty to me although I never did harm him/her.

I thought that the bounty system is administrated from CONCORD; the police in EVE. But now even good players will get bounties just for fun. THAT makes no sense.


It makes sense if you'd know that security status has absolutely no bearing whatsoever whether that person is a 'bad person'. Theres more criminals than can be counted who have high security status. Could be a corp thief, betrayer, spy, AWOXer or something similar. None of these actions cause security rating loss, or at least enough to drop them to concord criminal status.

Take for example that disgruntled director who defected to Goons and was behind the breaking of band of brothers alliance. Did he do something to lose security status(lol)?

I dont see this as a method to grief you, I see it as a method for you to get back on the guy who griefed you.

The security rating/standings restrictions we have currently on bounties MUST go away for proper justice to be served in many cases. The bounty system may not be perfect, but at least it offers some support for victims to hire bounty hunters (or whoever) to deal out justice where they themselves are incapable. This is how I see this, and it can't come soon enough. Cool

Now if only there was a legal way to attack the bounties without killrights involved but I guess we can't have everything. Can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs and so on. I do kind of hope that the onetime payout would be high enough to make suicideganking feasible in the very high-profile cases like I mentioned above.

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies

Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#693 - 2012-10-13 17:31:10 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
The first victim, who received the killrights, can set any price on the killrights they like....

So, if they set it really cheap (or to zero)... then you can have an alt activate your killrights while your in a frigate and get rid of them... if you really want to...

Alternatively, the victim can set the killrights to a healthy amount (10-30m), and then, when the killrights are activated, the victim gets a decent payout... It doesn't matter what ship you lose a ship or not, the victim is getting some recompense for your crime...

The suspect timer is ingenious, as it allows everyone to gank the target.... The target didn't get killrights on them for fighting fair, so why should they get a fair fight?

It's not the fact that killrights allow for gangbanging that bothers me. It's the fact that ANY failed attempt to fulfill the killright, no matter by whom, gives the target of the killright an free opportunity to clear his killrights virtually for free. It won't matter whether it's the guy himself paying for it or someone else misguided, chances of the killrights still being around after the first activation are slim unless the person actually WANTS to have killrights on his head.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#694 - 2012-10-13 18:09:37 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
How about an overview option to show folks with bounties ... this should be configurable by amount. If I want to only show people with a 100M ISK bounty or more, for instance. Use the colour blue, by default.

It being configurable is important, otherwise entire corporations will put 1 ISK bounties on all their members to muck up overview entries.


there is already such an option, it's off by default

but it's not configurable

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis

J Kunjeh
#695 - 2012-10-13 18:26:50 UTC
So, I wonder who will be the first to put a bounty on Chribba? Twisted

"The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5) 

DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#696 - 2012-10-13 18:27:20 UTC
Salpad wrote:
Natalie Cerulean wrote:
While part of me was hoping for a system in which bounties meant that someone could be shot anywhere I suppose this is a good way to protect the "pure" carebears while at the same time the "buyable" kill rights mean that even if they are just a weekend warrior in terms of pvp they can still be attacked in high sec.


Keep in mind, if somebody puts a bounty on old Salpad the Carebear (with no good cause for doing so), and it meant I'm killable in high-esc, then I flat out wouldn't be able to undock in anything except shuttles (and with a jump clone with no implants). It would severely cramp my style, and I'd strongly be tempted to quit playing forever, not because it's unfair, but because a kill-rights-in-high-sec on me bounty would make the game completely unplayable for me.

And I'm not some immature rage-quitter. I'm simply saying, if I become unable to undock, then I will unsubscribe and never come back.



Though yes someone can set a bounty on you, like GSF could use said system to do payouts for hulkageddon. Anyone who kills you in HS will generate a kill right, so if say someone is trying to grief you with a bounty, then anyone that goes to claim it from you in HS you can then set a bounty on them and sell your kill rights to dish it right back. Its not like you will be hunted, cause people who will be going after bounties, will prolly pick and chose there targets based off of kill rights or some moral code. I.E. when i was anti pirate i only hunted down known pirates in my area.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#697 - 2012-10-13 18:28:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Poetic Stanziel
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
How about an overview option to show folks with bounties ... this should be configurable by amount. If I want to only show people with a 100M ISK bounty or more, for instance. Use the colour blue, by default.

It being configurable is important, otherwise entire corporations will put 1 ISK bounties on all their members to muck up overview entries.


there is already such an option, it's off by default

but it's not configurable
Yeah. CCP Paradox (I think), pointed that out on Twitter.

Ignore the suggestion. The ability to configure it is probably more effort than it is worth.

But thanks for the reply, though. Appreciated.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#698 - 2012-10-13 18:31:10 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
The first victim, who received the killrights, can set any price on the killrights they like....

So, if they set it really cheap (or to zero)... then you can have an alt activate your killrights while your in a frigate and get rid of them... if you really want to...

Alternatively, the victim can set the killrights to a healthy amount (10-30m), and then, when the killrights are activated, the victim gets a decent payout... It doesn't matter what ship you lose a ship or not, the victim is getting some recompense for your crime...

The suspect timer is ingenious, as it allows everyone to gank the target.... The target didn't get killrights on them for fighting fair, so why should they get a fair fight?

It's not the fact that killrights allow for gangbanging that bothers me. It's the fact that ANY failed attempt to fulfill the killright, no matter by whom, gives the target of the killright an free opportunity to clear his killrights virtually for free. It won't matter whether it's the guy himself paying for it or someone else misguided, chances of the killrights still being around after the first activation are slim unless the person actually WANTS to have killrights on his head.


did you read the blog?

"This immediately puts a Suspect Flag on the target, thus allowing you and others in your vicinity to attack the target. If the target player is killed while under a Suspect flag, then the kill right is ‘spent’. If the target manages to escape and the Suspect flag timer (15 minutes) lapses, the kill right is still available to be purchased (activated) later on."

as you can see if the person you got the kill right for evades death, then the kill right can be reclaimed again, untill it either expires or the bugger is dead

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#699 - 2012-10-13 18:36:15 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
How about an overview option to show folks with bounties ... this should be configurable by amount. If I want to only show people with a 100M ISK bounty or more, for instance. Use the colour blue, by default.

It being configurable is important, otherwise entire corporations will put 1 ISK bounties on all their members to muck up overview entries.


there is already such an option, it's off by default

but it's not configurable
Yeah. CCP Paradox (I think), pointed that out on Twitter.

Ignore the suggestion. The ability to configure it is probably more effort than it is worth.

But thanks for the reply, though. Appreciated.


I decided to reply here so everybody else would see it too Big smile

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis

Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#700 - 2012-10-13 18:48:01 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
did you read the blog?

"This immediately puts a Suspect Flag on the target, thus allowing you and others in your vicinity to attack the target. If the target player is killed while under a Suspect flag, then the kill right is ‘spent’. If the target manages to escape and the Suspect flag timer (15 minutes) lapses, the kill right is still available to be purchased (activated) later on."

as you can see if the person you got the kill right for evades death, then the kill right can be reclaimed again, untill it either expires or the bugger is dead

Think.

Suspect escapes, ships to shuttle, gets killed by friends or alt within ~15 minutes, killright expended.

Also, if the killright is cheap enough just ship to shuttle, activate with alt, blow self up.

The mechanic is terrible and very easily gamed.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.