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Dev blog: The Retribution of Team Super Friends

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Alexander Renoir
Covenant Trading Agency
#521 - 2012-10-12 15:57:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Renoir
Why do you at CCP think that it would be a good idea to implement a new anonymous tool to be able to harass players, who never ever did criminal acts to others?

DevBlog wrote:

[...] bounties can now be placed on anyone, we’re removing the -1 security standing requirement currently in the bounty system.


Why this? Someone who never played offensive and just wants to play WITHOUT beeing a pirat, ganker or a$$hole and just wants to fly his missions, build ships or mines will now get bountys. WHY?
You state that:

CCP Punkturis wrote:

I don't see how that's different than just ganking him over and over without the bounty?


When there is no diference .. why this option to anonymous griefe a person with a positive security rating with bounty who never did criminal acts?
I never did criminals acts because I never wanted a bounty! Now every player is able to add an bounty to me although I never did harm him/her.

I thought that the bounty system is administrated from CONCORD; the police in EVE. But now even good players will get bounties just for fun. THAT makes no sense.
Keep the option to place bountys to REAL CRIMINALS with negative security rating .. not to someone who never played like an a$$hole!

DevBlog wrote:

Bounty pools are eliminated and a portion returned to those that contributed to the pool if the target has been inactive (unsubscribed) for a long time.


You want unsubs from EVE? How long is this period that I have to unsub and play another game till the set bounty of my character is gone?
Herr Hammer Draken
#522 - 2012-10-12 15:57:26 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Megan DeMonet wrote:
this is some good stuff....

I see a lot of gankers crying about "oh no, now i can be killed by a fleet instead of the noob miner that cant fight. this is a bunch of BS, think ill go play WOW." <-- not a direct quote, then again i skipped a few pages so it could be.

This could already happen, if the noob miner had a fleet defending him.



But it will never happen because of the economics of mining. Mining is one of the worst isk careers in eve.

Second reason it will never happen is because the ganker fleet has total control of the gank.
If they see a defense fleet they will move on to another target. The defense fleet will never ever get to fire a shot at a ganker.
Talk about a boring duty. Fly a defense fleet for a mining op. Just try to stay alert for hours to nothing ever happening.
Oh and the isk/hour for doing that defending the lowest paid career in eve. That would have to be the ultimate low in eve.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#523 - 2012-10-12 16:08:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
I take it since nobody managed to reply to my questions, then they are all realistic?

Bodega Cat wrote:
If notoriety starts to find good bounty hunters, it could be interesting what kind of side deals they can work out with people and stuff as well.

It may actually inject more into the mercenary side of things than we think over time.


One should not be target of a bounty just for being notorious.
It only promotes ALT posting, ALT killing, ALT anything and to do much, much less for the community.

Imagine this: Chribba with a permanent 10B bounty on his head, just because he's a good and known guy.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#524 - 2012-10-12 16:13:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Alexander Renoir wrote:
Why do you at CCP think that it would be a good idea to implement a new anonymous tool to be able to harass players, who never ever did criminal acts to others?

DevBlog wrote:

[...] bounties can now be placed on anyone, we’re removing the -1 security standing requirement currently in the bounty system.


Why this? Someone who never played offensive and just wants to play WITHOUT beeing a pirat, ganker or a$$hole and just wants to fly his missions, build ships or mines will now get bountys. WHY?
You state that:


It's simple: just make so that only people with sec status above 4.5 become immune to bounties.

Only miners would still be liberally harassed with impunity, since they don't get standings or sec status, but hey, if you are miner you are accustomed being everybody's doormat since 2003.

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Singulis Pacifica
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#525 - 2012-10-12 16:15:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Singulis Pacifica
Alexander Renoir wrote:


I thought that the bounty system is administrated from CONCORD; the police in EVE. But now even good players will get bounties just for fun. THAT IS UNFAIR!
Keep the option to place bountys to REAL CRIMINALS with negative security rating .. not to someone who never played like an a$$hole!


Mmm, as much as I agree with you, the current system has a design flaw. In 0.0-sec, criminal acts are not seen as "criminal" 0.0 sec is 0.0 sec: lawless portion of space. However, defeating rats in 0.0 sec does reward players with a security status increase. As such, players that live in 0.0 sec for quite a while can potentially reach the maximum of 5.0 and then return to high-sec. If they then start to attack players illegally, then their rate will steadily drop, but the problem is that the ones that were attacked can not yet put a bounty on top of that person yet as the rating is still too high. Or suppose the player with a 5.0 rating never leaves 0.0 sec. He would then never be able to have a bounty on top of his head.

