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Dev blog: The Retribution of Team Super Friends

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#501 - 2012-10-12 14:56:05 UTC
Singulis Pacifica wrote:
Roime wrote:


If a player is new, he can only fly and afford cheap ships, and probably in hisec. As you only get bounties worth a portion of the destroyed ship, it makes no sense to suicide him.


Unlike a kill-right, a bounty has no expiration time for as long as the player remains an active player. This means a bounty may not hinder him initially, but it will when he acquires more expensive ships. Again, this is a from of griefing players which I do NOT appreciate.


But he is not new then anymore, so there is no issue.

.
Optimo Sebiestor
The New Eden School of trade
Organization of Skill Extracting Corporations
#502 - 2012-10-12 14:58:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Optimo Sebiestor
Singulis Pacifica wrote:


Snip.



"As always, we want your constructive feedback and thoughts in the comments below. -
- CCP Gargant"

you talk like the thing is set in stone already. migth be better to instead of talking down on everyone, you actually gave some constructive feedback on what you thougths are. your comming of awfully whiny Roll
Ristlin Wakefield
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#503 - 2012-10-12 14:59:54 UTC
Salpad wrote:
Natalie Cerulean wrote:
While part of me was hoping for a system in which bounties meant that someone could be shot anywhere I suppose this is a good way to protect the "pure" carebears while at the same time the "buyable" kill rights mean that even if they are just a weekend warrior in terms of pvp they can still be attacked in high sec.


Keep in mind, if somebody puts a bounty on old Salpad the Carebear (with no good cause for doing so), and it meant I'm killable in high-esc, then I flat out wouldn't be able to undock in anything except shuttles (and with a jump clone with no implants). It would severely cramp my style, and I'd strongly be tempted to quit playing forever, not because it's unfair, but because a kill-rights-in-high-sec on me bounty would make the game completely unplayable for me.

And I'm not some immature rage-quitter. I'm simply saying, if I become unable to undock, then I will unsubscribe and never come back.


You are NOT killable in high sec unless for some reason Salpad the Carebear is actually a murderer in disguise and have committed countless atrocities in high sec to earn several kill rights. At that point, Salpad the Carebear should be careful about undocking if he also has a bounty on his head.

I have a lover, her name is EVE. I see her every night and all she asks in return is that I have a pilot's license.
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#504 - 2012-10-12 15:00:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Terrorfrodo wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:
Bear with me...


  1. I put a nice bounty on my alt.

  2. I get killrights on my alt.

  3. My alt in an expensive warp core stabbed tanked ship sits on a busy gate.

  4. I sell the killrights for a couple of millions.

  5. As soon as someone tries to engage, my alt warps off and cloaks for 15 minutes.

  6. I don't lose the killrights on my alt because he escaped, but I keep the isk.

  7. go back to 3



.. profit!

Killright scamming, I like it !

Fixed. A dev already clarified that you only keep the ISK if the killright is successfully converted into a kill. If the target survives its 15-minute suspect flag, the killright remains for sale and no ISK is transferred.

False.

CCP Tallest wrote:
4.) If they get away, the kill right is not "used up" and the ISK stays with the seller. Buyer beware.


There is absolutely no reason to "fix" this as it is not a problem and is not broken.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Ristlin Wakefield
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#505 - 2012-10-12 15:01:34 UTC
Roime wrote:
Singulis Pacifica wrote:
Roime wrote:


If a player is new, he can only fly and afford cheap ships, and probably in hisec. As you only get bounties worth a portion of the destroyed ship, it makes no sense to suicide him.


Unlike a kill-right, a bounty has no expiration time for as long as the player remains an active player. This means a bounty may not hinder him initially, but it will when he acquires more expensive ships. Again, this is a from of griefing players which I do NOT appreciate.


But he is not new then anymore, so there is no issue.



People are just mad they won't be able to be jerks on the weekend and then mission carefree during the week in their Navy-issue faction/officer fitted ships.

I have a lover, her name is EVE. I see her every night and all she asks in return is that I have a pilot's license.
Ristlin Wakefield
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#506 - 2012-10-12 15:05:18 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:
Bear with me...


