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Dev blog: The Retribution of Team Super Friends

First post First post
Author
Alexander Renoir
Covenant Trading Agency
#581 - 2012-10-12 18:42:55 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Alexander Renoir wrote:
@ Punkturis please try to answer:
Why do you at CCP think that it would be a good idea to implement a new anonymous tool to be able to harass players, who never ever did criminal acts to others?

DevBlog wrote:

[...] bounties can now be placed on anyone, we’re removing the -1 security standing requirement currently in the bounty system.


Why this? Someone who never played offensive and just wants to play WITHOUT beeing a pirat, ganker or a$$hole and just wants to fly his missions, build ships or mines will now get bountys. WHY?
You state that:

CCP Punkturis wrote:

I don't see how that's different than just ganking him over and over without the bounty?


When there is no diference .. why this option to anonymous griefe a person with a positive security rating with bounty who never did criminal acts?
I never did criminals acts because I never wanted a bounty! Now every player is able to add an bounty to me although I never did harm him/her.

I thought that the bounty system is administrated from CONCORD; the police in EVE. But now even good players will get bounties just for fun. THAT makes no sense.
Keep the option to place bountys to REAL CRIMINALS with negative security rating .. not to someone who never played like an a$$hole!


I believe (I have faith!) that people will mostly be putting bounties on people that annoy them, not just random people in local.. you can be a pretty annoying forum poster but a nice person in game so you might want to place bounty on that guy

I think that if you're a nice person in general people are going to leave you alone

that said, there are of course mean people that'll suicide gank anyone, with or without bounties

but I'll also point out I'm not a game designer, I'm just a brogrammer Big smile



Sorry, but I do not have your faith. People annoy other people JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN! It was ever so in EVE. Why do you think that there will be a change and that all people will use the new bounty system as intented? That will NOT happen. It is the nature of eve that there will be griefing. They need no reason.
But perhaps I can use this new system to show you that you do NOT need a special reason to get a bounty. All I have to do is waiting and set a few 100k ISK on some CCP's as soon as this crap goes online. Roll
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#582 - 2012-10-12 18:43:01 UTC
I hope this is the beginning of the end of security status, actually, as it's so easily manipulated as to be completely meaningless, and it's in dire need of replacement.

Roime wrote:
A missioner kills thousands and thousands of innocent people everyday. Face the consequences.


I'm pretty sure this is not what you meant, but if NPC pirates put bounties on mission runners who killed them one too many times, that would be pretty funny. Speaking as someone who's blown up his share of NPC pirates.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#583 - 2012-10-12 18:45:55 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:


As for "stealing" the current bounties... really? Smile



I just looked in the bounty office. There is someone with a 218 Billion isk bounty currently. At 500 million per PLEX that is about 436 PLEX removed from the game or $8,720 USD worth of PLEX removed from a quick change of code. If you fail to see how that can be considered corrupt then I guess you and I just aren't on the same page and will have to agree to disagree.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#584 - 2012-10-12 18:46:13 UTC
Alexander Renoir wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Alexander Renoir wrote:
@ Punkturis please try to answer:
Why do you at CCP think that it would be a good idea to implement a new anonymous tool to be able to harass players, who never ever did criminal acts to others?

DevBlog wrote:

[...] bounties can now be placed on anyone, we’re removing the -1 security standing requirement currently in the bounty system.


Why this? Someone who never played offensive and just wants to play WITHOUT beeing a pirat, ganker or a$$hole and just wants to fly his missions, build ships or mines will now get bountys. WHY?
You state that:

CCP Punkturis wrote:

I don't see how that's different than just ganking him over and over without the bounty?


When there is no diference .. why this option to anonymous griefe a person with a positive security rating with bounty who never did criminal acts?
I never did criminals acts because I never wanted a bounty! Now every player is able to add an bounty to me although I never did harm him/her.

I thought that the bounty system is administrated from CONCORD; the police in EVE. But now even good players will get bounties just for fun. THAT makes no sense.
Keep the option to place bountys to REAL CRIMINALS with negative security rating .. not to someone who never played like an a$$hole!