And CCP wants to make sure these players can have a bounty on their heads too. Which I can agree with.

Alexander Renoir wrote:

DevBlog wrote:

Bounty pools are eliminated and a portion returned to those that contributed to the pool if the target has been inactive (unsubscribed) for a long time.


You want unsubs from EVE? How long is this period that I have to unsub and play another game till the set bounty of my character is gone?


It has been answered as a 5-month inactivity.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#526 - 2012-10-12 16:17:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
CCP Tallest wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

...
3.) If I kill a suspect that has the potential for killrights, but the killirghts were never activated, I'd like confirmation that their killrights will not be altered.
...

...
3.) I do not understand this statement.
......

A player has a killright against them for killing someone other than me, for sale. I kill said player, but did not buy the killright, nor was it activated. But that player was killed. Is the killright still there?

What if the killright was for killing me, I kill my killier, but did not activate the killright first. Is the killright still there?

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Bodega Cat
Expedition Spartica
#527 - 2012-10-12 16:21:06 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


One should not be target of a bounty just for being notorious.
It only promotes ALT posting, ALT killing, ALT anything and to do much, much less for the community.

Imagine this: Chribba with a permanent 10B bounty on his head, just because he's a good and known guy.


Sorry I didn't make myself clear enough.

I mean if bounty hunters start getting popular due to success rate etc...

They can work out side deals with people, start their own corp's etc.

Meaning, I put a bounty on someone, and i also post on the forums that if any bounty hunter rankXXX and above kills my target, and links me the kill mail, i'll give a bonus of XXX isk.
Singulis Pacifica
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#528 - 2012-10-12 16:21:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Singulis Pacifica
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I take it since nobody managed to reply to my questions, then they are all realistic?

Bodega Cat wrote:
If notoriety starts to find good bounty hunters, it could be interesting what kind of side deals they can work out with people and stuff as well.

It may actually inject more into the mercenary side of things than we think over time.


One should not be target of a bounty just for being notorious.
It only promotes ALT posting, ALT killing, ALT anything and to do much, much less for the community.

Imagine this: Chribba with a permanent 10B bounty on his head, just because he's a good and known guy.


They are as realistic as the fact that the sun comes up in the east and goes down in the west. What you pointed out is the weakness of CCP's proposal. Many players still want it as they see the great potential of a new system leading to more meaningful battles and stuff being blown up. And I too favor the new bounty hunter system, but yes. The flaws that you mentioned must be dealt with before it is implemented.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#529 - 2012-10-12 16:25:07 UTC
Singulis Pacifica wrote:
Alexander Renoir wrote:


I thought that the bounty system is administrated from CONCORD; the police in EVE. But now even good players will get bounties just for fun. THAT IS UNFAIR!
Keep the option to place bountys to REAL CRIMINALS with negative security rating .. not to someone who never played like an a$$hole!


Mmm, as much as I agree with you, the current system has a design flaw. In 0.0-sec, criminal acts are not seen as "criminal" 0.0 sec is 0.0 sec: lawless portion of space. However, defeating rats in 0.0 sec does reward players with a security status increase. As such, players that live in 0.0 sec for quite a while can potentially reach the maximum of 5.0 and then return to high-sec. If they then start to attack players illegally, then their rate will steadily drop, but the problem is that the ones that were attacked can not yet put a bounty on top of that person yet as the rating is still too high.

And CCP wants to make sure these players can have a bounty on their heads too. Which I can agree with.

Alexander Renoir wrote:

DevBlog wrote:

Bounty pools are eliminated and a portion returned to those that contributed to the pool if the target has been inactive (unsubscribed) for a long time.


You want unsubs from EVE? How long is this period that I have to unsub and play another game till the set bounty of my character is gone?


I believe CCP mentioned the server tests the account status every 2 hours or so, but I'm willing to bet that if you subscribe to the game or simply add 30 days through a plex, you may be able to unsubscribe, but the bounty will only be removed till after your remaining game-time expires.


The answer is FIVE months....