  1. I put a nice bounty on my alt.

  2. I get killrights on my alt.

  3. My alt in an expensive warp core stabbed tanked ship sits on a busy gate.

  4. I sell the killrights for a couple of millions.

  5. As soon as someone tries to engage, my alt warps off and cloaks for 15 minutes.

  6. I don't lose the killrights on my alt because he escaped, but I keep the isk.

  7. go back to 3



.. profit!

Killright scamming, I like it !

Fixed. A dev already clarified that you only keep the ISK if the killright is successfully converted into a kill. If the target survives its 15-minute suspect flag, the killright remains for sale and no ISK is transferred.

False.

CCP Tallest wrote:
4.) If they get away, the kill right is not "used up" and the ISK stays with the seller. Buyer beware.


There is absolutely no reason to "fix" this as it is not a problem and is not broken.


The time and effort to set up that situation makes it only worthwhile if the bounty is 1 billion + to make the 50+ million for the killright seem "worth" it. As a future bounty hunter, I think its a fair risk. There's a chance the target doesn't get away, eh?:P

I have a lover, her name is EVE. I see her every night and all she asks in return is that I have a pilot's license.
None ofthe Above
#507 - 2012-10-12 15:10:19 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
It is occurring to me that by refunding the bounty after the character has been inactive for x time, you are actually creating a financial incentive, once you have a bounty on someone, to hound them out of the game.

Is that really a good idea?

I get not allowing the placement of bounties on inactive characters, but this refund seems like a bad idea. Maybe it just stays in case the character reactivates. Or the bounties only work for X (six?) months in any case, and unused portion are returned whether or not the character is active.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Bodega Cat
Expedition Spartica
#508 - 2012-10-12 15:10:40 UTC
If notoriety starts to find good bounty hunters, it could be interesting what kind of side deals they can work out with people and stuff as well.

It may actually inject more into the mercenary side of things than we think over time.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#509 - 2012-10-12 15:13:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
So, to discuss prioritization of multiple killrights and bounties ::

#1 - Killrights - My initial reaction is they should go from oldest to newest (so that people with oldest kill rights don't waste their time) but that would also mean that someone could periodically "gank their alt" before ganking others in order to spam the highest payout to block the other person from getting a kill right opportunity. So yes, cheapest to most expensive makes sense.

#2 - Bounties - That's a pretty tough one... I guess the question really comes down to the idea of, if I put a bounty on someone, do I really care "when" my bounty gets used, or just that my bounty is getting consumed. I think there is some satisfaction in knowing when your bounty was collected by a killer. I guess the most sensible way is to focus on biggest payout to smallest payout priority, as you said.

Where I am.
Ristlin Wakefield
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#510 - 2012-10-12 15:15:33 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Schmell wrote:
Not sure if someone mentioned it yet, but killright trading system looks exploitable like hell.

So basically you are pirate or suicide ganker and somebody sells a killright on you. You log in your alt, buy killright and kill yourself in a shuttle or something. If killright clears after it, well it is over.

Any comments?


Yes, if the carebear give's the kill right away in blind stupidity, you can easily get out of it with an alt.

If, however, he has a brain and charges for the kill right, you are giving him at least partial compensation to get out of it.


Also, if you are a suicide ganker or pirate there is a chance you will have several dozen killrights on you. If they each cost several million, well you get the picture. The inconvenience of having to clear your name, plus the money the pirate has to pay to do it, helps balance it out.

The current system has some holes, but its good enough until we can designate who receives the killright.

I have a lover, her name is EVE. I see her every night and all she asks in return is that I have a pilot's license.
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#511 - 2012-10-12 15:17:43 UTC
Ristlin Wakefield wrote:
Iam Widdershins wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:
Bear with me...


  1. I put a nice bounty on my alt.

  2. I get killrights on my alt.

  3. My alt in an expensive warp core stabbed tanked ship sits on a busy gate.

  4. I sell the killrights for a couple of millions.

  5. As soon as someone tries to engage, my alt warps off and cloaks for 15 minutes.

  6. I don't lose the killrights on my alt because he escaped, but I keep the isk.

  7. go back to 3



.. profit!

Killright scamming, I like it !

Fixed. A dev already clarified that you only keep the ISK if the killright is successfully converted into a kill. If the target survives its 15-minute suspect flag, the killright remains for sale and no ISK is transferred.

False.