I believe (I have faith!) that people will mostly be putting bounties on people that annoy them, not just random people in local.. you can be a pretty annoying forum poster but a nice person in game so you might want to place bounty on that guy

I think that if you're a nice person in general people are going to leave you alone

that said, there are of course mean people that'll suicide gank anyone, with or without bounties

but I'll also point out I'm not a game designer, I'm just a brogrammer Big smile



Sorry, but I do not have your faith. People annoy other people JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN! It was ever so in EVE. Why do you think that there will be a change and that all people will use the new bounty system as intented? That will NOT happen. It is the nature of eve that there will be griefing. They need no reason.
But perhaps I can use this new system to show you that you do NOT need a special reason to get a bounty. All I have to do is waiting and set a few 100k ISK on some CCP's as soon as this crap goes online. Roll


I didn't say it wouldn't be, I said I think it will mostly be used to place bounty on annoying people!

but I mean people already gank nice people, do you think they'll start doing so much more of that now if they have bounties on them?

also, I'l say it again, your sec status in space doesn't have to say that you're not annoying, you could be super annoying on the forums!

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis

space ganelon
The Mining Corp
#585 - 2012-10-12 18:46:15 UTC  |  Edited by: space ganelon
I've really tried to be positive, but the more I think about it the more the new bounty system seems pointless.

The devs are clearly between a rock and a hard place on bounties - pay too much, suicide collection nullifies the bounty. Pay too little, having a bounty or not becomes irrelevant in how often you get blowed up.

The upper bound on what a bounty can pay is pretty much:
(ship_cost + insurance_cost) - insurance_payout
Any more than that, it is profitable to consume your own bounty. (KB efficiency aside)

That's a pretty small benfit, considering you already expect to get about that order of magnitude of payout anyhow in the form of module drops.

So, I contend it's just really not possible to make a totally public bounty system with any real value. This leads to what's already been discussed, limiting the payout to a group chosen by the person placing the bounty. This mechanic already exists, it's called a merc corp. Yep, merc corps can scam you. (choose wisely) You *could* add, as suggested, some analog of "kill contracts", which I personally would enjoy very much. But the libertarian in me says don't bother making it a game mechanic, let the market and community decide who the reliable merc corps are.

To all the carebears up in arms about the new bounty system:
1) If you are in hisec, the bounty will never tip the scales over whether it is worth it to gank you. Most gankers are businessmen, not simply drunken teenagers. Especially since the tank buff to hulk and friends.
2) If you are in lowsec, we will shoot you becuase you are there, bounty or no. It's what we do.
3) In the event the bounty incites a wardec for the hisec opportunity, you'll at least be forewarned to eschew bling.

That's all I have to say about that.

EDIT: fix typo
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#586 - 2012-10-12 18:51:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Alexander Renoir wrote:
Sorry, but I do not have your faith. People annoy other people JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN! It was ever so in EVE. Why do you think that there will be a change and that all people will use the new bounty system as intented? That will NOT happen. It is the nature of eve that there will be griefing. They need no reason.
But perhaps I can use this new system to show you that you do NOT need a special reason to get a bounty. All I have to do is waiting and set a few 100k ISK on some CCP's as soon as this crap goes online. Roll


It was ever so in EVE by design, if I remember my CCP lore correctly.

Besides, it's hard enough for trained, veteran judges to sort out guilt and innocence. You want a computer to do it in real time? More to the point, you want a system that can't be abused? Because those simply don't exist. Anywhere.

EDIT: And sec status is meaningless. Or, strictly speaking, a positive sec status means that you've popped dozens of rat ships per player ship... which, from the point of view of what you're trying to argue for, is meaningless.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Alexander Renoir
Covenant Trading Agency
#587 - 2012-10-12 18:53:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Renoir
CCP Punkturis wrote:


I didn't say it wouldn't be, I said I think it will mostly be used to place bounty on annoying people!

but I mean people already gank nice people, do you think they'll start doing so much more of that now if they have bounties on them?

also, I'l say it again, your sec status in space doesn't have to say that you're not annoying, you could be super annoying on the forums!



ALL you forget is the FACT that my main char is a nice guy who likes to help other players. Now imagine a new player I want to help and who sees my bounty because of some other dumb player gave me a bounty!
How should I explain an absolute new player, WITHOUT ANY knowledge of this game, that I really just like to help him? I have 300 Mill ISK bounty on my head. I must be a bad guy. No one will have help from a man with a high bounty.

You at CCP do not really play ALL possible situations before you make an decision. So I will stop helping other players. Perhaps I will gank especially new players! Why? I will have alrady bounty on my head after this crap. It is useless to take care of my reputation.

