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The future of Community and CCL

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Anslo
Scope Works
#701 - 2012-10-12 18:58:52 UTC
Lord Ryan wrote:
stuff


That's the business world. ISD don't grief btw, they enforce. Unruly mobs beget unruly policing.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Josef Djugashvilis
#702 - 2012-10-12 20:54:17 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
I think the real fear is that a few very eloquent posters who really capture the spirit of the community would have the ability to interject ideas that the majority likes and the vocal minority wouldn't be able to troll the thread into derailment skirting the rules of conduct.


No, the problem is that your idea would turn each thread into it's own fishbowl for the OP and whatever flunkies/sockpuppets they might have.

Your claim that other threads would check this behavior is ridiculous, as all the badposter OP would have to do would be claim the counter threads are just the result of that OP censoring their thread.


At best, it risks splitting every thread with a hint of contention into two threads yelling at each other.


Forgive my ignorance, but what is a 'sockpuppet'?

This is not a signature.
Pipa Porto
#703 - 2012-10-13 01:42:42 UTC
Anslo wrote:

Hostility begets hostility. People can frame certain questions certain ways. Pipa framed hers in a hostile manner, plain and simple. People are assholes in this thread, so assholery will be given back to them. Act civily, and you get civility.

They TRIED to be professional and you bittervet assholes just tear them up. They should have just outright ban people instead of giving them warning. Nothing would be lost anyway.


I did phrase my question civilly. Back on page 32.

After a week and a half of dodging the initial question and focusing instead on trying to convince everyone that ISDs aren't making new rules when they prohibit something not prohibited by the rules, and an attempt to bury the thread, I got a little snippy.

Instead of answering the initial question, CCP Navigator decided to latch onto this and keep running the topic off the rails.

By the way, 2 weeks later, nobody's answered the initial question over whether Killmails can be posted in GD or whether (as ISD Suvetar claims) the rules of other subforums apply to posting in GD.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#704 - 2012-10-13 01:44:44 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but what is a 'sockpuppet'?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)

Essentially an alt used to make it appear as if there are multiple sources of independent support for something.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#705 - 2012-10-13 01:52:06 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Forgive my ignorance, but what is a 'sockpuppet'?


Sock puppet: specifically in EVE terms, a forum posting alt used to provide the illusion that a forum poster has friends, supporters, or respect. Sock puppets are also useful for asking "Dorothy Dix" questions, or for making foolish statements which the controlling player can then refute in an attempt to improve their forum k/d ratio.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#706 - 2012-10-13 01:58:57 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
I think the real fear is that a few very eloquent posters who really capture the spirit of the community would have the ability to interject ideas that the majority likes and the vocal minority wouldn't be able to troll the thread into derailment skirting the rules of conduct.


The fear is that there are so few eloquent posters who really capture the spirit of the community, and so many trolls.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#707 - 2012-10-13 02:17:26 UTC
Hi,

Just to give you an update on the Killmail thing.

As of right now, the position we're sticking to is that posting killmails leads to trolling, and will be dealt with as an application of forum rule 7.

forum rules wrote:

7. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is the word used to describe a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players. Posts of this nature are disruptive and do not contribute to the sense of community we want for our forums.


You may be pleased to know however, that we've been discussing this internally, a lot.
I don't know what the final decision is going to be, but I just wanted to assure you that we're not brushing this under the carpet.

Don't forget that there is a ISD seminar for the CCL team tomorrow and people will have the chance to ask questions of representatives of both the CCL team and the CCP Community team.

Have at look at this thread for details.

Thanks and fly safe.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Pipa Porto
#708 - 2012-10-13 02:27:46 UTC
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Hi,

Just to give you an update on the Killmail thing.

As of right now, the position we're sticking to is that posting killmails leads to trolling, and will be dealt with as an application of forum rule 7.

forum rules wrote:

7. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is the word used to describe a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players. Posts of this nature are disruptive and do not contribute to the sense of community we want for our forums.


You may be pleased to know however, that we've been discussing this internally, a lot.
I don't know what the final decision is going to be, but I just wanted to assure you that we're not brushing this under the carpet.

Don't forget that there is a ISD seminar for the CCL team tomorrow and people will have the chance to ask questions of representatives of both the CCL team and the CCP Community team.

Have at look at this thread for details.

Thanks and fly safe.



Has anyone come up with the idea of, say, moderating the trolling posts that you claim posting killmails invariably leads to?


What justification are you using to claim that posting killmails is, in and of itself, "deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players"? So far, the only thing you've posted to back that claim was a subforum rule stating that posting killmails was to be considered trolling in that subforum.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#709 - 2012-10-13 02:32:26 UTC
Pipa,

I am not going to get into word games with you about this.

Just wait and see what the CCP Community team comes up with.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Pipa Porto
#710 - 2012-10-13 02:38:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Pipa,

I am not going to get into word games with you about this.

Just wait and see what the CCP Community team comes up with.


You're saying that posting killmails is a violation of rule 7. Rule 7 specifically defines what it prohibits. How is asking you to explain how posting a killmail will always fit that definition getting into "word games"?


By the way, specific example of how posting killmails is not trolling: The various miner ganking threads, where miners claimed that they were being ganked regardless of tank. If posting killmails were not allowed, they would be able to keep making that false claim without anyone being able to call them out on the fact that nobody's ever produced a killmail of a heavily tanked Hulk. How is posting killmails to provide evidence of a claim "deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players"?



If CCP wants to change the rules by fiat, that's fine. There's an edit functionality for Wiki pages. They can also make changes to subforum rules posts.