CCP Tallest wrote:
4.) If they get away, the kill right is not "used up" and the ISK stays with the seller. Buyer beware.


There is absolutely no reason to "fix" this as it is not a problem and is not broken.


The time and effort to set up that situation makes it only worthwhile if the bounty is 1 billion + to make the 50+ million for the killright seem "worth" it. As a future bounty hunter, I think its a fair risk. There's a chance the target doesn't get away, eh?:P


You are correct, I never said it is an exploit. It is just an interesting new way to scam people out of their isk. In order to be successfull you need to do this in a lowsec system because peeps cannot legally shoot you in highsec, so there is a certain amount of isk involved.

Still it is a nice new way to make isk.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Ristlin Wakefield
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#512 - 2012-10-12 15:18:31 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
It is occurring to me that by refunding the bounty after the character has been inactive for x time, you are actually creating a financial incentive, once you have a bounty on someone, to hound them out of the game.

Is that really a good idea?

I get not allowing the placement of bounties on inactive characters, but this refund seems like a bad idea. Maybe it just stays in case the character reactivates. Or the bounties only work for X (six?) months in any case, and unused portion are returned whether or not the character is active.


You forget that if the person is in high-sec, the bounty hunter would require a killright or else earn a killright in return and lose a ship due to Concord.

I have a lover, her name is EVE. I see her every night and all she asks in return is that I have a pilot's license.
Ristlin Wakefield
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#513 - 2012-10-12 15:21:33 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
So, to discuss prioritization of multiple killrights and bounties ::

#1 - Killrights - My initial reaction is they should go from oldest to newest (so that people with oldest kill rights don't waste their time) but that would also mean that someone could periodically "gank their alt" before ganking others in order to spam the highest payout to block the other person from getting a kill right opportunity. So yes, cheapest to most expensive makes sense.

#2 - Bounties - That's a pretty tough one... I guess the question really comes down to the idea of, if I put a bounty on someone, do I really care "when" my bounty gets used, or just that my bounty is getting consumed. I think there is some satisfaction in knowing when your bounty was collected by a killer. I guess the most sensible way is to focus on biggest payout to smallest payout priority, as you said.


The new system makes getting a bounty on your head more than just an annoyance. High sec will be dangerous for criminals with good bounty hunters on the prowl. I can't wait to see how it plays out! I look forward to a career in bounty hunting.

I have a lover, her name is EVE. I see her every night and all she asks in return is that I have a pilot's license.
Herr Hammer Draken
#514 - 2012-10-12 15:27:26 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Megan DeMonet wrote:
do you guys not get it, YOU DO NOT GET 20% OF THE BOUNTY! you get 20% of what you destroy.

"The bounty payout is based on a percentage of the Total Loss, so the bounty received will always be considerably less than the actual Total Loss value. The base number we’re going for right now is 20%. This means that if you blow something up worth 100 million, then 20 million is paid out in bounty (or whatever is left in the bounty pool if less than 20 million)."<----copied and pasted

Yes I get it.

Bounty: 1b
Freighter: 1b
Bounty Reward: 1b * 20% = 200m
Platinum Insurance: 1b * 70% = 700m [Pays 100% and costs 30%]

1. Alt kills freighter and gets 200m bounty. Insurance pays me 700m. My loss: 1b - 200m - 700m = 100m.
2. Repeat step #1 four more times. Loss: 500m (less actually thanks to salvage). Bounty gone.

Ergo, let me pay to remove the bounty

[Of course insurance is not in step with market prices, but the basic idea is the same.]


I am going to have to start building a lot of freighters!

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Ristlin Wakefield
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#515 - 2012-10-12 15:37:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ristlin Wakefield
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Megan DeMonet wrote:
do you guys not get it, YOU DO NOT GET 20% OF THE BOUNTY! you get 20% of what you destroy.

"The bounty payout is based on a percentage of the Total Loss, so the bounty received will always be considerably less than the actual Total Loss value. The base number we’re going for right now is 20%. This means that if you blow something up worth 100 million, then 20 million is paid out in bounty (or whatever is left in the bounty pool if less than 20 million)."<----copied and pasted

Yes I get it.