ABSOLUTE BAD IDEA CCP!
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#588 - 2012-10-12 18:56:24 UTC
If anything tbh bounties are now not "worth" it than before. Since now you can place it on anyone, ship, corp etc it semi lost the value compared to when only "bad pilots" could get one. Regardless if you can claim it or not.

For example, now if a 4.0 pilot has one, you will know that piliot at one time was a negative. In the future, you will not know if it was because of negative or simply because someone felt like putting a bounty on a 4.0 or not. Regardless of good or bad.

I can imagine pilots putting bounties on pilots that never done anything to anyone, just for that sake.

Good or bad, well that depends on how one see it, but with people knowing that you can, that shouldn't hurt too much for positive people either way (assuming ppl read the blogs lol)

/c

★★★ Secure 3rd party service ★★★

Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Twitter @ChribbaVeldspar

CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#589 - 2012-10-12 18:59:57 UTC
Alexander Renoir wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:


I didn't say it wouldn't be, I said I think it will mostly be used to place bounty on annoying people!

but I mean people already gank nice people, do you think they'll start doing so much more of that now if they have bounties on them?

also, I'l say it again, your sec status in space doesn't have to say that you're not annoying, you could be super annoying on the forums!



ALL you forget is the FACT that my main char is a nice guy who likes to help other players. Now imagine a new player I want to help and who sees my bounty because of some other dumb player gave me a bounty!
How should I explain an absolute new player, WITHOUT ANY knowledge of this game, that I really just like to help him? I have 300 Mill ISK bounty on my head. I must be a bad guy. No one will have help from a man with a high bounty.

You at CCP do not really play ALL possible situations before you make an decision. So I will stop helping other players. Perhaps I will gank especially new players! Why? I will have alrady bounty on my head after this crap. It is useless to take care of my reputation.

ABSOLUTE BAD IDEA CCP!


hey I already told you I'm not a game designer, I don't know why you care so much about my opinion on itBig smile but I like that you're a nice guy and help new players, it's really cute :3

Punkturis has bounty on her head on TQ now, I hope that doesn't mean people don't see me as a nice person!

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis

Alexander Renoir
Covenant Trading Agency
#590 - 2012-10-12 19:04:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Renoir
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Alexander Renoir wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:


I didn't say it wouldn't be, I said I think it will mostly be used to place bounty on annoying people!

but I mean people already gank nice people, do you think they'll start doing so much more of that now if they have bounties on them?

also, I'l say it again, your sec status in space doesn't have to say that you're not annoying, you could be super annoying on the forums!



ALL you forget is the FACT that my main char is a nice guy who likes to help other players. Now imagine a new player I want to help and who sees my bounty because of some other dumb player gave me a bounty!
How should I explain an absolute new player, WITHOUT ANY knowledge of this game, that I really just like to help him? I have 300 Mill ISK bounty on my head. I must be a bad guy. No one will have help from a man with a high bounty.

You at CCP do not really play ALL possible situations before you make an decision. So I will stop helping other players. Perhaps I will gank especially new players! Why? I will have alrady bounty on my head after this crap. It is useless to take care of my reputation.

ABSOLUTE BAD IDEA CCP!


hey I already told you I'm not a game designer, I don't know why you care so much about my opinion on itBig smile but I like that you're a nice guy and help new players, it's really cute :3

Punkturis has bounty on her head on TQ now, I hope that doesn't mean people don't see me as a nice person!



I just want to tell you.. and ALL other reading DEV's / CCP's that this simple idea of giving bounty to every one is a bad idea and I hope that EXACT my situation will be discussed from the people in power.
Good gys MUST be identifiable! Bounty on every one leads to the opinion "You have bounty? You are a bad guy. GO AWAY! NOW!!!"

Btw.. that was exact my opinion as i started playing eve. After some (long) time I learned what a crap bounty system CCP has developed.. but the firts weeks I do not wanted to have negative rated persons in my local.

Perhaps "placing bounty on every one" is not an idea from CCP. It is the evidence that CCP is unable to bring a better bounty system. If you do NOT implement the ability to place a bounty on a positive rated player; CCP wold be unable to bring bounty on corporations / alliances with positive rated players in this corp / alliance!
Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#591 - 2012-10-12 19:09:27 UTC
Will it be possible to place a bounty on an NPC noob corporation?
Bodega Cat
BlackWatch Industrial Group
Northern Coalition.
#592 - 2012-10-12 19:12:50 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:

I believe (I have faith!) that people will mostly be putting bounties on people that annoy them, not just random people in local.. you can be a pretty annoying forum poster but a nice person in game so you might want to place bounty on that guy

I think that if you're a nice person in general people are going to leave you alone

that said, there are of course mean people that'll suicide gank anyone, with or without bounties

but I'll also point out I'm not a game designer, I'm just a brogrammer Big smile


It also stands to reason, that a big enough d-bag to randomly do this on the reg, is probably going to be worrying more about his climbing bounty himself.

CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#593 - 2012-10-12 19:13:03 UTC
Jas Dor wrote:
Will it be possible to place a bounty on an NPC noob corporation?


no you can only place bounty on player corporations

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis

CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#594 - 2012-10-12 19:14:37 UTC
Alexander Renoir wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Alexander Renoir wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:


I didn't say it wouldn't be, I said I think it will mostly be used to place bounty on annoying people!

but I mean people already gank nice people, do you think they'll start doing so much more of that now if they have bounties on them?

also, I'l say it again, your sec status in space doesn't have to say that you're not annoying, you could be super annoying on the forums!



ALL you forget is the FACT that my main char is a nice guy who likes to help other players. Now imagine a new player I want to help and who sees my bounty because of some other dumb player gave me a bounty!
How should I explain an absolute new player, WITHOUT ANY knowledge of this game, that I really just like to help him? I have 300 Mill ISK bounty on my head. I must be a bad guy. No one will have help from a man with a high bounty.

You at CCP do not really play ALL possible situations before you make an decision. So I will stop helping other players. Perhaps I will gank especially new players! Why? I will have alrady bounty on my head after this crap. It is useless to take care of my reputation.

ABSOLUTE BAD IDEA CCP!


hey I already told you I'm not a game designer, I don't know why you care so much about my opinion on itBig smile but I like that you're a nice guy and help new players, it's really cute :3

Punkturis has bounty on her head on TQ now, I hope that doesn't mean people don't see me as a nice person!



I just want to tell you.. and ALL other reading DEV's / CCP's that this simple idea of giving bounty to every one is a bad idea and I hope that EXACT my situation will be discussed from the people in power.
Good gys MUST be identifiable! Bounty on every one leads to the opinion "You have bounty? You are a bad guy. GO AWAY! NOW!!!"

Btw.. that was exact my opinion as i started playing eve. After some (long) time I learned what a crap bounty system CCP has developed.. but the firts weeks I do not wanted to have negative rated persons in my local.

Perhaps "placing bounty on every one" is not an idea from CCP. It is the evidence that CCP is unable to bring a better bounty system. If you do NOT implement the ability to place a bounty on a positive rated player; CCP wold be unable to bring bounty on corporations / alliances with positive rated players in this corp / alliance!


I already got that you don't like it and thank you for your feedback, all feedback on our feature is the reason we put out the dev blog so early!

anyways, it's Friday night and I'm watching a movie (Lars and the real girl) so have a nice evening and weekend space friend!

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#595 - 2012-10-12 19:17:58 UTC
Alexander Renoir wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Alexander Renoir wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:


I didn't say it wouldn't be, I said I think it will mostly be used to place bounty on annoying people!

but I mean people already gank nice people, do you think they'll start doing so much more of that now if they have bounties on them?

also, I'l say it again, your sec status in space doesn't have to say that you're not annoying, you could be super annoying on the forums!



ALL you forget is the FACT that my main char is a nice guy who likes to help other players. Now imagine a new player I want to help and who sees my bounty because of some other dumb player gave me a bounty!
How should I explain an absolute new player, WITHOUT ANY knowledge of this game, that I really just like to help him? I have 300 Mill ISK bounty on my head. I must be a bad guy. No one will have help from a man with a high bounty.

You at CCP do not really play ALL possible situations before you make an decision. So I will stop helping other players. Perhaps I will gank especially new players! Why? I will have alrady bounty on my head after this crap. It is useless to take care of my reputation.

ABSOLUTE BAD IDEA CCP!


hey I already told you I'm not a game designer, I don't know why you care so much about my opinion on itBig smile but I like that you're a nice guy and help new players, it's really cute :3

Punkturis has bounty on her head on TQ now, I hope that doesn't mean people don't see me as a nice person!



I just want to tell you.. and ALL other reading DEV's / CCP's that this simple idea of giving bounty to every one is a bad idea and I hope that EXACT my situation will be discussed from the people in power.
Good gys MUST be identifiable! Bounty on every one leads to the opinion "You have bounty? You are a bad guy. GO AWAY! NOW!!!"

