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Getting Rid of the Undesirables (for good this time)

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Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#321 - 2012-10-13 11:58:30 UTC
Grumpymunky wrote:
They're trying to make highsec more dangerous for CRIMINALS in highsec. Roll


Fixed for you and also read the word "High Sec" witch makes me think you are talking about "High security Space", and actually agree with you. If it's high sec, must be dangerous for criminals Lol

brb

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#322 - 2012-10-13 11:58:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Can you provide the proof or you sayings? -no you can't, and I believe this will bring a better pvp quality to high sec. Different point of view and actually agree with CCP on this change 200%

Are you saying this from a high-sec pvper's perspective? Do you do enough high-sec pvp to be able to make this call objectively? If not, then it's kind of silly to be speaking in favor of changes that you don't understand from the perspective of the people they are directed at.

I'm not criticizing you, I just want to know what your qualifications are in regard to high-sec pvp.

Just to clarify: I'm not talking about risk here, for either side of the equation. I am only talking about the quality of pvp, as you said in your own words.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#323 - 2012-10-13 12:02:32 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Can you provide the proof or you sayings? -no you can't, and I believe this will bring a better pvp quality to high sec. Different point of view and actually agree with CCP on this change 200%

Are you saying this from a high-sec pvper's perspective? Do you do enough high-sec pvp to be able to make this call objectively? If not, then it's kind of silly to be speaking in favor of changes that you don't understand from the perspective of the people they are directed at.

I'm not criticizing you, I just want to know what your qualifications are in regard to high-sec pvp.


I'm now in null sec for a while but been there enough to know how easy most of high sec pvp is nothing but grieffing.

brb

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#324 - 2012-10-13 12:04:30 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
I'm now in null sec for a while but been there enough to know how easy most of high sec pvp is nothing but grieffing.

Please provide a few supporting arguments for your claim. Try to present them in some detail so you're not perceived as making baseless generalizations.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#325 - 2012-10-13 12:13:35 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
I'm now in null sec for a while but been there enough to know how easy most of high sec pvp is nothing but grieffing.

Please provide a few supporting arguments for your claim. Try to present them in some detail so you're not perceived as making baseless generalizations.



I'm too lazy to bring them all because there are so many. In fact seems crime watch, kill rights transfer and bounty hunting changes are actually very close to my point of view about getting rid of grieffing

brb

Grumpymunky
Monkey Steals The Peach
#326 - 2012-10-13 12:14:11 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Fixed for you and also read the word "High Sec" witch makes me think you are talking about "High security Space", and actually agree with you. If it's high sec, must be dangerous for criminals Lol

It already is considerably dangerous for criminals there. These changes are starting to cross the line between criminals being "endangered" and "completely unwanted" in highsec. Without criminals, those who believe they should be completely safe at all times in highsec effectively become completely safe, without any repercussions for any poor decisions they make there, thus leading us to the HelloKittySec Space, which we all claim we don't want.

Post with your monkey.

Thread locked due to lack of pants.

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#327 - 2012-10-13 12:17:39 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
I'm now in null sec for a while but been there enough to know how easy most of high sec pvp is nothing but grieffing.

Please provide a few supporting arguments for your claim. Try to present them in some detail so you're not perceived as making baseless generalizations.



I'm too lazy to bring them all because there are so many. In fact seems crime watch, kill rights transfer and bounty hunting changes are actually very close to my point of view about getting rid of grieffing

You're avoiding the question, then. I'm not asking you write an essay; just provide a few points that support your claim that these changes are going to increase the quality of high-sec pvp. I've been civil to you, but if you can't do this, then you can't fault me for dismissing your claim as a baseless generalization.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#328 - 2012-10-13 12:22:15 UTC
Grumpymunky wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Fixed for you and also read the word "High Sec" witch makes me think you are talking about "High security Space", and actually agree with you. If it's high sec, must be dangerous for criminals Lol

It already is considerably dangerous for criminals there. These changes are starting to cross the line between criminals being "endangered" and "completely unwanted" in highsec. Without criminals, those who believe they should be completely safe at all times in highsec effectively become completely safe, without any repercussions for any poor decisions they make there, thus leading us to the HelloKittySec Space, which we all claim we don't want.



Nothing in these changes make it so criminals are definitively ban from high sec, so I disagree with you. You can perfectly continue your criminal actions but now you will have to deal with other players eventually witch leads to more pvp.
If you really like to pvp then this shouldn't bother you. I know a couple players already stating they WILL make sort so everyone can attack them so they can get more pvp, why don't you like this?

brb

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#329 - 2012-10-13 12:26:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Can you provide the proof or you sayings? -no you can't, and I believe this will bring a better pvp quality to high sec.

Steal cargo? Everyone can attack you. Direct nerf to stealing from cans, and a direct attempt at nerfing hisec ganking for profit.

Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Different point of view and actually agree with CCP on this change 200%

Of course you do, it encourages hisec into becoming even more of a hello kitty online area.

Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
More pvp opportunities, this is good for the game. I can't see the problem on the new system and dev's explanations about it except maybe a couple possible exploits.

What the bountyhunters wanted was the ability to buy a killright from people, and then hunt down said person. What people with killrights wanted was the ability to sell the killright to bountyhunters. What CCP came up with was the ability for everyone, anywhere, to activate a killright, and for that person to be killable by everyone in his vicinity. Or he could activate it himself and shoot his own noobship and lose absolutely nothing valuable in return for getting rid of the killright on his name. I see absolutely no point where this'll mean "more PVP opportunities".

This is, again, a direct attempt at nerfing hisec ganking while completely and totally disregarding the wishes of both what those who had killrights wanted, and what those who wanted to purchase killrights wanted. In other words, classic CCP.

Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
This is good and very far from dumbing down the game, even far from making high sec kitty online. Now you have to deal with consequences of your choices, how is this dumbing down the game or making it safer when you DECIDE to become a criminal?
It isn't.

No, it is exactly yet another step towards hisec hello kitty online. CCP has apparently figured out that flipping a can isn't dangerous enough when the entire corp of the guy you canflipped can kill you, no, we've got to make it so everyone can kill you. CCP seems to think it isn't enough that half the ship's content will drop when it blows up, or that his entire corp can shoot you while you're ganking or shoot the scooper, they apparently feel it's necessary to make sure this is globally available.

Squirm as much as you'd like, CCP are gradually making hisec more and more and more into hello kitty online.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#330 - 2012-10-13 12:32:03 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Nothing in these changes make it so criminals are definitively ban from high sec, so I disagree with you. You can perfectly continue your criminal actions but now you will have to deal with other players eventually witch leads to more pvp.

Prior to these changes, canflipping someone meant the entire corp of that person could shoot you. Apparently that's not enough, eh?

Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
If you really like to pvp then this shouldn't bother you. I know a couple players already stating they WILL make sort so everyone can attack them so they can get more pvp, why don't you like this?

This is possible already, all they have to do is drop enough sec status. Why aren't they doing this now, if all they want is more PVP?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#331 - 2012-10-13 12:32:29 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
I'm now in null sec for a while but been there enough to know how easy most of high sec pvp is nothing but grieffing.

Please provide a few supporting arguments for your claim. Try to present them in some detail so you're not perceived as making baseless generalizations.



I'm too lazy to bring them all because there are so many. In fact seems crime watch, kill rights transfer and bounty hunting changes are actually very close to my point of view about getting rid of grieffing

You're avoiding the question, then. I'm not asking you write an essay; just provide a few points that support your claim that these changes are going to increase the quality of high-sec pvp. I've been civil to you, but if you can't do this, then you can't fault me for dismissing your claim as a baseless generalization.



A simple example is not knowing who or how many and when might actually attack. This will be awesome.

brb

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#332 - 2012-10-13 12:33:40 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
I'm too lazy to bring them all because there are so many. In fact seems crime watch, kill rights transfer and bounty hunting changes are actually very close to my point of view about getting rid of grieffing

"Getting rid of griefing", which means any "negative" interaction whatsoever in hisec.

So in short, "turn hisec into hello kitty online".

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#333 - 2012-10-13 12:40:40 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Nothing in these changes make it so criminals are definitively ban from high sec, so I disagree with you. You can perfectly continue your criminal actions but now you will have to deal with other players eventually witch leads to more pvp.

Prior to these changes, canflipping someone meant the entire corp of that person could shoot you. Apparently that's not enough, eh?

Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
If you really like to pvp then this shouldn't bother you. I know a couple players already stating they WILL make sort so everyone can attack them so they can get more pvp, why don't you like this?

This is possible already, all they have to do is drop enough sec status. Why aren't they doing this now, if all they want is more PVP?



Wait, you like pvp. I finally understood that, took some time but better later than never right?

So, if you can flip someone not only you have the entire guy corp able to shoot you but also everyone around. This is great, you like pvp so where's the problem?
Just go there and can flip someone, you can get more kills than ever so you should be happy. Unless of course you dislike non consensual pvp.

brb

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#334 - 2012-10-13 12:42:00 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
You're avoiding the question, then. I'm not asking you write an essay; just provide a few points that support your claim that these changes are going to increase the quality of high-sec pvp. I've been civil to you, but if you can't do this, then you can't fault me for dismissing your claim as a baseless generalization.



A simple example is not knowing who or how many and when might actually attack. This will be awesome.

Here is why you are wrong, described from the perspective of a high-sec pvper:

Being flagged to everyone means that people will use greatly-increased numbers of support ships while pvping in high-sec.