You are claiming that your ban on killmail posting is not a rule change, and that posting killmails is already banned forum wide by rule 7. To make that claim, you need to explain how in the world posting killmails is always "deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players."

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#711 - 2012-10-14 21:08:27 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Pipa,

I am not going to get into word games with you about this.

Just wait and see what the CCP Community team comes up with.


You're saying that posting killmails is a violation of rule 7. Rule 7 specifically defines what it prohibits. How is asking you to explain how posting a killmail will always fit that definition getting into "word games"?


Here's a challenge for you then Pipa: classify the posts containing killmails into two groups: those where the thread degenerated into trolling, and those which didn't.

Go! Find! Report!

As an aside, do you agree with the philosophy of "nipping it in the bud" when it comes to controlling weeds and unwanted growth in a garden?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Anslo
Scope Works
#712 - 2012-10-14 21:12:21 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Pipa Porto wrote:
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Pipa,

I am not going to get into word games with you about this.

Just wait and see what the CCP Community team comes up with.


rabble rabble."


You seriously have the loudest and most obnoxious attitude. Snip - everyone just calm down. - ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#713 - 2012-10-14 21:15:09 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Anslo wrote:
You seriously have the loudest and most obnoxious attitude. Snip - everyone just calm down. - ISD Dorrim Barstorlode


How would Pipa learn to be a good citizen without the ability to try to be better?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Becka Goldbeck
#714 - 2012-10-14 21:21:39 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Anslo wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Pipa,

I am not going to get into word games with you about this.

Just wait and see what the CCP Community team comes up with.


rabble rabble."


You seriously have the loudest and most obnoxious attitude. Snip - everyone just calm down. - ISD Dorrim Barstorlode


How will you express your sanctimoniousness without 'undesirables' around?

What would you even talk about?

Also, who says you aren't an undesirable? I think you just insulted Pipa. I know you won't be moderated for it because you're on the ISD's side. But isn't that "undesirable" behavior?
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#715 - 2012-10-14 21:34:09 UTC
Hi folks. I just want to remind you that arguing for the sake of arguing is counter productive. When we moderate, we do so as impartially as we can. So if someone attacks someone else, we have to step in and stop it. We don't pick sides, we just do the best we can to keep it civil. Hopefully that gets the point I'm trying to make across. Thank you.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#716 - 2012-10-14 21:40:41 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
As an aside, do you agree with the philosophy of "nipping it in the bud" when it comes to controlling weeds and unwanted growth in a garden?


In gardening, sure, because in 100% of cases weeds and unwanted growth lead to problems. But are killmails trollbait even in 50% of cases on these forums?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
III ZiggyBang
One Point 0
#717 - 2012-10-14 21:41:38 UTC
There are always a few morally bankrupt individuals ready to don the black shirts & do the unjust bidding of their corrupt overlords. Even if it is on a volunteer basis.
delete away guys, just know by using these tactics to control discussion, thought, ideas, you are no better than the worst kind of Dictator & an enemy of everything that's worth fighting for on this planet.
There are worse things than some trolling & inappropriate comments, I personally find the level of pithy, punitive, arbitrary moderation here an assault & offense far worse than anything else the community can come up with.
CCP you are the bad guys here not the playerbase.

CCP you should be downright ashamed of yourselves for taking this approach, whoever came up with this idea, for whatever reasons, is an enemy of the people & a disgrace & has no respect for the things most of us hold dear.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#718 - 2012-10-14 21:45:44 UTC
ISD Suvetar wrote:
Hi,

Just to give you an update on the Killmail thing.

As of right now, the position we're sticking to is that posting killmails leads to trolling, and will be dealt with as an application of forum rule 7.



But what if we are already trolling, can we then link a killmail legally?

Or what if the only way to stop trolls is to link a killmail. Is it legal too?

What if I have fake permission from CCP to link killmails, will that work?

What if I am drunk?

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Corpse Bride
Perkone
Caldari State
#719 - 2012-10-14 21:53:00 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
III ZiggyBang wrote:
There are always a few morally bankrupt individuals ready to don the black shirts & do the unjust bidding of their corrupt overlords.

There are worse things than some trolling & inappropriate comments

CCP you are the bad guys here not the playerbase.

CCP you should be downright ashamed of yourselves


This coming from the guy who openly associates the murderers of millions of innocent people and other atrocities, with forum volunteers who keep this place sane.

Edit: Snipped personal attack - ISD Suvetar.
Becka Goldbeck
#720 - 2012-10-14 21:56:11 UTC
Does anyone remember Akita T? I'm not sure if he's still around but I'll use his posting as an example. Back when the old forums were closing Akita T was close to becoming the top poster, and accomplished this after a flurry of posts. Forum posting can be a hobby, some forum posters may lurk around a forum, searching, waiting for something they can comment on. They collect little thumbs ups or build their post count.

This becomes a problem when you introduce forum posters with special moderation privileges. These ISD posters lurk around this forum, searching, waiting for something to moderate on. Not only does this lead to overzealous moderation but because they're clearly doing it as a hobby, often after putting their 2 cents in they'll promptly lock the thread. They'll even go so far as to edit or delete dissenting posts.

When this happens, ISD's develop a sort of unholy following of regular forum posters who are quick to bandwagon against anything they think could be or will be moderated. This boosts the ISD's ego leading to even more enthusiastic moderation and it makes the regular forum posters feel good that they were on the 'winning' side. But it's really a false contest, there's no winning and losing side, the entire thing is being created by the overzealous moderators themselves.

I think that the ISD's should have their moderation powers immediately revoked as they're creating more hostility than they would have or could have ever solved.

(this thread was locked)