Source:
CCP Paradox wrote:
we're going to make it so you can't place bounty on inactive characters

I like that you still hate him though after all this time Blink

(I just realized I only replied to the first question)

.....
And if the character goes inactive after the bounty is placed, will it bounce back? If so, how long would they have to be inactive (as I can see that being an exploit to escape bounties). Lastly, what happens with all the current bounties?
.....
Basically every two hours or so, the bounty office will return/reimburse players with any bounty amount they set against an inactive character. (At the moment, a character must be on an account that has been inactive for 5 months).

Singulis Pacifica
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#530 - 2012-10-12 16:33:51 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


The answer is FIVE months....



cheers, edited my previous post accordingly.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#531 - 2012-10-12 16:35:40 UTC
Alexander Renoir wrote:
Why do you at CCP think that it would be a good idea to implement a new anonymous tool to be able to harass players, who never ever did criminal acts to others?

DevBlog wrote:

[...] bounties can now be placed on anyone, we’re removing the -1 security standing requirement currently in the bounty system.


Why this? Someone who never played offensive and just wants to play WITHOUT beeing a pirat, ganker or a$$hole and just wants to fly his missions, build ships or mines will now get bountys. WHY?
You state that:

CCP Punkturis wrote:

I don't see how that's different than just ganking him over and over without the bounty?


When there is no diference .. why this option to anonymous griefe a person with a positive security rating with bounty who never did criminal acts?
I never did criminals acts because I never wanted a bounty! Now every player is able to add an bounty to me although I never did harm him/her.

I thought that the bounty system is administrated from CONCORD; the police in EVE. But now even good players will get bounties just for fun. THAT makes no sense.
Keep the option to place bountys to REAL CRIMINALS with negative security rating .. not to someone who never played like an a$$hole!

DevBlog wrote:

Bounty pools are eliminated and a portion returned to those that contributed to the pool if the target has been inactive (unsubscribed) for a long time.


You want unsubs from EVE? How long is this period that I have to unsub and play another game till the set bounty of my character is gone?


Here is why you should be allowed to place bounties on a +5.0 sec status character:

The Sec status of a character in NO WAY determines how good or bad a character is. Until 2 months ago, I've had a sec status of 5.01 for about as long as I've played the game, despite being an extremely active PvPers (top 400 on BC). I've killed miners, and haulers, and caused billions of damage to offline POS's (I love shooting SMA's and CH and Assembly Arrays and seeing what pops out!!). I personally think it's unfair my targets, who, based on their hate-mail would love to put a bounty on me, cannot...

There are tons of highsec traders that margin scam, contract scam, station-trade scam, and the like... and it's absolutely ridiculous that you can't put a bounty on their head!!!

There are tons of Corporate Thieves that steal billions and trillions from their corp and/or alliance... and it's extremely unfair you can't put a bounty on their head....

And there are the trolls... on the forums, in local chat, in chat channels, etc... that just cannot shutup, that spew either vile or ideas so dumb it lowers your IQ just being exposed to it, and it's blasphemous that you can't put a bounty on their head because they don't have a negative sec status....

EVERYONE should be subjected to bounties.... and guess what, typically the people that get a bounty on their head, will deserve it!!!! (unlike now, where it's just a status symbol you put on yourself!!)!!!
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#532 - 2012-10-12 16:38:30 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:


2. When a corp or alliance is disbanded, all remaining bounties on it are returned to those who placed the bounties.



How much is returned in a case like this:

I place a 10 mil bounty on a corp. You place a 20 mil bounty on the same corp. 6 million is redeemed from the pool. Then the corp disbands.

Who gets how much back?

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#533 - 2012-10-12 16:38:54 UTC
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
Circumvention

A short story by Vyktor Abyss

As a dastardly member of the Gallente militia for several years, I woke up today to find a talentless, bile filled bloated gimp of the Caldari militia had placed a 10 billion ISK bounty on killing me..... Oh no!

But wait...This is good news though my friends, because for the last 3 months I have been manipulating the market for the fabled +1% Less CPU required for Energy Grid upgrades implant, by selling 10 of such implants per week to myself using an alt for 1 billion isk each (despite being able to purchase them from the militia LP store for under 1 million ISK each).

Being a rather redundant, useless implant, my 10 sales per week account for 99% of the volume traded in the last 3 months and so... thanks to the lovely rolling 3 month average price index CCP recently introduced I am now able to create a clone valued at 1 billion ISK on the server for 21m ISK (Sadly I have over 120m skillpoints so my basic clone is 20m) .

I then proceed to log in my alt who repeatedly pods my 1 billion+ ISK clones until all that Caldari militia pilots bounty pool is exhausted.

Final total is the loss of 10 implants and clones = 210m loss
My alt has made 20% of the pool for each clone killed = over 5b in bounty from the pool

Alas poor Vyktor for I knew him so well....

TL:DR - The moral of this story is people will still circumvent the bounty system by podding themselves in new clever ways (Sadly). Hopefully CCP has planned mechanics to counter this behaviour.

Cheers.

Considering the discussions of said manipulation tactics in regards to FW, and the fairly pointed reference made to stopping similar exploits, i'd say it's a safe bet.

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#534 - 2012-10-12 16:41:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Terrorfrodo wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:
Bear with me...


  1. I put a nice bounty on my alt.

  2. I get killrights on my alt.

  3. My alt in an expensive warp core stabbed tanked ship sits on a busy gate.

  4. I sell the killrights for a couple of millions.

  5. As soon as someone tries to engage, my alt warps off and cloaks for 15 minutes.

  6. I don't lose the killrights on my alt because he escaped, but I keep the isk.

  7. go back to 3



.. profit!

Killright scamming, I like it !

Fixed. A dev already clarified that you only keep the ISK if the killright is successfully converted into a kill. If the target survives its 15-minute suspect flag, the killright remains for sale and no ISK is transferred.


Unless I missed something, this is not correct.

You pay your ISK to purchase the kill right when you click to activate it.
If you kill the target the kill right goes away.
If you fail to kill the target, at the end of 15 minutes the kill right is available again for purchase.
I did not see any reference to a refund of ISK spent on a kill right if unsuccessful.

Edit: Not to say they wont eventually implement this, but I hope they don't. Kill mail baiting is an excellent new shady career, which can back fire if the bounty hunter knows what they are doing.

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#535 - 2012-10-12 16:44:21 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:


2. When a corp or alliance is disbanded, all remaining bounties on it are returned to those who placed the bounties.



How much is returned in a case like this:

I place a 10 mil bounty on a corp. You place a 20 mil bounty on the same corp. 6 million is redeemed from the pool. Then the corp disbands.

Who gets how much back?

That's a good question actually.
I would assume everyone gets a proper percentage back depending on how much they contributed to the pool.

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#536 - 2012-10-12 16:45:57 UTC
Singulis Pacifica wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I take it since nobody managed to reply to my questions, then they are all realistic?

Bodega Cat wrote:
If notoriety starts to find good bounty hunters, it could be interesting what kind of side deals they can work out with people and stuff as well.

It may actually inject more into the mercenary side of things than we think over time.


One should not be target of a bounty just for being notorious.
It only promotes ALT posting, ALT killing, ALT anything and to do much, much less for the community.

Imagine this: Chribba with a permanent 10B bounty on his head, just because he's a good and known guy.


They are as realistic as the fact that the sun comes up in the east and goes down in the west. What you pointed out is the weakness of CCP's proposal. Many players still want it as they see the great potential of a new system leading to more meaningful battles and stuff being blown up. And I too favor the new bounty hunter system, but yes. The flaws that you mentioned must be dealt with before it is implemented.


So what if chribba gets a 10b isk bounty on his head??? How is that really going to hurt Chribba??

Theoretical situation: What if I feel Chribba slighted me during a supercap trade.... enough so that I'm willing to GIVE AWAY 10 billion isk in the hopes someone will attack him more readily?? Why would this be a bad thing?? Chribba now has to explain why he has a 10b isk bounty, he has to be more careful when flying easy-to-gank or low gankcost-to-payout ratio ships. This is a GOOD thing... it encourages more suicide ganking, it creates a means of social retribution for your slights...

And so what if people post on an alt, or kill with an alt... Alts are easily identifiable, and if you're too chickenshit to post with your main because someone might put a bounty on your head for it... the people know what you have to say can be ignored and disregarded!!! And if they truly care, I'm sure they'll find a way to bounty your main!!
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#537 - 2012-10-12 16:51:37 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Singulis Pacifica wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I take it since nobody managed to reply to my questions, then they are all realistic?

Bodega Cat wrote:
If notoriety starts to find good bounty hunters, it could be interesting what kind of side deals they can work out with people and stuff as well.

It may actually inject more into the mercenary side of things than we think over time.


One should not be target of a bounty just for being notorious.
It only promotes ALT posting, ALT killing, ALT anything and to do much, much less for the community.

Imagine this: Chribba with a permanent 10B bounty on his head, just because he's a good and known guy.


They are as realistic as the fact that the sun comes up in the east and goes down in the west. What you pointed out is the weakness of CCP's proposal. Many players still want it as they see the great potential of a new system leading to more meaningful battles and stuff being blown up. And I too favor the new bounty hunter system, but yes. The flaws that you mentioned must be dealt with before it is implemented.


So what if chribba gets a 10b isk bounty on his head??? How is that really going to hurt Chribba??

Theoretical situation: What if I feel Chribba slighted me during a supercap trade.... enough so that I'm willing to GIVE AWAY 10 billion isk in the hopes someone will attack him more readily?? Why would this be a bad thing?? Chribba now has to explain why he has a 10b isk bounty, he has to be more careful when flying easy-to-gank or low gankcost-to-payout ratio ships. This is a GOOD thing... it encourages more suicide ganking, it creates a means of social retribution for your slights...

And so what if people post on an alt, or kill with an alt... Alts are easily identifiable, and if you're too chickenshit to post with your main because someone might put a bounty on your head for it... the people know what you have to say can be ignored and disregarded!!! And if they truly care, I'm sure they'll find a way to bounty your main!!


Furthermore, whats to stop someone from targeting someone like Chribba now if they feel the need so strongly?

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Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#538 - 2012-10-12 16:56:28 UTC
*Brofists*

As to the debate regarding placing bounties on positive security:

I'd kind of like to keep the mercenary aspects for this open, however given that the mandate for Concord is to protect the security related aspects of the various factions as a neutral party it may be prudent to gradiate some kind of handling fee based on secuirty.

Such that for each point in security above the old -1 value you need to add on a admin fee in order for Concord to place the puclic notifications. Whereas to help with security incentives and Concords responsibilities in terms of keeping some semblance of order these fees are waved in relation to targets equal to or below a -1 Security value.

Purely as an example as the values can be adjusted:

<= -1, No additional charge to a bounty being placed.
-1 to 0, 0.5M ISK handling fee,
0 to 1, 1.0M ISK handling fee,
1 to 2, 1.5 ISK handling fee,
2 to 3, 2.0M ISK handling fee ........ and so on.

Is this way everyone can have a bounty placed on them, but there are then additional costs to admisister bounty contracts against the more law abiding citizens.


Otherwise, really loving the blog.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
CCP Paradox
#539 - 2012-10-12 16:56:39 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Paradox
Ranger 1 wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:


2. When a corp or alliance is disbanded, all remaining bounties on it are returned to those who placed the bounties.



How much is returned in a case like this:

I place a 10 mil bounty on a corp. You place a 20 mil bounty on the same corp. 6 million is redeemed from the pool. Then the corp disbands.

Who gets how much back?

That's a good question actually.
I would assume everyone gets a proper percentage back depending on how much they contributed to the pool.



At the moment, 80% is returned from the contribution you made. It's last come, first-served. This means the people that most recently placed a bounty are paid their share first, and so on until the bounty pool is empty.

In your example, you would get back 6.4 Million. You were the first person to give them a bounty, they got killed because of it. So you paid the bounty hunter appropriately.

(Disclaimer on the 80%, nothing is yet finalized, hence the dev blog for feedback and discussion)

CCP Paradox | EVE QA | Team Phenomenon

Space Magician
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#540 - 2012-10-12 16:58:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Quote:
You want unsubs from EVE? How long is this period that I have to unsub and play another game till the set bounty of my character is gone?


I believe the period of time before you are considered inactive is to be unsubbed for 5 months.

Or you could just stay in high sec and avoid flying ships that, along with the 20% bounty pay out, would be profitable to gank.

Perhaps you would understand this better if you considered that a "Bounty" (usually, but not always, issued by a legal department) could just as easily be called a "Contract" (as in a mobster put a hit out on a reputable citizen that is causing him problems).

In EVE issuing bounties is a private affair, not a Concord sponsored affair. A bounty being present in no way deters them from following their normal mandate.

A kill right is another story, but if you keep your nose clean you don't have to worry about that... ever.

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