Bounty: 1b
Freighter: 1b
Bounty Reward: 1b * 20% = 200m
Platinum Insurance: 1b * 70% = 700m [Pays 100% and costs 30%]

1. Alt kills freighter and gets 200m bounty. Insurance pays me 700m. My loss: 1b - 200m - 700m = 100m.
2. Repeat step #1 four more times. Loss: 500m (less actually thanks to salvage). Bounty gone.

Ergo, let me pay to remove the bounty

[Of course insurance is not in step with market prices, but the basic idea is the same.]


I am going to have to start building a lot of freighters!


Actually, on the first post the dev mentions calculating insurance as a factor -- but he did not reveal the actual formula for obvious reasons.

"The amount paid out from the bounty pool upon a kill is now based on the ISK loss inflicted on the target. This is similar to the system used in FW for calculating LP payout, i.e. finding a Total Loss value based on the value of items lost (plus some insurance calculation finagling). We’re making this system a bit more robust and harder to manipulate, but we’re not telling you how ;)"

Since a freighter cannot equip mods and it gets quite a good amount of money back from insurance, its likely NOT going to be viable method to wipe out the bounty.

I have a lover, her name is EVE. I see her every night and all she asks in return is that I have a pilot's license.
Bodega Cat
Expedition Spartica
#516 - 2012-10-12 15:45:29 UTC
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
Circumvention

A short story by Vyktor Abyss

As a dastardly member of the Gallente militia for several years, I woke up today to find a talentless, bile filled bloated gimp of the Caldari militia had placed a 10 billion ISK bounty on killing me..... Oh no!

But wait...This is good news though my friends, because for the last 3 months I have been manipulating the market for the fabled +1% Less CPU required for Energy Grid upgrades implant, by selling 10 of such implants per week to myself using an alt for 1 billion isk each (despite being able to purchase them from the militia LP store for under 1 million ISK each).

Being a rather redundant, useless implant, my 10 sales per week account for 99% of the volume traded in the last 3 months and so... thanks to the lovely rolling 3 month average price index CCP recently introduced I am now able to create a clone valued at 1 billion ISK on the server for 21m ISK (Sadly I have over 120m skillpoints so my basic clone is 20m) .

I then proceed to log in my alt who repeatedly pods my 1 billion+ ISK clones until all that Caldari militia pilots bounty pool is exhausted.

Final total is the loss of 10 implants and clones = 210m loss
My alt has made 20% of the pool for each clone killed = over 5b in bounty from the pool

Alas poor Vyktor for I knew him so well....

TL:DR - The moral of this story is people will still circumvent the bounty system by podding themselves in new clever ways (Sadly). Hopefully CCP has planned mechanics to counter this behaviour.

Cheers.


Ahhh, finally a good example of breakage.
Singulis Pacifica
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#517 - 2012-10-12 15:50:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Singulis Pacifica
Roime wrote:


But he is not new then anymore, so there is no issue.



Except that he is now a target in his more expensive ship while doing incursions for example. It severely undermines the PvE aspect of the game, which not the way it should be. PvP and PvE are completely different mindsets. Again, I'd favor the immunity option, but I'd be willing to accept a bounty cap system depending on PvP activities.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#518 - 2012-10-12 15:53:09 UTC
There's no bounty hunting in this expansion.

If you really wanted bounty hunting transferrable killrights would transfer only to the person who bought the killright, not activate a global suspect flag.

Why you settled on this idea is entirely beyond me.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Bodega Cat
Expedition Spartica
#519 - 2012-10-12 15:54:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Bodega Cat
When you buy and activate kill rights, does it flag them as a suspect so your friends can coordinate in on the attack as well?

If not, i could see the value of warp core stabs going up a lot, as it will be much more typical for pirates to field them to ensure they can always slip away from a bad 1v1 matchup.

At best, in the above scenario, your friends could just perma bump so the mark can never allign (not always a sure thing)...
Singulis Pacifica
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#520 - 2012-10-12 15:54:53 UTC
Optimo Sebiestor wrote:


you talk like the thing is set in stone already. migth be better to instead of talking down on everyone, you actually gave some constructive feedback on what you thougths are. your comming of awfully whiny Roll


And this coming from you that does not provide any constructive feedback at all? Hah.
If you had taken the time to read other posts I wrote down, then you wouldn't have made this pointless remark.