Btw.. that was exact my opinion as i started playing eve. After some (long) time I learned what a crap bounty system CCP has developed.. but the firts weeks I do not wanted to have negative rated persons in my local.

Perhaps "placing bounty on every one" is not an idea from CCP. It is the evidence that CCP is unable to bring a better bounty system. If you do NOT implement the ability to place a bounty on a positive rated player; CCP wold be unable to bring bounty on corporations / alliances with positive rated players in this corp / alliance!


Sec status, which the old bounties were based on, is NOT an indicator of a "good guy"!!! And if you are teaching that to people, then you are doing them a DISSERVICE... and need to stop!!!

A bounty system, where bounties can be placed on you by ANYONE is a far, far better barometer for good and not so good EvE players... Good players, that don't go out of their way to **** other players off, will rarely get bounties on them. Why would they?? I honestly think you're a scammer that is afraid his good guy facade will be ruined when people put a bounty on your head for scamming them.... why else would you be so fearful of this change??
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#596 - 2012-10-12 19:24:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Chribba
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Jas Dor wrote:
Will it be possible to place a bounty on an NPC noob corporation?


no you can only place bounty on player corporations

But pilot(+ship) in NPC corp right? Else this whole Bounty Hunting concept is broken and utterly useless...

★★★ Secure 3rd party service ★★★

Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Twitter @ChribbaVeldspar

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#597 - 2012-10-12 19:28:20 UTC
Chribba wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Jas Dor wrote:
Will it be possible to place a bounty on an NPC noob corporation?


no you can only place bounty on player corporations

But pilot(+ship) in NPC corp right? Else this whole Bounty Hunting concept is broken and utterly useless...


You can place bounties on a pilot.....

Why is the bounty hunting concept broken if you can't place the bounty on a specific ship?
Buffalo Ryder
Space Vikings
#598 - 2012-10-12 19:30:17 UTC
There has been too many times that i wanted to put a bounty on my friend's head (now on his ships) but could not because of that -1 sec. now i could if and when these changes are implemented. i might put a bounty on all who post in this thread if i so choose. MOST players won't throw their hard earned isk into bounties unless they have good reason. all ranging from being killed and some mightdo to get some lolz. or maybe a player/corp/alliance wants to take over a ore/ice belt or system and slaps every player/corp/alliance with a bounty in that system and maybe a entice gank player/corp/alliance to run them out or force them to dock up cause of their bounty on them.. anyways risk vs reward is the name of the bounty game. it sandbox style- someone wants to throw sand at your back and people want to throw sand around. ccp just took out the morale of needing you to be bad (negative sec stat). eve is hard and unforgiving no matter WHAT you do.
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#599 - 2012-10-12 19:31:04 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Chribba wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Jas Dor wrote:
Will it be possible to place a bounty on an NPC noob corporation?


no you can only place bounty on player corporations

But pilot(+ship) in NPC corp right? Else this whole Bounty Hunting concept is broken and utterly useless...


You can place bounties on a pilot.....

Why is the bounty hunting concept broken if you can't place the bounty on a specific ship?
Just a confirmation about the "no able to hide in NPC corp"-thing. I might have worded myself a bit weird.

Clarification: NPC membership does not render you untouchable - is my thought.

/c

★★★ Secure 3rd party service ★★★

Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Twitter @ChribbaVeldspar

Alexander Renoir
Covenant Trading Agency
#600 - 2012-10-12 19:36:00 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Sec status, which the old bounties were based on, is NOT an indicator of a "good guy"!!! And if you are teaching that to people, then you are doing them a DISSERVICE... and need to stop!!!

A bounty system, where bounties can be placed on you by ANYONE is a far, far better barometer for good and not so good EvE players... Good players, that don't go out of their way to **** other players off, will rarely get bounties on them. Why would they?? I honestly think you're a scammer that is afraid his good guy facade will be ruined when people put a bounty on your head for scamming them.... why else would you be so fearful of this change??


No! You are wrong. No scammer or something. Just a missionrunner with another char.
I never "teached that bounty is an indicator of a good guy". That is the idea EVERY new player will have itself. Roll

Your last sentence "Why I hate this change" shows me, that you have not red the post at once.
One more time. It is a bad Idea. And I am not a scammer or PvPler etc. I am just worried to have a bounty on my head which leads to the presumption (from new players) that I am not a trustworthy person. That is all.