Today, getting a flag from can theft exposes you to the owner's corporation. The flagged person, instead of having to account for a limited amount of targets he might have, will have to account for the possibility of intervention by anyone, anywhere. This will lead to high-sec pvpers using numbers as the primary means of achieving victory. The end result of this will be a couple of groups who are so powerful, that no one dares to interfere with them. This will lead to a decrease in pvp in high-sec because after the first few weeks when people get adjusted to the new mechanics, people will quickly learn to not become white knights without having a significant support base. The same thing happened when can-flagging was introduced. There was a spike in kills for a few weeks, but then everyone save for the completely-oblivious newbies and mission runners learned to not take from the can of that Rifter pilot with a skull on his icon.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#335 - 2012-10-13 12:43:45 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
I'm too lazy to bring them all because there are so many. In fact seems crime watch, kill rights transfer and bounty hunting changes are actually very close to my point of view about getting rid of grieffing

"Getting rid of griefing", which means any "negative" interaction whatsoever in hisec.

So in short, "turn hisec into hello kitty online".


No no my friend, you clearly seem not like the idea someone else might well not ask you permission to shoot you. I will have then to remember you Eve is a cold harsh place and a non consensual pvp game.

brb

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#336 - 2012-10-13 12:49:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
So, if you can flip someone not only you have the entire guy corp able to shoot you but also everyone around. This is great, you like pvp so where's the problem?

That's like saying "well you like pvp, so you should like either being forced to dock or being guaranteed to lose your ship every engagement." Like I said above, people will only fight when they know their situation isn't hopeless. When I'm flagged to an entire corporation, the odds may be stacked, but the situation isn't hopeless. When I'm flagged to the whole universe, the situation is hopeless because there can be so many people around that I have zero chance of winning unless I use a massive logistics blob.

Therefore, I have two viable options: (1) not fight at all, or (2) use so much backup that people quickly learn not to shoot suspects. Either way, the quantity and quality of pvp will decrease.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#337 - 2012-10-13 12:52:19 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

Here is why you are wrong, described from the perspective of a high-sec pvper:

Being flagged to everyone means that people will use greatly-increased numbers of support ships while pvping in high-sec.

Today, getting a flag from can theft exposes you to the owner's corporation. The flagged person, instead of having to account for a limited amount of targets he might have, will have to account for the possibility of intervention by anyone, anywhere. This will lead to high-sec pvpers using numbers as the primary means of achieving victory. The end result of this will be a couple of groups who are so powerful, that no one dares to interfere with them. This will lead to a decrease in pvp in high-sec because after the first few weeks when people get adjusted to the new mechanics, people will quickly learn to not become white knights without having a significant support base. The same thing happened when can-flagging was introduced. There was a spike in kills for a few weeks, but then everyone save for the completely-oblivious newbies and mission runners learned to not take from the can of that Rifter pilot with a skull on his icon.



And this is where we disagree. The fact high sec pvp becomes non consensual pvp is exactly what high sec should be.

Players will have to adapt, of course some will do it better and succeed than others but by no means this change will make high sec safer.

brb

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#338 - 2012-10-13 12:54:54 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
So, if you can flip someone not only you have the entire guy corp able to shoot you but also everyone around. This is great, you like pvp so where's the problem?

The problem is, why was it insufficient for the entire corp to be able to shoot someone? Are your corp not able to protect you against a single guy?

Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Just go there and can flip someone, you can get more kills than ever so you should be happy. Unless of course you dislike non consensual pvp.

I like the nonconsensual PVP as much as the next guy, it's why I'm in nullsec. What I don't like, however, is the continued catering to hisec pubbies who can't be arsed to put in even a modicum of effort in fitting their ships, in reducing their exposure footprint, or in making even a token effort in keeping people safe or even enacting retribution.

i.e. welcome to the continued slip down into hello kitty online.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

ecks why
Interstellar Nuclear Penguins
Penguin Mafia.
#339 - 2012-10-13 12:55:22 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
That's just asking for a ban, you know rookie systems are like wildlife reserves, and rookies are a protected species, no hunting allowed.

They shot first. I was just passing through on my way to being a good EVE citizen in Motsu.


All absolute seriousness, I urge you not to test the GMs on this point Pirate

So in other words if you pass through a rookie system and get engaged by noobs, petition it and don't shoot back?

I'm just looking for clarification, here.

Not to sound mean, but between the changes and the enforcement of said changes, they don't really know what they're doing. I can construct these tactics in such a manner that they'll have to invent a reason to punish me for something entirely arbitrary. Which is in fact what I'm doing right now.


So you are threatening to find exploits in the rules and use them on new players?
You would be better off just getting a job and a life so you can get some experience of them and maybe gain some common sense :)
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#340 - 2012-10-13 12:56:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Double post.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted